To Immanuel Can

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: To Immanuel Can

Post by Immanuel Can »

bahman wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 10:20 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 10:09 pm Again, let's figure out what you're concerned about. What does "worshipping" entail, in your view?
Worship: The feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity.
Okay. Is that what you personally think of, when you hear the word, or is it more of a dictionary definition that you think might be somewhat right?

The reason I ask is that you seem to think it's a bad thing, something you don't want to end up doing...so there must be some bad aspect of it that's not caught up in that definition, I'm guessing.

Can you tell me what that bad thing might be?
I had a very high level of depression with the tendency to kill or rape people. My depression is gone but my tendencies are not. I am in a constant fight to don't do something wrong.
Ah. That would be hard to deal with.

Well, can I tell you what the Bible says about that?

It calls it "being a slave to sin."

It's a metaphor, of course. A slave has no options, right? He has to do what the "master" is compelling him to do, because the force in play is too great for him to overcome. And in some ways, we're all that, at least when we start out. There's a compulsion in us to do what we, in our better moments, know we should not do. And we don't seem to have a lot of power personally to overcome that.

And some kinds of "slavery" are worse than others. Addiction, whether to drugs or gambling or alcohol, can be a very tough slavery to deal with. Sex addiction, equally bad. But nobody thinks of the compulsion to anger or violence, or the inclination to lie, which can also be very, very hard things to deal with.

What you're describing must be very hard to endure, and harder to keep under control. I can only imagine.

The thing about being a "slave," though, is that if the force being used against you is too great for you to deal with personally, you're going to need some help, aren't you? I mean, if it's not that bad, if you can master it yourself, maybe not; but you'll still be dealing with those feelings, that depression, and the impulse to hurt others. And even if you conquer that, how hard will it be to spend your whole life fighting, alone? Not great, I'm thinking.

So a "slave" needs help. But where is he going to turn for the kind of help he needs, when the problem is inside? Who can help him change what he is?

That's the description of the problem, as the Bible sees it. And it also proposes a solution. But people sometime prefer the slavery to the solution, because the solution is a thing called "the death of self." That also is a metaphor. But it's a metaphor that also articulates a reality. It's that God Himself, who made man, can reconstruct man, and can remove those desires and impulses. But it's going to cost the man the person he already is, in the sense that he's going to become a new man. And not everybody is willing for that.

That's why the Bible speaks of being "born again." It means a fresh start, with one being reconstituted as a new person.

So the question the Bible puts to us is, do you want that, or not?
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bahman
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Re: To Immanuel Can

Post by bahman »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 12:20 am
bahman wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 10:20 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 10:09 pm Again, let's figure out what you're concerned about. What does "worshipping" entail, in your view?
Worship: The feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity.
Okay. Is that what you personally think of, when you hear the word, or is it more of a dictionary definition that you think might be somewhat right?

The reason I ask is that you seem to think it's a bad thing, something you don't want to end up doing...so there must be some bad aspect of it that's not caught up in that definition, I'm guessing.

Can you tell me what that bad thing might be?
I don't think I can enforce my feeling toward something or somebody. Our likes or dislikes are natural and it is a matter accustomed to something or somebody. I cannot like Christian God from what I see on the earth.

Moreover, I have an argument against God so why should I try to like or dislike such a God.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 10:09 pm
I had a very high level of depression with the tendency to kill or rape people. My depression is gone but my tendencies are not. I am in a constant fight to don't do something wrong.
Ah. That would be hard to deal with.

Well, can I tell you what the Bible says about that?

It calls it "being a slave to sin."

It's a metaphor, of course. A slave has no options, right? He has to do what the "master" is compelling him to do, because the force in play is too great for him to overcome. And in some ways, we're all that, at least when we start out. There's a compulsion in us to do what we, in our better moments, know we should not do. And we don't seem to have a lot of power personally to overcome that.

