To Immanuel Can

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Dontaskme
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Re: To Immanuel Can

Post by Dontaskme »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 5:08 pm
Minds? Plural? :shock:

That's interesting. I've seen views that claim an ultimate cosmic "Mind" to have existed eternally...but I'm unaware of an argument for "minds" that has any currency.

Go ahead. I'm interested in that argument.
It's not even an argument - it's absolute common knowledge that there are many minds...just as there are many grains of sand in the desert. Do you have any understanding as to what the (''whole and the part'' ) metaphor actually means IC ? :roll: Or do you intentionally dumb other minds down just to make your mind look superior, like you are the only one who knows what they are talking about?

Why is the thought that there are many grains of sand as there are many minds a shock to you?

Yes, it's all very clear now...all you care about is how can I make this into an argument. Which makes you nothing more than a pompous fraudulant charlatan.

If your silly I know God because I have committed my life to being in relationship with him is anywhere near the actual truth, you wouldn't be wasting yours and other peoples time by constantly arguing and defending what to you is an absolute truth.


I'm sorry, but if you are going to act like an idiot, then you deserve the title.





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Immanuel Can
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Re: To Immanuel Can

Post by Immanuel Can »

bahman wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 10:16 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 5:08 pm
bahman wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 10:04 pm Minds have existed since the beginning of time. The mind cannot be created or destroyed. I have an argument for that.
Minds? Plural? :shock:

That's interesting. I've seen views that claim an ultimate cosmic "Mind" to have existed eternally...but I'm unaware of an argument for "minds" that has any currency.

Go ahead. I'm interested in that argument.
I have to show many things by order:

1) There is a conscious mind when there is motion (I have two arguments for that and there is an argument from Aquinas that I have never understood (argument from contingency))
No, I don't think you actually need to show that...at least, not right now. It doesn't actually relate to the question. It seems a little odd to me, but it also doesn't seem necessary here.
2) Mind cannot be created or destroyed (I have two arguments for that)
Nor this. It's not under discussion at the moment.
3) There is a beginning for time (I think you agree with this)
Yes, so it's not necessary. We can take it as given.
4) There are at least two minds
That's the part I'm interested in.

I'm guessing you can't be a Buddhist or a Hindu, since there is, in their thinking, but one cosmic "Mind" ultimately (though many fragments of that Mind). I'm pretty sure you're not anything from the Western tradition, where they recognize the existence of both the mind of God and human minds, because those are many.

But the two-minds theory is more interesting, because I know of no argument supporting it. Can you tell me about that?
Proof of (4):...There are motions that are due to you. There are motions that are not due to you, therefore there is at least another conscious mind. Therefore, there are at least two minds.
This is the sticky bit. We haven't established the existence of a "you" at all. Are we taking it for granted, maybe on some kind of Cartesian basis?

The Hindu or the Buddhist would say that this apparent motion is all maya, illusion. Now, I don't think that's right, but how would you refute their challenge?

But my own thought on this subject would be that there are more than two minds. There is the mind of God, and there are the many human minds as well, and they are not the same things (contrary to Eastern beliefs). Would you think the same, or would you assume there are only two minds?
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
Of course, we are different. By equal I mean we have the same value in the eyes of Divine Justice.
"Divine Justice"? :shock:

I didn't think you believe in God, so you can't mean God. What is this "Divine Justice" of which you speak?

And I must also ask, because I'm genuinely curious to know, what told you, or how did you find out, that this DJ regards everybody as "equal"?

I'm not seeing how that can be true, because "justice," assuming there's such a thing, means that everybody gets what they deserve...which is always different things, and thus is not at all equal.

Help me out here, if you can.

Oh, and one more question, if I may...if there is DJ, then suffering is explained. For it would mean that matters that remain unsettled here would be remedied later, by DJ. So I don't understand how somebody who believes there's ultimate justice can also complain about apparent unfairnesses in the present -- it would seem he's answered his own question, saying that there's DJ eventually.
Do you think that anybody has the capacity to become Divine?

I don't know what you mean there by "Divine." You capitalize it, so am I to understand your question to be "Do you think that anybody has the capacity to become God?" Of course, the answer to that would be "No," but I can't see why you would even ask that; so I must be misunderstanding what you mean by "Divine."
We are different because of the level of wisdom in us. We become Divine when we realize this.
That seems really backward to me. It seems to say, "We become 'Divine' (whatever you mean by that) when we realize we have different levels of wisdom (which would mean, when we realize we are limited and partial in knowledge...which would mean we are not God-like at all, but instead "different" and limited beings). How do we get to be "Divine" by realizing we're not up to "Divine" standards of perfect wisdom?

That really doesn't strike me as making obvious sense. You'd have to explain that one to me.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
We are equal.
I'm still not seeing how that's even possible to think. I know it's a kind of pop meme that "everybody's equal", but when we get to looking at the particulars of what it would entail, I can see no way of making sense of that claim...at least, so far.

But you may help me.
We are simply minds embedded in different bodies. What we choose to do, good or evil, right or wrong, depends on our bodies and life conditions. There is no such a thing as a good mind or an evil mind. They are similar.
Now you've lost me completely.

Let me try to understand: you say we are "minds" (plural, not "Mind," singular and capitalized), and in "different" bodies. You say we "choose." And you say there is "good and evil" from which we "choose," but that our "choice" "depends on our bodies and life conditions"? That seems to suggest either social or biological determinism, which means there's no "choice," actually. And then you say that this "good and evil" which we "choose" between doesn't mean anything when we apply it to these "minds"? :shock:

And for some reason, this follows because "[minds] are similar"? (but not "the same") :shock:

I'm clearly not understanding what you're trying to convey here. Can you clear up what you mean?
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bahman
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Re: To Immanuel Can

Post by bahman »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 1:58 pm
bahman wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 10:16 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 5:08 pm
Minds? Plural? :shock:

That's interesting. I've seen views that claim an ultimate cosmic "Mind" to have existed eternally...but I'm unaware of an argument for "minds" that has any currency.

Go ahead. I'm interested in that argument.
I have to show many things by order:

1) There is a conscious mind when there is motion (I have two arguments for that and there is an argument from Aquinas that I have never understood (argument from contingency))
No, I don't think you actually need to show that...at least, not right now. It doesn't actually relate to the question. It seems a little odd to me, but it also doesn't seem necessary here.
2) Mind cannot be created or destroyed (I have two arguments for that)
Nor this. It's not under discussion at the moment.
3) There is a beginning for time (I think you agree with this)
Yes, so it's not necessary. We can take it as given.
4) There are at least two minds
That's the part I'm interested in.

I'm guessing you can't be a Buddhist or a Hindu, since there is, in their thinking, but one cosmic "Mind" ultimately (though many fragments of that Mind). I'm pretty sure you're not anything from the Western tradition, where they recognize the existence of both the mind of God and human minds, because those are many.

