The problem of evil

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

DPMartin
Posts: 635
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:11 am

Re: The problem of evil

Post by DPMartin »

bahman wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 3:09 pm
Adam and Eve were imposed into that condition. They were created and then asked to follow the word of God.


She was naive. She was deceived. What you are saying about that she could ask is about a person who could doubt in that situation. She simply didn't doubt otherwise she wouldn't eat the fruit. That was not the end of the world.
no she wasn't:

Gen 3:2  And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 
Gen 3:3  But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 

she didn't make sure she knew God's Word plus Adam was there somewhere.

she toke it upon herself to make a judgment that cost everything in light of why God made man. Adam was at fault also.

What you are talking about? I didn't make such an agreement when I was borned.
no one is forcing you to continue living the life you've received, correct? you do take you next breath, its not pumped down your throat.
Which type of argument is this. Even if I don't judge good and evil by my way I am still in the cursed world.
but you do, without agreeing to God's Judgement of good and evil then you continue to go but your own judgement. hence now is your time to come to God. in this context.

if you believe and trust God's Word then Jesus is that deliverance from being condemned.
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: The problem of evil

Post by bahman »

DPMartin wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 2:43 pm
bahman wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 3:09 pm
Adam and Eve were imposed into that condition. They were created and then asked to follow the word of God.


She was naive. She was deceived. What you are saying about that she could ask is about a person who could doubt in that situation. She simply didn't doubt otherwise she wouldn't eat the fruit. That was not the end of the world.
no she wasn't:

Gen 3:2  And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 
Gen 3:3  But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 

she didn't make sure she knew God's Word plus Adam was there somewhere.

she toke it upon herself to make a judgment that cost everything in light of why God made man. Adam was at fault also.
But you forgot to read the rest: Gen3:4 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. Gen 3:5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.
DPMartin wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 2:43 pm

What you are talking about? I didn't make such an agreement when I was borned.
no one is forcing you to continue living the life you've received, correct? you do take you next breath, its not pumped down your throat.
Are you offering me to commit suicide? But I don't have any right to my life too since it belongs to God.
DPMartin wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 2:43 pm
Which type of argument is this. Even if I don't judge good and evil by my way I am still in the cursed world.
but you do, without agreeing to God's Judgement of good and evil then you continue to go but your own judgement. hence now is your time to come to God. in this context.

if you believe and trust God's Word then Jesus is that deliverance from being condemned.
That is for the far future after I die. I have problems from now to then living in the cursed world.
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 14706
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: Right here, a little less busy.

Re: The problem of evil

Post by henry quirk »

bahman,
What I am saying is that we feel responsible for those who are not wise or mature enough trying to guide them. We don't say that we don't care.
Oh, sure...my 15 year old: good kid, bright kid, but still a kid...there's a whole whack of stuff he an't doin' cuz -- even though he wants to -- I know better.

But this doesn't, I think, translate to the relationship between God and man. Certainly, I'm not God: I don't have His perspective or His power; at the same time, though, finite as I am, I do have a perspective, I do have power. I'm a free will. I have creative and causal power. I self-direct, self-rely, and am self-responsible. In a deterministic universe, this is no small thing. I wasn't made to kneel or follow. And I wasn't made to blame the other guy for stuff he had no hand in, even if the other guy is God.
User avatar
iambiguous
Posts: 7208
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:23 pm

Re: The problem of evil

Post by iambiguous »

henry quirk wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 4:24 pm Certainly, I'm not God: I don't have His perspective or His power; at the same time, though, finite as I am, I do have a perspective, I do have power.


So, his God has a perspective, his God has power. But, when push comes to shove, he flat-out admits that in regard to God creating the planet Earth resulting in "an endless procession of earthquakes and volcanic eruptions and tornadoes and hurricanes and great floods and great droughts and great fires and deadly viral and bacterial plagues and miscarriages and hundreds and hundreds of medical and mental afflictions and extinction events...making life on Earth a living hell for countless millions of men, women and children down through the ages..."?

Well, he "just knows" that his God is not evil Himself for bringing this about. Again, even while admitting that there is certainly a vast gap between what he thinks he knows about his God's motivations and intentions and what his God's actual motivations and intentions actually are.

