bahman wrote: ↑Fri May 20, 2022 3:33 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 10:00 pm
bahman wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 9:45 pm
Deceptive! That is absurd. It is a matter of fact.
Okay, you can say they're being "deceptive and absurd." But you don't have an answer for them, do you? You don't have proof that "movement" or "eating" are real things...it's just that, to you, they look that way. But the Hindu is going to say, "Of course they look that way to you...you are experiencing
maya."
It is a fact. Don't eat and you die. How do they prove that Maya is real?
Well, I agree with you that their case is implausible. But they do, themselves, believe it, I think. Their religious explanation of suffering requires several parts, working in relationship: suffering,
maya, reincarnation, caste,
karma, dharma (duty), Cosmic Spirit, desire, and the unreality of all matter, among other things. And no part of that can be pulled out of the others without the whole thing falling apart, because each explains some key question caused by the others.
For example, why is reincarnation necessary to believe in? Because suffering (
samsara) is so evident, and justice is apparently absent in one life. How is justice achieved in many lives? By
karma, transfered moral praise or blame from one incarnation to the next, so that justice is achieved over the entire cycle of lives, even when it's not evident in one life. What does this mean for the next life? Caste: you will be reincarnated at the level of karma one generated in the last life, oblivious to one's arrival. How do I improve that? Do your duty (
dharma) at your caste level, and you will improve. How do I escape samsara? Repress desire until you realize all is
maya, abandon desire, and become enlightened. Then you can escape to Hindu paradise, soul-extinction or Nirvana through being an enlightened one...you will be off the wheel of reincarnations, of
samsara...
It's all tied together in Eastern thought. All of it is required for any of it to work.
Is there a change when they find an answer to a question too?
It depends on what you mean by "change." Does the mind change? Yes. Does the physical reality change? No, because it's all illusion in the first place, so no "movements" or apparent "changes" there are real. It's
maya. The wheel of
samsara itself is eternal, too: it will always exist, but its physical activities will exist only as an illusion. Your hope is not to remain on it.
That's how they think it goes, as I understand it.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 9:16 pm
All minds are similar.
They are more unlike than they are similar.
Not according to my argument:
According to empirical fact. You cannot help but know it's so.
Do you really think an Einstein is "equal" in mind with the IQ-90 janitor who cleans the lab at nights? Their only similarity may be that they both have "minds" of some kind -- but what
different minds they have!
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 9:16 pm
Intelligence, artistic, emotional, etc are due to the body not the mind.
Hmmm...you'll have to prove that.
Have you ever seen people who have struck?
"Struck"?
Struck
what?
...a brain is made of many minds
Mine's not. Is yours?
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 9:16 pm
Well, my dog has a mind. When I offer him a treat, I can see him think about how to get the treat. Are you saying he's equal to your mind, too?
Sure they were the same, but your mind and your dog's mind have been exposed to different things and learned different things so their
contents are different now.
So the only difference is that I got to go to university, and Fido went to obedience school instead?
I believe in past lives.
Do you believe in the other essential elements of that belief, like
karma, dharma, samsara, maya, caste, etc.?
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
But I think that I chose to come here.
Who asked you, and to whom did you make your choice?
I don't exactly know why I choose to come here. Perhaps to find the Absolute Truth.
Who asked you if you wanted to come?
Yours is illogical since it cannot answer the problem of evil mine can answer.
I don't see that you have any answer to the problem of evil at all: all you have is fatalism -- suffering is just a thing that happens, and isn't inherently "bad" or "evil" at all, from your worldview. In fact, nothing can be "evil" in your view, if you're consistent with it.
As for me, I can recognize things as "evil" or "good," and I have an understanding of evil, and one that gives me reason to regard it as "bad," and one that has a solution for evil as well. I don't see that you're ahead of me at all, there.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
It is unconditional so you cannot blame anyone.
Right. So now you're saying you haven't suffered.
No, when I said that.
Its' not "suffering," and it's not "bad." You asked for it, you say. So it's your reward, your pay-off, the wages of your choice. I don't think that view would give anybody reason to have any sympathy for you, or regard you as ill-used in some way.
You got what you asked for.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
You've been given what you asked for. And it's not unfair, so now you don't even need any appeal to "Divine Justice" anymore.
I didn't ask for it.
Sure you did. You chose to come here on an "unconditional" basis. You say you have no idea of
why you did, and no memory of
how it happened; but you assure me it was entirely your choice. You've said so several times, now.
So yes, you asked for it. That's the only possible conclusion.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
Because it makes sense as I stated.
You're not able to answer the question? I'll put it again: WHO told you about this?
I reach to this conclusion.
I don't even understand that answer, if that's what it's supposed to be.