But the two-minds theory is more interesting, because I know of no argument supporting it. Can you tell me about that?
Proof of (4):...There are motions that are due to you. There are motions that are not due to you, therefore there is at least another conscious mind. Therefore, there are at least two minds.
This is the sticky bit. We haven't established the existence of a "you" at all.
The existence of your conscious mind can be established if we accept that there is motion due to me.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 5:08 pm Are we taking it for granted, maybe on some kind of Cartesian basis?
No, I am an idealist. There are minds and qualia where qualia are due to mind.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 5:08 pm The Hindu or the Buddhist would say that this apparent motion is all maya, illusion. Now, I don't think that's right, but how would you refute their challenge?
I asked them why this illusion is temporally coherent. This leads to another proof of mind which indicates that there must be a mind that coherently connects the past to the future. This is true since there is a fantastic correlation between what appears as options, what we want, and what we do.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 5:08 pm But my own thought on this subject would be that there are more than two minds. There is the mind of God, and there are the many human minds as well, and they are not the same things (contrary to Eastern beliefs). Would you think the same, or would you assume there are only two minds?
I believe that there are more than one mind that reside in anybody but I don't have any proof for it yet.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm "Divine Justice"? :shock:

I didn't think you believe in God, so you can't mean God. What is this "Divine Justice" of which you speak?
I am a spiritual person with almost more than ten years of spiritual experience. I know many spiritual beings including Jesus that are Divine.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm And I must also ask, because I'm genuinely curious to know, what told you, or how did you find out, that this DJ regards everybody as "equal"?

I'm not seeing how that can be true, because "justice," assuming there's such a thing, means that everybody gets what they deserve...which is always different things, and thus is not at all equal.

Help me out here, if you can.
To apply Divine Justice to somebody, one needs to thoroughly understand what a person really is. A person is a mind and a body/nature plus his/her experiences. Could we agree on this?
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm Oh, and one more question, if I may...if there is DJ, then suffering is explained. For it would mean that matters that remain unsettled here would be remedied later, by DJ. So I don't understand how somebody who believes there's ultimate justice can also complain about apparent unfairnesses in the present -- it would seem he's answered his own question, saying that there's DJ eventually.
I have another idea about life on Earth. Interested?
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
I don't know what you mean there by "Divine." You capitalize it, so am I to understand your question to be "Do you think that anybody has the capacity to become God?" Of course, the answer to that would be "No," but I can't see why you would even ask that; so I must be misunderstanding what you mean by "Divine."

By Divine, I mean whoever realizes that we are equal and notice the consequences.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
That seems really backward to me. It seems to say, "We become 'Divine' (whatever you mean by that) when we realize we have different levels of wisdom (which would mean, when we realize we are limited and partial in knowledge...which would mean we are not God-like at all, but instead "different" and limited beings). How do we get to be "Divine" by realizing we're not up to "Divine" standards of perfect wisdom?

That really doesn't strike me as making obvious sense. You'd have to explain that one to me.
It is simple. Does any Divine being do something wrong? No. Why? Because He is wise. How about a normal person? Of course occasionally yes. Why? Because he/she is not wise enough. Are we allowed to punish someone who is not wise enough?
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
Now you've lost me completely.

Let me try to understand: you say we are "minds" (plural, not "Mind," singular and capitalized), and in "different" bodies. You say we "choose." And you say there is "good and evil" from which we "choose," but that our "choice" "depends on our bodies and life conditions"? That seems to suggest either social or biological determinism, which means there's no "choice," actually. And then you say that this "good and evil" which we "choose" between doesn't mean anything when we apply it to these "minds"? :shock:

And for some reason, this follows because "[minds] are similar"? (but not "the same") :shock:

I'm clearly not understanding what you're trying to convey here. Can you clear up what you mean?
I don't mean that there is no choice. Think of a criminal and yourself who are not criminals. Now assume that we can exchange your mind with his/her mind. You still have a choice but you most likely do what he/she does. Why? Because although that is mind who make the choice the mind is unders influence of body and life experience.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: To Immanuel Can

Post by Immanuel Can »

bahman wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 6:07 pm The existence of your conscious mind can be established if we accept that there is motion due to me.
But a Hindu or other kind of Transcendental Idealist is going to point out that we don't know that "there is motion," because all is maya (illusion), so nothing is "moving." And secondly, we don't know that the "motion" is "due to me." In fact, he or she is going to say that there isn't even a real "me."

That's why, in Buddhism, transcendence is the cessation of existence. The individual "soul" realizes it's not an individual "soul" at all, but merely continuous with the one great eternal "mind."

No "me," and no "motion," therefore.

So they're going to want a better answer.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 5:08 pm The Hindu or the Buddhist would say that this apparent motion is all maya, illusion. Now, I don't think that's right, but how would you refute their challenge?
I asked them why this illusion is temporally coherent.

They're going to say that "coherence" is, too, just an illusion of maya.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm "Divine Justice"? :shock:

I didn't think you believe in God, so you can't mean God. What is this "Divine Justice" of which you speak?
I am a spiritual person with almost more than ten years of spiritual experience. I know many spiritual beings including Jesus that are Divine.
Oh? You're an occultist, then?

Are you claiming you have personal experience with many diverse "spiritual beings"?
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm And I must also ask, because I'm genuinely curious to know, what told you, or how did you find out, that this DJ regards everybody as "equal"?

I'm not seeing how that can be true, because "justice," assuming there's such a thing, means that everybody gets what they deserve...which is always different things, and thus is not at all equal.

Help me out here, if you can.
To apply Divine Justice to somebody, one needs to thoroughly understand what a person really is. A person is a mind and a body/nature plus his/her experiences. Could we agree on this?
No, I don't think we need to agree to "understand what a person is." I think it's much more simple than that.

The problem is "equality." What is the basis of your supposition that we are entitled to it?

And who is administering this "Divine Justice"? Is it one of the occult spirits you know, or is it God, or is it you...?
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm Oh, and one more question, if I may...if there is DJ, then suffering is explained. For it would mean that matters that remain unsettled here would be remedied later, by DJ. So I don't understand how somebody who believes there's ultimate justice can also complain about apparent unfairnesses in the present -- it would seem he's answered his own question, saying that there's DJ eventually.
I have another idea about life on Earth. Interested?
If you can answer my question first, I'd be interested.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm I don't know what you mean there by "Divine." You capitalize it, so am I to understand your question to be "Do you think that anybody has the capacity to become God?" Of course, the answer to that would be "No," but I can't see why you would even ask that; so I must be misunderstanding what you mean by "Divine."

By Divine, I mean whoever realizes that we are equal and notice the consequences.
Again, how do you know we are equal?
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm That seems really backward to me. It seems to say, "We become 'Divine' (whatever you mean by that) when we realize we have different levels of wisdom (which would mean, when we realize we are limited and partial in knowledge...which would mean we are not God-like at all, but instead "different" and limited beings). How do we get to be "Divine" by realizing we're not up to "Divine" standards of perfect wisdom?

That really doesn't strike me as making obvious sense. You'd have to explain that one to me.
It is simple. Does any Divine being do something wrong? [/quote]
I don't even know, yet, what you mean by "Divine." You keep capitalizing it...why? What are you trying to indicate with the capital "D"?

Depending on your definition of "Divine," maybe the answer is "Yes," not "No."
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm Now you've lost me completely.

Let me try to understand: you say we are "minds" (plural, not "Mind," singular and capitalized), and in "different" bodies. You say we "choose." And you say there is "good and evil" from which we "choose," but that our "choice" "depends on our bodies and life conditions"? That seems to suggest either social or biological determinism, which means there's no "choice," actually. And then you say that this "good and evil" which we "choose" between doesn't mean anything when we apply it to these "minds"? :shock:

And for some reason, this follows because "[minds] are similar"? (but not "the same") :shock:

I'm clearly not understanding what you're trying to convey here. Can you clear up what you mean?
I don't mean that there is no choice.