At the same time, he has perspective, he has power. And while this is "somehow" linked to the perspective and power of this truly ambiguous God, he can't tell you how. All he "knows" is that this God created him to "follow the dictates of Reason and Nature". And even though this same God created others who, in following the dictates of Reason and Nature, in turn, come to conclusions wholly conflicting with his, he "just knows" that his own moral and political convictions reflect the One True Path to...to what exactly?

He has no full understanding of his God and Evil when mere mortals die either. Is there a Judgment Day? He doesn't know. Is there an eternal reward or punishment? He doesn't know.

He just knows that if you don't think exactly like he does about "life, liberty, and property", you are almost certainly a "dumb motherfucker". Also, a "moron, asswipe, pinhead, degenerate, idiot, deficient, nutjob, loon and liar." Diseased even. A monster.

Just ask him
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: The problem of evil

Post by bahman »

henry quirk wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 4:24 pm bahman,
What I am saying is that we feel responsible for those who are not wise or mature enough trying to guide them. We don't say that we don't care.
Oh, sure...my 15 year old: good kid, bright kid, but still a kid...there's a whole whack of stuff he an't doin' cuz -- even though he wants to -- I know better.

But this doesn't, I think, translate to the relationship between God and man. Certainly, I'm not God: I don't have His perspective or His power; at the same time, though, finite as I am, I do have a perspective, I do have power. I'm a free will. I have creative and causal power. I self-direct, self-rely, and am self-responsible. In a deterministic universe, this is no small thing. I wasn't made to kneel or follow. And I wasn't made to blame the other guy for stuff he had no hand in, even if the other guy is God.
It does translate to the relation between God and man. Just exclude yourself from the picture to see how unmature is the behavior of humans. Human still needs education and we were left without any education all time along.
seeds
Posts: 2143
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:31 pm

Re: The problem of evil

Post by seeds »

seeds wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 12:05 am
bahman wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 8:07 pm
That is at best a claim. What if I claim that good is the result of low human consciousness.
Then I would say that you are full of crap (even more than usual).

In my prior post, I suggested that these dunce-capped, bone-headed idiots...

Image

...function at an extremely low level of consciousness which results in a hatred of black people and the committing of heinous acts such as this...

Image

...and this...

Image

So, please show me what exactly is "good" about the low consciousness of racist white people?
bahman wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 8:07 pm The person who is all-wise has the right to be a good racist.
Apparently, bahman, you and I have a completely different interpretation of what being "all-wise" means.

Stop making ridiculous statements.
bahman wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 3:21 pm You are equating ignorance with evil. Evil is permissible given the situation. Ignorance should be avoided at all costs.
No, bahman, I am offering a plausible explanation for the existence of so-called "evilness" in humans.

And it is based on the proposition that humans are awakened into life on earth with an "attenuated" level of consciousness that makes being a human feel "natural" to us, as was pointed out to VA in an alternate thread...
seeds wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:23 pm It seems quite obvious (to me, anyway) that humans are born with what appears to be a "fixed" [and attenuated] level of consciousness that makes being a human feel natural to us...

Image

And that would be in the same way that cats or dogs, for example, are born with a "fixed" [and even more attenuated] level of consciousness that makes being a cat or a dog feel natural to them...

Image
Moreover, it also keeps us from noticing how utterly strange it is to be topsy-turvy to each other while standing on a ball suspended in a vast spatial dimension...

Image

I'm talking about a ball that not only flies laterally through space at approximately 67,000 miles per hour, but a ball upon which vast oceans, and huge human metropolises are spun around-and-around - (upside-down from each other) - in a rotisserie cycle that only takes a mere 24 hours to complete.

It is all totally bizarre, yet humans are basically oblivious to what's really going on.

And the point is that the general level of consciousness that humans are "programmed" to function at in order for our strange setting and circumstances to, again, feel "natural" to us,...

...comes with the unfortunate by-product of causing many of us to be completely unaware (unconscious) of just how evil our actions can be.

For example, the state of mind of these folks,...

Image

...who felt completely justified in murdering and mutilating Emmett Till (the 14 year old black child shown at the top of this post) because he allegedly "whistled" at the white woman on the right hand side of the above picture.

Sure, there may be an element of "ignorance" involved, but such cold-heartedness demonstrates a near animal level of consciousness and a firm residence on the "basement rung" of the illustration I provided in a prior post, which, in turn, results in what we think of as "evilness" in humans.

Indeed, this is all summed-up quite nicely in what Jesus allegedly uttered while dying on the cross:
"...Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do..."