And some kinds of "slavery" are worse than others. Addiction, whether to drugs or gambling or alcohol, can be a very tough slavery to deal with. Sex addiction, equally bad. But nobody thinks of the compulsion to anger or violence, or the inclination to lie, which can also be very, very hard things to deal with.

What you're describing must be very hard to endure, and harder to keep under control. I can only imagine.

The thing about being a "slave," though, is that if the force being used against you is too great for you to deal with personally, you're going to need some help, aren't you? I mean, if it's not that bad, if you can master it yourself, maybe not; but you'll still be dealing with those feelings, that depression, and the impulse to hurt others. And even if you conquer that, how hard will it be to spend your whole life fighting, alone? Not great, I'm thinking.

So a "slave" needs help. But where is he going to turn for the kind of help he needs, when the problem is inside? Who can help him change what he is?

That's the description of the problem, as the Bible sees it. And it also proposes a solution. But people sometime prefer the slavery to the solution, because the solution is a thing called "the death of self." That also is a metaphor. But it's a metaphor that also articulates a reality. It's that God Himself, who made man, can reconstruct man, and can remove those desires and impulses. But it's going to cost the man the person he already is, in the sense that he's going to become a new man. And not everybody is willing for that.

That's why the Bible speaks of being "born again." It means a fresh start, with one being reconstituted as a new person.

So the question the Bible puts to us is, do you want that, or not?
So I should become a good Christian while I cannot believe in God?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: To Immanuel Can

Post by Immanuel Can »

bahman wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 4:48 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 12:20 am
bahman wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 10:20 pm
Worship: The feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity.
Okay. Is that what you personally think of, when you hear the word, or is it more of a dictionary definition that you think might be somewhat right?

The reason I ask is that you seem to think it's a bad thing, something you don't want to end up doing...so there must be some bad aspect of it that's not caught up in that definition, I'm guessing.

Can you tell me what that bad thing might be?
I don't think I can enforce my feeling toward something or somebody.
I didn't ask that you should. And as for me, I always have my option to agree or not. So you're not "forcing" anybody to do anything.

All I asked you is why you, personally, find the idea of "worship" problematic. You seem to think it's something you don't want to do, and you say as much; I just don't know why it strikes you as so appalling.
So I should become a good Christian while I cannot believe in God?
No, I did not say so much. I only offered the Biblical account to allow you to consider whether or not it seems at all illuminating to your experience.

You should decide whether or not what God says being a slave to sin sounds anything like what you were describing. And then, if you want to, you can say.

That's all.
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Re: To Immanuel Can

Post by bahman »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 7:32 pm
bahman wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 4:48 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 12:20 am
Okay. Is that what you personally think of, when you hear the word, or is it more of a dictionary definition that you think might be somewhat right?

The reason I ask is that you seem to think it's a bad thing, something you don't want to end up doing...so there must be some bad aspect of it that's not caught up in that definition, I'm guessing.

Can you tell me what that bad thing might be?
I don't think I can enforce my feeling toward something or somebody.
I didn't ask that you should. And as for me, I always have my option to agree or not. So you're not "forcing" anybody to do anything.

All I asked you is why you, personally, find the idea of "worship" problematic. You seem to think it's something you don't want to do, and you say as much; I just don't know why it strikes you as so appalling.
To me, we are a community of minds all are equal. There is no higher or lower.
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Re: To Immanuel Can

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Yeah let’s worship a serial killer IC …good idea!

Let’s worship brain cancer forcing out one’s eyeballs to protude from their sockets like they were on stalks.
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Re: To Immanuel

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Let’s worship child sex trafficking and pedophilia and nuclear fall out killing innocent children causing them to experience hideous cancers.

Yeah let’s all be great full for the all things bright and beautiful hell hole.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: To Immanuel Can

Post by Immanuel Can »

bahman wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 8:08 pmTo me, we are a community of minds all are equal. There is no higher or lower.
Okay, but who does "we" and "community" include? Surely not God, right? None of us could suppose we're anywhere equal to God, supposing He exists; He's not part of our human "community" and so there's no "equal" with Him.