Think of a criminal and yourself who are not criminals. Now assume that we can exchange your mind with his/her mind. You still have a choice but you most likely do what he/she does. Why? Because although that is mind who make the choice the mind is unders influence of body and life experience.
So you're saying we do choose, and the body and life experiences are not determinative. They can have some influence, but don't force you to do things. Well, that's what everybody who believes in volition or free will believes. So you're a believer in free will, I guess.

But you say there's no good or evil, so there's nothing to choose between. So then, we don't choose. Rather, whatever we end up doing is as "good" or "bad" as anything can be -- or more correctly, is neither -- and whatever it is, is really self-justified; because there's no good or evil to any choice we make. :shock:

Not much of a choice, I'm thinking. And it would mean that a worrying lot of things that most people regard as evil would not be evil anymore. :shock:

One of those would surely be "suffering," about which you were complaining earlier. If there's no good or evil, then suffering itself isn't an evil. :shock:

And then, what's the basis of "Divine Justice," since there's no good or evil for DJ to "judge" between? :shock:

All very confusing.
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bahman
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Re: To Immanuel Can

Post by bahman »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 6:44 pm
bahman wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 6:07 pm The existence of your conscious mind can be established if we accept that there is motion due to me.
But a Hindu or other kind of Transcendental Idealist is going to point out that we don't know that "there is motion," because all is maya (illusion), so nothing is "moving." And secondly, we don't know that the "motion" is "due to me." In fact, he or she is going to say that there isn't even a real "me."

That's why, in Buddhism, transcendence is the cessation of existence. The individual "soul" realizes it's not an individual "soul" at all, but merely continuous with the one great eternal "mind."

No "me," and no "motion," therefore.

So they're going to want a better answer.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 5:08 pm The Hindu or the Buddhist would say that this apparent motion is all maya, illusion. Now, I don't think that's right, but how would you refute their challenge?
I asked them why this illusion is temporally coherent.

They're going to say that "coherence" is, too, just an illusion of maya.
That is absurd! Do they eat? If yes, why?
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm "Divine Justice"? :shock:

I didn't think you believe in God, so you can't mean God. What is this "Divine Justice" of which you speak?
I am a spiritual person with almost more than ten years of spiritual experience. I know many spiritual beings including Jesus that are Divine.
Oh? You're an occultist, then?

Are you claiming you have personal experience with many diverse "spiritual beings"?
Yes, I cannot count them.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm And I must also ask, because I'm genuinely curious to know, what told you, or how did you find out, that this DJ regards everybody as "equal"?

I'm not seeing how that can be true, because "justice," assuming there's such a thing, means that everybody gets what they deserve...which is always different things, and thus is not at all equal.

Help me out here, if you can.
To apply Divine Justice to somebody, one needs to thoroughly understand what a person really is. A person is a mind and a body/nature plus his/her experiences. Could we agree on this?
No, I don't think we need to agree to "understand what a person is." I think it's much more simple than that.

The problem is "equality." What is the basis of your supposition that we are entitled to it?

And who is administering this "Divine Justice"? Is it one of the occult spirits you know, or is it God, or is it you...?
Anybody who understands that we have the same value.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm Oh, and one more question, if I may...if there is DJ, then suffering is explained. For it would mean that matters that remain unsettled here would be remedied later, by DJ. So I don't understand how somebody who believes there's ultimate justice can also complain about apparent unfairnesses in the present -- it would seem he's answered his own question, saying that there's DJ eventually.
I have another idea about life on Earth. Interested?
If you can answer my question first, I'd be interested.
But to have a coherent view of why we are suffering we have to know why we are here.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm I don't know what you mean there by "Divine." You capitalize it, so am I to understand your question to be "Do you think that anybody has the capacity to become God?" Of course, the answer to that would be "No," but I can't see why you would even ask that; so I must be misunderstanding what you mean by "Divine."

By Divine, I mean whoever realizes that we are equal and notice the consequences.
Again, how do you know we are equal?

What is a person to you?
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm That seems really backward to me. It seems to say, "We become 'Divine' (whatever you mean by that) when we realize we have different levels of wisdom (which would mean, when we realize we are limited and partial in knowledge...which would mean we are not God-like at all, but instead "different" and limited beings). How do we get to be "Divine" by realizing we're not up to "Divine" standards of perfect wisdom?

That really doesn't strike me as making obvious sense. You'd have to explain that one to me.
It is simple. Does any Divine being do something wrong?
I don't even know, yet, what you mean by "Divine." You keep capitalizing it...why? What are you trying to indicate with the capital "D"?
The person that understands that we have the same value, establishes a moral system based on this, and chooses and act accordingly.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm Now you've lost me completely.

Let me try to understand: you say we are "minds" (plural, not "Mind," singular and capitalized), and in "different" bodies. You say we "choose." And you say there is "good and evil" from which we "choose," but that our "choice" "depends on our bodies and life conditions"? That seems to suggest either social or biological determinism, which means there's no "choice," actually. And then you say that this "good and evil" which we "choose" between doesn't mean anything when we apply it to these "minds"? :shock:

And for some reason, this follows because "[minds] are similar"? (but not "the same") :shock:

I'm clearly not understanding what you're trying to convey here. Can you clear up what you mean?
I don't mean that there is no choice.

Think of a criminal and yourself who are not criminals. Now assume that we can exchange your mind with his/her mind. You still have a choice but you most likely do what he/she does. Why? Because although that is mind who make the choice the mind is unders influence of body and life experience.
So you're saying we do choose, and the body and life experiences are not determinative. They can have some influence, but don't force you to do things. Well, that's what everybody who believes in volition or free will believes. So you're a believer in free will, I guess.

But you say there's no good or evil, so there's nothing to choose between. So then, we don't choose. Rather, whatever we end up doing is as "good" or "bad" as anything can be -- or more correctly, is neither -- and whatever it is, is really self-justified; because there's no good or evil to any choice we make. :shock:
I didn't say that there is no good or evil. I try to grab your imagination that you most likely would do what a criminal do if we exchange your mind with his/her mind.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm Not much of a choice, I'm thinking. And it would mean that a worrying lot of things that most people regard as evil would not be evil anymore. :shock:

One of those would surely be "suffering," about which you were complaining earlier. If there's no good or evil, then suffering itself isn't an evil. :shock:

And then, what's the basis of "Divine Justice," since there's no good or evil for DJ to "judge" between? :shock:

All very confusing.
My complaint about the existence of evil applies to your system of belief where people have no choice to come into this world. You certainly cannot complain if coming to this world is your choice. Problem solved.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: To Immanuel Can

Post by Immanuel Can »

bahman wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 7:58 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 6:44 pm They're going to say that "coherence" is, too, just an illusion of maya.
That is absurd! Do they eat? If yes, why?
They're going to say there's no "eat," and no "they." All of that is maya.

For them, "enlightement" means, precisely, "realizing that what seems real is not at all real." It' s "delusion," or "attachment," or "samsara."

Why do you think they do things like walking on hot coals, or sleeping on broken glass, or sitting in lotus position for hours and hours, or putting fishhooks in their flesh and swinging around by them? Because they're trying to illustrate to anybody who doubts, "This world that you think is so real is actually a fiction, and can be overcome by the power of the mind, of enlightenment. See? You will think that I should be in pain, but I'm not."

That's their whole message: nothing you think you see is real.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
I am a spiritual person with almost more than ten years of spiritual experience. I know many spiritual beings including Jesus that are Divine.
Oh? You're an occultist, then?