By the way, the Adam and Eve story is nothing more than mythological fantasy.

Furthermore, if you were hoping that Immanual Can was going to discuss the consequences of A and E's alleged sin in Eden, he has already stuck his foot in his mouth in an alternate thread by making the following statements to Belinda...
seeds wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 7:08 pm
Belinda wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 11:18 am The present economic wealth of Europe and the US is founded upon and still benefits from the slave trade
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 1:08 pm Do you want to make children guilty for what their distant forefathers chose to do? In what court would that be considered "justice"? :shock:

You don't become guilty by being born. That's ridiculous...

...So I call "hogwash" on that.
Wow, that's one of the most brazenly hypocritical things I have ever heard a Christian say.

Indeed, you have just inadvertently (and correctly) admitted that the very premise upon which Christianity is founded...

(i.e., "original sin")

...is not only ridiculous, but "hogwash."
He, of course, tried to weasel his way out of that faux pas (but failed miserably).
_______
Last edited by seeds on Mon Jun 06, 2022 3:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 14706
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: Right here, a little less busy.

Re: The problem of evil

Post by henry quirk »

bahman,
It does translate to the relation between God and man. Just exclude yourself from the picture to see how unmature is the behavior of humans. Human still needs education and we were left without any education all time along.
You condemn the lot for the actions of comparatively few. Most men, most of the time, while not saints, aren't sinners either.

As for education (in context, moral education): as I say, even the slaver knows slavery is wrong.

We aren't ignorant or stupid or particularly, unnecessarily, violent; some of us, though, are weak.

There's no educatin' a body out of a lack of character (and: no, that ain't God's fault either).
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: The problem of evil

Post by bahman »

seeds wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 6:59 pm
seeds wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 12:05 am
bahman wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 8:07 pm
That is at best a claim. What if I claim that good is the result of low human consciousness.
Then I would say that you are full of crap (even more than usual).

In my prior post, I suggested that these dunce-capped, bone-headed idiots...

Image

...function at an extremely low level of consciousness which results in a hatred of black people and the committing of heinous acts such as this...

Image

...and this...

Image

So, please show me what exactly is "good" about the low consciousness of racist white people?
bahman wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 8:07 pm The person who is all-wise has the right to be a good racist.
Apparently, bahman, you and I have a completely different interpretation of what being "all-wise" means.

Stop making ridiculous statements.
bahman wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 3:21 pm You are equating ignorance with evil. Evil is permissible given the situation. Ignorance should be avoided at all costs.
No, bahman, I am offering a plausible explanation for the existence so-called "evilness" in humans.

And it is based on the proposition that humans are awakened into life on earth with an "attenuated" level of consciousness that makes being a human feel "natural" to us, as was pointed out to VA in an alternate thread...
seeds wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:23 pm It seems quite obvious (to me, anyway) that humans are born with what appears to be a "fixed" [and attenuated] level of consciousness that makes being a human feel natural to us...

Image

And that would be in the same way that cats or dogs, for example, are born with a "fixed" [and even more attenuated] level of consciousness that makes being a cat or a dog feel natural to them...

Image
Moreover, it also keeps us from noticing how utterly strange it is to be topsy-turvy to each other while standing on a ball suspended in a vast spatial dimension...

Image

I'm talking about a ball that not only flies laterally through space at approximately 67,000 miles per hour, but a ball upon which vast oceans, and huge human metropolises are spun around-and-around - (upside-down from each other) - in a rotisserie cycle that only takes a mere 24 hours to complete.

It is all totally bizarre, yet humans are basically oblivious to what's really going on.

And the point is that the general level of consciousness that humans are "programmed" to function at in order for our strange setting and circumstances to, again, feel "natural" to us,...

...comes with the unfortunate by-product of causing many of us to be completely unaware (unconscious) of just how evil our actions can be.

For example, the state of mind of these folks,...

Image

...who felt completely justified in murdering and mutilating Emmit Till (the 14 year old black child shown at the top of this post) because he allegedly "whistled" at the white woman on the right hand side of the above picture.

Sure, there may be an element of "ignorance" involved, but such cold-heartedness demonstrates a near animal level of consciousness and a firm residence on the "basement rung" of the illustration I provided in a prior post, which, in turn, results in what we think of as "evilness" in humans.