Are you claiming you have personal experience with many diverse "spiritual beings"?
Yes, I cannot count them.
I see.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
To apply Divine Justice to somebody, one needs to thoroughly understand what a person really is. A person is a mind and a body/nature plus his/her experiences. Could we agree on this?
No, I don't think we need to agree to "understand what a person is." I think it's much more simple than that.

The problem is "equality." What is the basis of your supposition that we are entitled to it?

And who is administering this "Divine Justice"? Is it one of the occult spirits you know, or is it God, or is it you...?
Anybody who understands that we have the same value.
Who says we do?
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm

By Divine, I mean whoever realizes that we are equal and notice the consequences.
Again, how do you know we are equal?

What is a person to you?
"To me"? Well, that doesn't matter. What matters is only what a person IS, not what I may "think" they are.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
It is simple. Does any Divine being do something wrong?
I don't even know, yet, what you mean by "Divine." You keep capitalizing it...why? What are you trying to indicate with the capital "D"?
The person that understands that we have the same value, establishes a moral system based on this, and chooses and act accordingly.
But you've done nothing that shows we DO have the same value. Why would anybody think that's the moral touchstone, when plausibly, it isn't even true...or at least, you haven't shown it to be.
I didn't say that there is no good or evil.
Did you not say, earlier on, that they do not exist "in the mind"? It seems to me you did, a few messages back...
I try to grab your imagination that you most likely would do what a criminal do if we exchange your mind with his/her mind.
I can't answer. It's totally speculative.

But I think I'd still be me. I don't know what that would look like, but nobody can say. It's purely imaginary. So there are no conclusions possible from a question like that.
My complaint about the existence of evil applies to your system of belief where people have no choice to come into this world.
Wait...so you think that you chose to come here?

When and how did that happen? And if it did, why can't you and I remember it did?
You certainly cannot complain if coming to this world is your choice. Problem solved.
Okay: so you were just kidding about there being any problem of suffering? There isn't one? You're not suffering? And you chose what you got?
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bahman
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Re: To Immanuel Can

Post by bahman »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 8:28 pm
bahman wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 7:58 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 6:44 pm They're going to say that "coherence" is, too, just an illusion of maya.
That is absurd! Do they eat? If yes, why?
They're going to say there's no "eat," and no "they." All of that is maya.

For them, "enlightenment" means, precisely, "realizing that what seems real is not at all real." It' s "delusion," or "attachment," or "samsara."

Why do you think they do things like walking on hot coals, or sleeping on broken glass, or sitting in lotus position for hours and hours, or putting fishhooks in their flesh and swinging around by them? Because they're trying to illustrate to anybody who doubts, "This world that you think is so real is actually a fiction, and can be overcome by the power of the mind, of enlightenment. See? You will think that I should be in pain, but I'm not."

That's their whole message: nothing you think you see is real.
But they eat. All their enlightenment vanishes if they don't eat at all.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
No, I don't think we need to agree to "understand what a person is." I think it's much more simple than that.

The problem is "equality." What is the basis of your supposition that we are entitled to it?

And who is administering this "Divine Justice"? Is it one of the occult spirits you know, or is it God, or is it you...?
Anybody who understands that we have the same value.
Who says we do?
Anybody who understands this.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
Again, how do you know we are equal?

What is a person to you?
"To me"? Well, that doesn't matter. What matters is only what a person IS, not what I may "think" they are.

It matters. To you as a Christian person, a person is a body and soul.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
I don't even know, yet, what you mean by "Divine." You keep capitalizing it...why? What are you trying to indicate with the capital "D"?
The person that understands that we have the same value, establishes a moral system based on this, and chooses and act accordingly.
But you've done nothing that shows we DO have the same value. Why would anybody think that's the moral touchstone, when plausibly, it isn't even true...or at least, you haven't shown it to be.
I have shown. We are mind and body. The body we get is a heritage so you cannot give value to people based on their body. Our minds are also similar so we have the same value.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
I didn't say that there is no good or evil.
Did you not say, earlier on, that they do not exist "in the mind"? It seems to me you did, a few messages back...
I try to grab your imagination that you most likely would do what a criminal do if we exchange your mind with his/her mind.
I can't answer. It's totally speculative.

But I think I'd still be me. I don't know what that would look like, but nobody can say. It's purely imaginary. So there are no conclusions possible from a question like that.
Is there any difference between minds?
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
My complaint about the existence of evil applies to your system of belief where people have no choice to come into this world.
Wait...so you think that you chose to come here?
Sure.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm When and how did that happen? And if it did, why can't you and I remember it did?
I have never done meditation but I know that is the way to remember your past lives.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
You certainly cannot complain if coming to this world is your choice. Problem solved.
Okay: so you were just kidding about there being any problem of suffering? There isn't one? You're not suffering? And you chose what you got?
No, I have really suffered a lot. I chose to come to this world as you did. We accepted it unconditionally. So it is not the fault of anybody.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: To Immanuel Can

Post by Immanuel Can »

bahman wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 8:54 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 8:28 pm
bahman wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 7:58 pm
That is absurd! Do they eat? If yes, why?
They're going to say there's no "eat," and no "they." All of that is maya.

For them, "enlightenment" means, precisely, "realizing that what seems real is not at all real." It' s "delusion," or "attachment," or "samsara."

Why do you think they do things like walking on hot coals, or sleeping on broken glass, or sitting in lotus position for hours and hours, or putting fishhooks in their flesh and swinging around by them? Because they're trying to illustrate to anybody who doubts, "This world that you think is so real is actually a fiction, and can be overcome by the power of the mind, of enlightenment. See? You will think that I should be in pain, but I'm not."

That's their whole message: nothing you think you see is real.
But they eat. All their enlightenment vanishes if they don't eat at all.
All is maya. Your impression that they eat, or that humans need to eat, is deceptive, they would say. The truth, they would say, is that we are "mind," not body.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
Anybody who understands that we have the same value.
Who says we do?
Anybody who understands this.
That's not an answer at all. You have to prove that believing people have the same value is a form of understanding, not a mistake.

HOW do you know we "have the same value"? How did you conclude we do?
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm

What is a person to you?
"To me"? Well, that doesn't matter. What matters is only what a person IS, not what I may "think" they are.

It matters.
No. Thinking does not make things so.
Our minds are also similar so we have the same value.
"Similar" is not "same." A $1 bill is "similar" to a $100 bill. They are not the same in value.

You say our minds are "simliar." Well, they're awfully dissimilar too. Some people are more or less inteliigent, artistic, perceptive, emotional, sympathetic, logical, etc. Some have bigger brains and some have smaller ones. Some are brain-injured, and some are healthy. Some are developed and some are underdeveloped.

What makes all "minds" equal? Are you supposing you are "equal" with somebody whose IQ is below 90?

In what particular sense, then, are minds "equal"?
Is there any difference between minds?
Many, obviously.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
My complaint about the existence of evil applies to your system of belief where people have no choice to come into this world.
Wait...so you think that you chose to come here?
Sure.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm When and how did that happen? And if it did, why can't you and I remember it did?
I have never done meditation but I know that is the way to remember your past lives.
Oh. You're a reincarnationist, too?

But you say you've "never done meditation." So how do you know?
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
You certainly cannot complain if coming to this world is your choice. Problem solved.
Okay: so you were just kidding about there being any problem of suffering? There isn't one? You're not suffering? And you chose what you got?
No, I have really suffered a lot.
Then the fact of your suffering refutes your belief. You cannot call "suffering" that which you chose. You can just as easily call it "reward"; after all, you asked for it. You said you put no conditions on it.

[/quote]I chose to come to this world as you did. We accepted it unconditionally. So it is not the fault of anybody.[/quote]
You say you don't remember this bargain. You have "never done meditation" to find out. I believe you don't remember it, because I don't remember it either.

So who told you about this, and why do you believe them, since you don't have any experience with it yourself?
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bahman
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Re: To Immanuel Can

Post by bahman »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:16 pm
bahman wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 8:54 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 8:28 pm
They're going to say there's no "eat," and no "they." All of that is maya.

For them, "enlightenment" means, precisely, "realizing that what seems real is not at all real." It' s "delusion," or "attachment," or "samsara."

Why do you think they do things like walking on hot coals, or sleeping on broken glass, or sitting in lotus position for hours and hours, or putting fishhooks in their flesh and swinging around by them? Because they're trying to illustrate to anybody who doubts, "This world that you think is so real is actually a fiction, and can be overcome by the power of the mind, of enlightenment. See? You will think that I should be in pain, but I'm not."

That's their whole message: nothing you think you see is real.
But they eat. All their enlightenment vanishes if they don't eat at all.
All is maya. Your impression that they eat, or that humans need to eat, is deceptive, they would say.
Deceptive! That is absurd. It is a matter of fact.
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:16 pm The truth, they would say, is that we are "mind," not body.
How do they know that there is a mind?
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
Who says we do?
Anybody who understands this.
That's not an answer at all. You have to prove that believing people have the same value is a form of understanding, not a mistake.

HOW do you know we "have the same value"? How did you conclude we do?
Because we are mind and body. All minds are similar. Our bodies are different but that is a heritage given by fate so we cannot give different values to different people based on their bodies.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
Our minds are also similar so we have the same value.
"Similar" is not "same." A $1 bill is "similar" to a $100 bill. They are not the same in value.

You say our minds are "simliar." Well, they're awfully dissimilar too. Some people are more or less inteliigent, artistic, perceptive, emotional, sympathetic, logical, etc. Some have bigger brains and some have smaller ones. Some are brain-injured, and some are healthy. Some are developed and some are underdeveloped.
Intelligence, artistic, emotional, etc are due to the body not the mind.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm What makes all "minds" equal? Are you supposing you are "equal" with somebody whose IQ is below 90?

In what particular sense, then, are minds "equal"?
Mind as it is defined minimally is an irreducible substance with the ability to experience, decide and cause. So given the definition, which is a matter of necessity all minds are similar.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm When and how did that happen? And if it did, why can't you and I remember it did?
I have never done meditation but I know that is the way to remember your past lives.
Oh. You're a reincarnationist, too?
I don't believe in karma. But I think that I chose to come here.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm But you say you've "never done meditation." So how do you know?
Because it makes sense. You choose unconditionally and accept the consequences so there is no blame on Divine beings.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
Okay: so you were just kidding about there being any problem of suffering? There isn't one? You're not suffering? And you chose what you got?
No, I have really suffered a lot.
Then the fact of your suffering refutes your belief. You cannot call "suffering" that which you chose. You can just as easily call it "reward"; after all, you asked for it. You said you put no conditions on it.
It is unconditional so you cannot blame anyone.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
I chose to come to this world as you did. We accepted it unconditionally. So it is not the fault of anybody.
You say you don't remember this bargain. You have "never done meditation" to find out. I believe you don't remember it, because I don't remember it either.

So who told you about this, and why do you believe them, since you don't have any experience with it yourself?
Because it makes sense as I stated.
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Re: To Immanuel Can

Post by Immanuel Can »

bahman wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:45 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:16 pm
bahman wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 8:54 pm
But they eat. All their enlightenment vanishes if they don't eat at all.
All is maya. Your impression that they eat, or that humans need to eat, is deceptive, they would say.
Deceptive! That is absurd. It is a matter of fact.
Okay, you can say they're being "deceptive and absurd." But you don't have an answer for them, do you? You don't have proof that "movement" or "eating" are real things...it's just that, to you, they look that way. But the Hindu is going to say, "Of course they look that way to you...you are experiencing maya."
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:16 pm The truth, they would say, is that we are "mind," not body.
How do they know that there is a mind?
You'll have to ask them. But I suspect they might say something like, "Well, who's asking?"

If there's no "mind," then there's no you asking them anything. And nothing is being asked.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
Anybody who understands this.
That's not an answer at all. You have to prove that believing people have the same value is a form of understanding, not a mistake.

HOW do you know we "have the same value"? How did you conclude we do?
All minds are similar.
They are more unlike than they are similar.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
Our minds are also similar so we have the same value.
"Similar" is not "same." A $1 bill is "similar" to a $100 bill. They are not the same in value.

You say our minds are "simliar." Well, they're awfully dissimilar too. Some people are more or less inteliigent, artistic, perceptive, emotional, sympathetic, logical, etc. Some have bigger brains and some have smaller ones. Some are brain-injured, and some are healthy. Some are developed and some are underdeveloped.
Intelligence, artistic, emotional, etc are due to the body not the mind.
Hmmm...you'll have to prove that.

You believe in "intelligent" bodies, but not "intelligent" minds? Most people would say the opposite is obvious: it's the mind that's "intelligent, artistic, emotional, etc."
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm What makes all "minds" equal? Are you supposing you are "equal" with somebody whose IQ is below 90?

In what particular sense, then, are minds "equal"?
Mind as it is defined minimally is an irreducible substance with the ability to experience, decide and cause. So given the definition, which is a matter of necessity all minds are similar.
Oh. Then you mean nothing much at all.

All you mean is that people are all the same solely in the fact that they have a mind. You're not saying their minds are, themselves, the same.

Well, my dog has a mind. When I offer him a treat, I can see him think about how to get the treat. Are you saying he's equal to your mind, too?
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm

I have never done meditation but I know that is the way to remember your past lives.
Oh. You're a reincarnationist, too?
I don't believe in karma.
Reincarnation requires a belief in karma, of course...and dharma, and samsara...it's a whole package, in which each element is essential to the whole explanation.

So you're not a reincarnationist? You don't believe in past lives? I wonder why you said you did, then.
But I think that I chose to come here.
Who asked you, and to whom did you make your choice?
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm But you say you've "never done meditation." So how do you know?
Because it makes sense.
Not unless you have some evidence.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
No, I have really suffered a lot.
Then the fact of your suffering refutes your belief. You cannot call "suffering" that which you chose. You can just as easily call it "reward"; after all, you asked for it. You said you put no conditions on it.
It is unconditional so you cannot blame anyone.
Right. So now you're saying you haven't suffered. You've been given what you asked for. And it's not unfair, so now you don't even need any appeal to "Divine Justice" anymore.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
I chose to come to this world as you did. We accepted it unconditionally. So it is not the fault of anybody.
You say you don't remember this bargain. You have "never done meditation" to find out. I believe you don't remember it, because I don't remember it either.

So who told you about this, and why do you believe them, since you don't have any experience with it yourself?
Because it makes sense as I stated.
You're not able to answer the question? I'll put it again: WHO told you about this?
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Re: To Immanuel Can

Post by bahman »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 10:00 pm
bahman wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:45 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:16 pm
All is maya. Your impression that they eat, or that humans need to eat, is deceptive, they would say.
Deceptive! That is absurd. It is a matter of fact.
Okay, you can say they're being "deceptive and absurd." But you don't have an answer for them, do you? You don't have proof that "movement" or "eating" are real things...it's just that, to you, they look that way. But the Hindu is going to say, "Of course they look that way to you...you are experiencing maya."
It is a fact. Don't eat and you die. How do they prove that Maya is real?
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:16 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:16 pm The truth, they would say, is that we are "mind," not body.
How do they know that there is a mind?
You'll have to ask them. But I suspect they might say something like, "Well, who's asking?"