Indeed, this is all summed-up quite nicely in what Jesus allegedly uttered while dying on the cross:
"...Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do..."

By the way, the Adam and Eve story is nothing more than mythological fantasy.

Furthermore, if you were hoping that Immanual Can was going to discuss the consequences of A and E's alleged sin in Eden, he has already stuck his foot in his mouth in an alternate thread by making the following statements to Belinda...
seeds wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 7:08 pm
Belinda wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 11:18 am The present economic wealth of Europe and the US is founded upon and still benefits from the slave trade
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 1:08 pm Do you want to make children guilty for what their distant forefathers chose to do? In what court would that be considered "justice"? :shock:

You don't become guilty by being born. That's ridiculous...

...So I call "hogwash" on that.
Wow, that's one of the most brazenly hypocritical things I have ever heard a Christian say.

Indeed, you have just inadvertently (and correctly) admitted that the very premise upon which Christianity is founded...

(i.e., "original sin")

...is not only ridiculous, but "hogwash."
He, of course, tried to weasel his way out of that faux pas (but failed miserably).
_______
Think of killing. It is evil. But think of a person who lives with locked-in syndrome. Killing him/her is allowed if he/she wants it. So you see that evil is permissible sometimes.
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: The problem of evil

Post by bahman »

henry quirk wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:18 pm bahman,
It does translate to the relation between God and man. Just exclude yourself from the picture to see how unmature is the behavior of humans. Human still needs education and we were left without any education all time along.
You condemn the lot for the actions of comparatively few. Most men, most of the time, while not saints, aren't sinners either.

As for education (in context, moral education): as I say, even the slaver knows slavery is wrong.

We aren't ignorant or stupid or particularly, unnecessarily, violent; some of us, though, are weak.

There's no educatin' a body out of a lack of character (and: no, that ain't God's fault either).
So you think that slaver thinks that slavery is wrong yet he/she practices it.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22257
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: The problem of evil

Post by Immanuel Can »

Slavery is dead, is it?

Here's Douglas Murray, speaking common sense, and getting the case right.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTaRew8uDZU
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 14706
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: Right here, a little less busy.

Re: The problem of evil

Post by henry quirk »

So you think that slaver thinks that slavery is wrong yet he/she practices it.
Yep, I know, as fact, the slaver knows slavery is wrong (if he thought it were peachy-keen, he'd have no problem bein' a slave himself).

No, the slaver knows he is his own; knows his life, liberty, and property are his; knows it would be wrong for someone to leash him. His sin, so to speak, is refusin' to respect that the other guy has the same right to himself.

-----
Slavery is dead, is it?
❓

Of course not...who said it was?
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: The problem of evil

Post by bahman »

henry quirk wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:52 pm
So you think that slaver thinks that slavery is wrong yet he/she practices it.
Yep, I know, as fact, the slaver knows slavery is wrong (if he thought it were peachy-keen, he'd have no problem bein' a slave himself).

No, the slaver knows he is his own; knows his life, liberty, and property are his; knows it would be wrong for someone to leash him. His sin, so to speak, is refusin' to respect that the other guy has the same right to himself.
Do you think that slaver who refuses the right of others needs education?
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 14706
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: Right here, a little less busy.

Re: The problem of evil

Post by henry quirk »

Do you think that slaver who refuses the right of others needs education?
❓

No. He needs a bullet in the chest and another in the head.
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: The problem of evil

Post by bahman »

henry quirk wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 8:30 pm
Do you think that slaver who refuses the right of others needs education?
❓

No. He needs a bullet in the chest and another in the head.
Now, you are not making any sense!
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 14706
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: Right here, a little less busy.

Re: The problem of evil

Post by henry quirk »

bahman wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 8:37 pm
henry quirk wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 8:30 pm
Do you think that slaver who refuses the right of others needs education?
❓

No. He needs a bullet in the chest and another in the head.
Now, you are not making any sense!
❓

Tell me which is more sensible...

End the low-down piece of crap who leashes others.

Educate the low-down piece of crap who leashes others.

In the first: the problem is solved.

In the second: how in hell is the problem solved? You would do what? Slap his wrist and teach him what he already knows? Forgive him his sins and have him say the Rosary?

Really, how do you educate pond scum out of sumthin' he already knows is full-out, no holds barred, wrong?

No. You kill the slaver, full stop, do not pass go.

End him.
Post Reply