If there's no "mind," then there's no you asking them anything. And nothing is being asked.
Is there a change when they find an answer to a question too?
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:16 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
That's not an answer at all. You have to prove that believing people have the same value is a form of understanding, not a mistake.

HOW do you know we "have the same value"? How did you conclude we do?
All minds are similar.
They are more unlike than they are similar.
Not according to my argument: A mind is an irreducible substance with the ability to experience, think, decide and cause.
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:16 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
"Similar" is not "same." A $1 bill is "similar" to a $100 bill. They are not the same in value.

You say our minds are "simliar." Well, they're awfully dissimilar too. Some people are more or less inteliigent, artistic, perceptive, emotional, sympathetic, logical, etc. Some have bigger brains and some have smaller ones. Some are brain-injured, and some are healthy. Some are developed and some are underdeveloped.
Intelligence, artistic, emotional, etc are due to the body not the mind.
Hmmm...you'll have to prove that.
Have you ever seen people who have struck?
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:16 pm You believe in "intelligent" bodies, but not "intelligent" minds? Most people would say the opposite is obvious: it's the mind that's "intelligent, artistic, emotional, etc."
This is a complicated thing. First of all, a brain is made of many minds each has its own content and they are connected in a complicated manner. Thinking is the ability of mind but intelligence for example is the result of how well-developed minds are by gathering information from childhood and how they are connected.
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:16 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm What makes all "minds" equal? Are you supposing you are "equal" with somebody whose IQ is below 90?

In what particular sense, then, are minds "equal"?
Mind as it is defined minimally is an irreducible substance with the ability to experience, decide and cause. So given the definition, which is a matter of necessity all minds are similar.
Oh. Then you mean nothing much at all.

All you mean is that people are all the same solely in the fact that they have a mind. You're not saying their minds are, themselves, the same.

Well, my dog has a mind. When I offer him a treat, I can see him think about how to get the treat. Are you saying he's equal to your mind, too?
Sure they were the same, but your mind and your dog's mind have been exposed to different things and learned different things so their contents are different now.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
Oh. You're a reincarnationist, too?
I don't believe in karma.
Reincarnation requires a belief in karma, of course...and dharma, and samsara...it's a whole package, in which each element is essential to the whole explanation.

So you're not a reincarnationist? You don't believe in past lives? I wonder why you said you did, then.
I believe in past lives.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
But I think that I chose to come here.
Who asked you, and to whom did you make your choice?
I don't exactly know why I choose to come here. Perhaps to find the Absolute Truth.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm But you say you've "never done meditation." So how do you know?
Because it makes sense.
Not unless you have some evidence.
Let's see what we have in our hands: Your view of Divine Beings and my view of Divine Beings. Yours is illogical since it cannot answer the problem of evil mine can answer.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
Then the fact of your suffering refutes your belief. You cannot call "suffering" that which you chose. You can just as easily call it "reward"; after all, you asked for it. You said you put no conditions on it.
It is unconditional so you cannot blame anyone.
Right. So now you're saying you haven't suffered.
No, when I said that.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm You've been given what you asked for. And it's not unfair, so now you don't even need any appeal to "Divine Justice" anymore.
I didn't ask for it. Life here is just unconditional. And you cannot blame Divine Beings anymore.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
You say you don't remember this bargain. You have "never done meditation" to find out. I believe you don't remember it, because I don't remember it either.

So who told you about this, and why do you believe them, since you don't have any experience with it yourself?
Because it makes sense as I stated.
You're not able to answer the question? I'll put it again: WHO told you about this?
I reach to this conclusion.
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Re: To Immanuel Can

Post by Immanuel Can »

bahman wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 3:33 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 10:00 pm
bahman wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:45 pm
Deceptive! That is absurd. It is a matter of fact.
Okay, you can say they're being "deceptive and absurd." But you don't have an answer for them, do you? You don't have proof that "movement" or "eating" are real things...it's just that, to you, they look that way. But the Hindu is going to say, "Of course they look that way to you...you are experiencing maya."
It is a fact. Don't eat and you die. How do they prove that Maya is real?
Well, I agree with you that their case is implausible. But they do, themselves, believe it, I think. Their religious explanation of suffering requires several parts, working in relationship: suffering, maya, reincarnation, caste, karma, dharma (duty), Cosmic Spirit, desire, and the unreality of all matter, among other things. And no part of that can be pulled out of the others without the whole thing falling apart, because each explains some key question caused by the others.

For example, why is reincarnation necessary to believe in? Because suffering (samsara) is so evident, and justice is apparently absent in one life. How is justice achieved in many lives? By karma, transfered moral praise or blame from one incarnation to the next, so that justice is achieved over the entire cycle of lives, even when it's not evident in one life. What does this mean for the next life? Caste: you will be reincarnated at the level of karma one generated in the last life, oblivious to one's arrival. How do I improve that? Do your duty (dharma) at your caste level, and you will improve. How do I escape samsara? Repress desire until you realize all is maya, abandon desire, and become enlightened. Then you can escape to Hindu paradise, soul-extinction or Nirvana through being an enlightened one...you will be off the wheel of reincarnations, of samsara...

It's all tied together in Eastern thought. All of it is required for any of it to work.
Is there a change when they find an answer to a question too?
It depends on what you mean by "change." Does the mind change? Yes. Does the physical reality change? No, because it's all illusion in the first place, so no "movements" or apparent "changes" there are real. It's maya. The wheel of samsara itself is eternal, too: it will always exist, but its physical activities will exist only as an illusion. Your hope is not to remain on it.

That's how they think it goes, as I understand it.
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:16 pm
All minds are similar.
They are more unlike than they are similar.
Not according to my argument:
According to empirical fact. You cannot help but know it's so.

Do you really think an Einstein is "equal" in mind with the IQ-90 janitor who cleans the lab at nights? Their only similarity may be that they both have "minds" of some kind -- but what different minds they have!
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:16 pm
Intelligence, artistic, emotional, etc are due to the body not the mind.
Hmmm...you'll have to prove that.
Have you ever seen people who have struck?
"Struck"?

Struck what?
...a brain is made of many minds
Mine's not. Is yours?
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:16 pm Well, my dog has a mind. When I offer him a treat, I can see him think about how to get the treat. Are you saying he's equal to your mind, too?
Sure they were the same, but your mind and your dog's mind have been exposed to different things and learned different things so their contents are different now.
:D So the only difference is that I got to go to university, and Fido went to obedience school instead? :lol:
I believe in past lives.
Do you believe in the other essential elements of that belief, like karma, dharma, samsara, maya, caste, etc.?
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
But I think that I chose to come here.
Who asked you, and to whom did you make your choice?
I don't exactly know why I choose to come here. Perhaps to find the Absolute Truth.
Who asked you if you wanted to come?
Yours is illogical since it cannot answer the problem of evil mine can answer.
I don't see that you have any answer to the problem of evil at all: all you have is fatalism -- suffering is just a thing that happens, and isn't inherently "bad" or "evil" at all, from your worldview. In fact, nothing can be "evil" in your view, if you're consistent with it.

As for me, I can recognize things as "evil" or "good," and I have an understanding of evil, and one that gives me reason to regard it as "bad," and one that has a solution for evil as well. I don't see that you're ahead of me at all, there.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
It is unconditional so you cannot blame anyone.
Right. So now you're saying you haven't suffered.
No, when I said that.
Its' not "suffering," and it's not "bad." You asked for it, you say. So it's your reward, your pay-off, the wages of your choice. I don't think that view would give anybody reason to have any sympathy for you, or regard you as ill-used in some way.

You got what you asked for.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm You've been given what you asked for. And it's not unfair, so now you don't even need any appeal to "Divine Justice" anymore.
I didn't ask for it.
Sure you did. You chose to come here on an "unconditional" basis. You say you have no idea of why you did, and no memory of how it happened; but you assure me it was entirely your choice. You've said so several times, now.

So yes, you asked for it. That's the only possible conclusion.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
Because it makes sense as I stated.
You're not able to answer the question? I'll put it again: WHO told you about this?
I reach to this conclusion.
I don't even understand that answer, if that's what it's supposed to be.
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bahman
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Re: To Immanuel Can

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Immanuel Can wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:28 pm
bahman wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 3:33 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 10:00 pm
Okay, you can say they're being "deceptive and absurd." But you don't have an answer for them, do you? You don't have proof that "movement" or "eating" are real things...it's just that, to you, they look that way. But the Hindu is going to say, "Of course they look that way to you...you are experiencing maya."
It is a fact. Don't eat and you die. How do they prove that Maya is real?
Well, I agree with you that their case is implausible. But they do, themselves, believe it, I think. Their religious explanation of suffering requires several parts, working in relationship: suffering, maya, reincarnation, caste, karma, dharma (duty), Cosmic Spirit, desire, and the unreality of all matter, among other things. And no part of that can be pulled out of the others without the whole thing falling apart, because each explains some key question caused by the others.

For example, why is reincarnation necessary to believe in? Because suffering (samsara) is so evident, and justice is apparently absent in one life. How is justice achieved in many lives? By karma, transfered moral praise or blame from one incarnation to the next, so that justice is achieved over the entire cycle of lives, even when it's not evident in one life. What does this mean for the next life? Caste: you will be reincarnated at the level of karma one generated in the last life, oblivious to one's arrival. How do I improve that? Do your duty (dharma) at your caste level, and you will improve. How do I escape samsara? Repress desire until you realize all is maya, abandon desire, and become enlightened. Then you can escape to Hindu paradise, soul-extinction or Nirvana through being an enlightened one...you will be off the wheel of reincarnations, of samsara...

It's all tied together in Eastern thought. All of it is required for any of it to work.
How does karma is calculated and applied to life of people?
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 10:00 pm
Is there a change when they find an answer to a question too?
It depends on what you mean by "change." Does the mind change? Yes. Does the physical reality change? No, because it's all illusion in the first place, so no "movements" or apparent "changes" there are real. It's maya. The wheel of samsara itself is eternal, too: it will always exist, but its physical activities will exist only as an illusion. Your hope is not to remain on it.

That's how they think it goes, as I understand it.
So the mind changes! So following my argument, there is an irreducible substance that experiences mind and causes mind.
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:16 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:16 pm
They are more unlike than they are similar.
Not according to my argument:
According to empirical fact. You cannot help but know it's so.

Do you really think an Einstein is "equal" in mind with the IQ-90 janitor who cleans the lab at nights? Their only similarity may be that they both have "minds" of some kind -- but what different minds they have!
Each mind has the ability to understand and think. Intelligence however is the result of many minds working with each other. It is matter how minds are wired with each other and what minds have been exposed to.
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:16 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:16 pm
Hmmm...you'll have to prove that.
Have you ever seen people who have struck?
"Struck"?

Struck what?
I mean stroke.
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:16 pm
...a brain is made of many minds
Mine's not. Is yours?
Sure. I talk with my subconscious mind all the time.
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:16 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:16 pm Well, my dog has a mind. When I offer him a treat, I can see him think about how to get the treat. Are you saying he's equal to your mind, too?
Sure they were the same, but your mind and your dog's mind have been exposed to different things and learned different things so their contents are different now.
:D So the only difference is that I got to go to university, and Fido went to obedience school instead? :lol:
It is a matter of how minds are wired together too.
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:16 pm
I believe in past lives.
Do you believe in the other essential elements of that belief, like karma, dharma, samsara, maya, caste, etc.?
I don't believe in karma, dharma, and maya. I believe in absolute truth and suffering.
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:16 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
Who asked you, and to whom did you make your choice?
I don't exactly know why I choose to come here. Perhaps to find the Absolute Truth.
Who asked you if you wanted to come?
There was a voice that told me that I will find the Absolute Truth.
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:16 pm
Yours is illogical since it cannot answer the problem of evil mine can answer.
I don't see that you have any answer to the problem of evil at all: all you have is fatalism -- suffering is just a thing that happens, and isn't inherently "bad" or "evil" at all, from your worldview. In fact, nothing can be "evil" in your view, if you're consistent with it.
No evil exists in my view. Bad is different from evil.
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:16 pm As for me, I can recognize things as "evil" or "good," and I have an understanding of evil, and one that gives me reason to regard it as "bad," and one that has a solution for evil as well. I don't see that you're ahead of me at all, there.
No, you recognize evil but you cannot justify it from a God who is Good.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
Right. So now you're saying you haven't suffered.
No, when I said that.
Its' not "suffering," and it's not "bad." You asked for it, you say. So it's your reward, your pay-off, the wages of your choice. I don't think that view would give anybody reason to have any sympathy for you, or regard you as ill-used in some way.

You got what you asked for.
I didn't ask for anything. Everything that I perceive, good or evil, is unconditional.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm You've been given what you asked for. And it's not unfair, so now you don't even need any appeal to "Divine Justice" anymore.
I didn't ask for it.
Sure you did. You chose to come here on an "unconditional" basis. You say you have no idea of why you did, and no memory of how it happened; but you assure me it was entirely your choice. You've said so several times, now.

So yes, you asked for it. That's the only possible conclusion.
I just wanted to come to this world. That is it. Whatever I get is unconditional though.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
You're not able to answer the question? I'll put it again: WHO told you about this?
I reach to this conclusion.
I don't even understand that answer, if that's what it's supposed to be.
I understood that there is a spiritual world and people come to this world for different reasons.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: To Immanuel Can

Post by Immanuel Can »

bahman wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 6:52 pm How does karma is calculated and applied to life of people?
That's a big question, and again, it's part of the "whole worldview" that is necessary to Hinduism and Buddhism. It has to do with the idea of a division between the spirtual and the material, and "the God," i.e. their ultimate cosmic "oneness" or "mind" reckoning things. But it's one heck of a big question to try to answer in full here.
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 10:00 pm
Is there a change when they find an answer to a question too?
It depends on what you mean by "change." Does the mind change? Yes. Does the physical reality change? No, because it's all illusion in the first place, so no "movements" or apparent "changes" there are real. It's maya. The wheel of samsara itself is eternal, too: it will always exist, but its physical activities will exist only as an illusion. Your hope is not to remain on it.

That's how they think it goes, as I understand it.
So the mind changes!

Sort of. In their view, it doesn't change positionally or materially. So there's no "movement" and no "distance" being involved.

I guess you could think of it this way: when you say, "My mind is rambling," your body may remain sitting. We might say that in your ideas, you "move," but not in any physical dimension.

So no, that doesn't let us get into "substances" and "causes" from there.
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:16 pm
Not according to my argument:
According to empirical fact. You cannot help but know it's so.

Do you really think an Einstein is "equal" in mind with the IQ-90 janitor who cleans the lab at nights? Their only similarity may be that they both have "minds" of some kind -- but what different minds they have!
Each mind has the ability to understand and think.
The janitor has no ability to think the thoughts of Einstein. A hundred years of study would not make him Einstein, because his whole IQ is only 90. He lacks the quality of mind of an Einstein, and nothing circumstantial will ever change that.
Intelligence however is the result of many minds working with each other.
Not at all.

Einstein will still have an IQ of around 160, which is the maximum for a human being. The janitor's IQ is at the level of a little less than 10% of the world's population. No amount of anything will produce a 160 out of a 90 mind.

And even if he were alone all his life, Einstein's IQ would still be what it was, and so would the janitor's, even if he were surrounded by brilliant others.

IQ is not a function of experience, but of capacity.
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:16 pm
Have you ever seen people who have struck?
"Struck"?

Struck what?
I mean stroke.
Yes, I've seen a person who has had a stroke.
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:16 pm
...a brain is made of many minds
Mine's not. Is yours?
Sure. I talk with my subconscious mind all the time.
A "subconscious" is, by definition, not conscious of itself. So no, you can't be. Whomever you're talking to, it isn't "subconscious."
I believe in absolute truth and suffering.
Then you can't, in consistency, believe in reincarnation, or that truth is relative, or that suffering is something you've chosen and isn't evil.
There was a voice that told me that I will find the Absolute Truth.
And you say you remember this? And you have some reason to think this "voice" was telling you the truth?
Bad is different from evil.
Is evil bad?
you recognize evil but you cannot justify it from a God who is Good.
Actually, there are very good explanations for the existence of evil, granted a good God. We were working on some of those earlier, but you moved to other topics. We can go back to that question when you wish.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
No, when I said that.
Its' not "suffering," and it's not "bad." You asked for it, you say. So it's your reward, your pay-off, the wages of your choice. I don't think that view would give anybody reason to have any sympathy for you, or regard you as ill-used in some way.

You got what you asked for.
I didn't ask for anything.
You chose it, you say.

You got what you chose. It's hard to feel any sympathy for somebody who's chosen to cause his/her own suffering.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
I didn't ask for it.
Sure you did. You chose to come here on an "unconditional" basis. You say you have no idea of why you did, and no memory of how it happened; but you assure me it was entirely your choice. You've said so several times, now.

So yes, you asked for it. That's the only possible conclusion.
I just wanted to come to this world.

Why? Did you want to suffer?
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bahman
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Re: To Immanuel Can

Post by bahman »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 7:11 pm
bahman wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 6:52 pm How does karma is calculated and applied to life of people?
That's a big question, and again, it's part of the "whole worldview" that is necessary to Hinduism and Buddhism. It has to do with the idea of a division between the spirtual and the material, and "the God," i.e. their ultimate cosmic "oneness" or "mind" reckoning things. But it's one heck of a big question to try to answer in full here.
Okay. I remember that I asked this question in a Buddhist forum but they didn't have any answer for it.
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 7:11 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 10:00 pm
It depends on what you mean by "change." Does the mind change? Yes. Does the physical reality change? No, because it's all illusion in the first place, so no "movements" or apparent "changes" there are real. It's maya. The wheel of samsara itself is eternal, too: it will always exist, but its physical activities will exist only as an illusion. Your hope is not to remain on it.

That's how they think it goes, as I understand it.
So the mind changes!

Sort of. In their view, it doesn't change positionally or materially. So there's no "movement" and no "distance" being involved.

I guess you could think of it this way: when you say, "My mind is rambling," your body may remain sitting. We might say that in your ideas, you "move," but not in any physical dimension.

So no, that doesn't let us get into "substances" and "causes" from there.
So if mind changes then it is contingent, and needs a sustainer. Isn't that true? I think they are dealing with a paradox: a changeless thing that changes.
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:16 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:16 pm
According to empirical fact. You cannot help but know it's so.

Do you really think an Einstein is "equal" in mind with the IQ-90 janitor who cleans the lab at nights? Their only similarity may be that they both have "minds" of some kind -- but what different minds they have!
Each mind has the ability to understand and think.
The janitor has no ability to think the thoughts of Einstein. A hundred years of study would not make him Einstein, because his whole IQ is only 90. He lacks the quality of mind of an Einstein, and nothing circumstantial will ever change that.
But the janitor has the capacity to think and understand certain things. You are mixing the ability to think with intelligence.
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:16 pm
Intelligence however is the result of many minds working with each other.
Not at all.

Einstein will still have an IQ of around 160, which is the maximum for a human being. The janitor's IQ is at the level of a little less than 10% of the world's population. No amount of anything will produce a 160 out of a 90 mind.

And even if he were alone all his life, Einstein's IQ would still be what it was, and so would the janitor's, even if he were surrounded by brilliant others.

IQ is not a function of experience, but of capacity.
And how IQ of different people is different? I mean they all have brains which are consist of neurons.
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:16 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:16 pm
"Struck"?

Struck what?
I mean stroke.
Yes, I've seen a person who has had a stroke.
So you know that intelligence, emotion, etc. could be impaired by stroke? Does your mind change when you have a stroke? How about when you are in a coma? Does your mind disappear when you die?
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:16 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:16 pm
Mine's not. Is yours?
Sure. I talk with my subconscious mind all the time.
A "subconscious" is, by definition, not conscious of itself. So no, you can't be. Whomever you're talking to, it isn't "subconscious."
I call it the subconscious mind to emphasize the hierarchy otherwise all minds are conscious.
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:16 pm
I believe in absolute truth and suffering.
Then you can't, in consistency, believe in reincarnation, or that truth is relative, or that suffering is something you've chosen and isn't evil.
There was a voice that told me that I will find the Absolute Truth.
And you say you remember this? And you have some reason to think this "voice" was telling you the truth?
I am telling you the truth.
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:16 pm
Bad is different from evil.
Is evil bad?
No, evil is a state of mind. Bad is an action/choice prohibited.
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 9:16 pm
you recognize evil but you cannot justify it from a God who is Good.
Actually, there are very good explanations for the existence of evil, granted a good God. We were working on some of those earlier, but you moved to other topics. We can go back to that question when you wish.
How about opening another thread and discussing it there?
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
Its' not "suffering," and it's not "bad." You asked for it, you say. So it's your reward, your pay-off, the wages of your choice. I don't think that view would give anybody reason to have any sympathy for you, or regard you as ill-used in some way.

You got what you asked for.
I didn't ask for anything.
You chose it, you say.

You got what you chose. It's hard to feel any sympathy for somebody who's chosen to cause his/her own suffering.
Accepting things unconditionally is different from choosing things.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:48 pm
Sure you did. You chose to come here on an "unconditional" basis. You say you have no idea of why you did, and no memory of how it happened; but you assure me it was entirely your choice. You've said so several times, now.

So yes, you asked for it. That's the only possible conclusion.
I just wanted to come to this world.

Why? Did you want to suffer?
First, I had good moments in my life too. Why do I choose to come to this world? How about having a sense of wonder for a while. You know, the eternal life when you know and practice everything becomes extremely boring since you eventually get used to things.
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