So what makes the act of worshipping seem bad to you, assuming we're recoginizing that fact?
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Re: To Immanuel Can

Post by bahman »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 9:46 pm
bahman wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 8:08 pmTo me, we are a community of minds all are equal. There is no higher or lower.
Okay, but who does "we" and "community" include? Surely not God, right? None of us could suppose we're anywhere equal to God, supposing He exists; He's not part of our human "community" and so there's no "equal" with Him.

So what makes the act of worshipping seem bad to you, assuming we're recoginizing that fact?
Self-respect.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: To Immanuel Can

Post by Immanuel Can »

bahman wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 10:02 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 9:46 pm
bahman wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 8:08 pmTo me, we are a community of minds all are equal. There is no higher or lower.
Okay, but who does "we" and "community" include? Surely not God, right? None of us could suppose we're anywhere equal to God, supposing He exists; He's not part of our human "community" and so there's no "equal" with Him.

So what makes the act of worshipping seem bad to you, assuming we're recognizing that fact?
Self-respect.
I'm not seeing it.

How would worshipping the Supreme Being constitute a lack of "self-respect" for a contingent, created, limited one?

I wonder if you have a sense of what the word "worship" means...could it be that you're not sure?
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Re: To Immanuel Can

Post by bahman »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 10:18 pm
bahman wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 10:02 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 9:46 pm Okay, but who does "we" and "community" include? Surely not God, right? None of us could suppose we're anywhere equal to God, supposing He exists; He's not part of our human "community" and so there's no "equal" with Him.

So what makes the act of worshipping seem bad to you, assuming we're recognizing that fact?
Self-respect.
I'm not seeing it.

How would worshipping the Supreme Being constitute a lack of "self-respect" for a contingent, created, limited one?
Assuming that I am contingent, created, and limited, I have self-respect, so I don't think that I am higher or lower than anything. Could you tell me on what principle God is higher than us?
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 10:18 pm I wonder if you have a sense of what the word "worship" means...could it be that you're not sure?
How do you define it? Is worshiping is necessary because of the fact that God higher than us? Why God does not humble Himself? That is a great virtue!
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Immanuel Can
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Re: To Immanuel Can

Post by Immanuel Can »

bahman wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 10:36 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 10:18 pm
bahman wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 10:02 pm
Self-respect.
I'm not seeing it.

How would worshipping the Supreme Being constitute a lack of "self-respect" for a contingent, created, limited one?
Assuming that I am contingent, created, and limited, I have self-respect, so I don't think that I am higher or lower than anything. Could you tell me on what principle God is higher than us?
Well, we don’t have to “assume” those conditions. IF God exists, He’s certain to be higher. He’s going to be a necessary Being, though we are going to be contingent; He is going to be the Creator, and we the created; He is going to be unlimited, but we are going to be limited. That’s all just definitional, so we can take that for granted…if God exists.

We might add other things, as well. The Supreme God is bound to be perfect in ways we are not, better in moral categories than we are, sovereign in power, and so on. But we should pause, because I want to give you opportunity to respond as you see fit.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 10:18 pm I wonder if you have a sense of what the word "worship" means...could it be that you're not sure?
How do you define it?
I realize that the word has come to have, in many ordinary minds, some kind of connotation of grovelling or obsequiousness, or unnecessary self-abasement. If you were thinking of that kind of thing, I might understand why you would not like the word.

However, the Biblical definition is “to know (and act upon) the actual “worth” of a subject.” You might call it “worth-ship.” It just means knowing who God is, relative to who you are, and acting accordingly.
Is worshiping is necessary because of the fact that God higher than us?
It’s necessary because it reflects an understanding of the truths I’ve listed above. The alternative is to not-know-the-worth of things…hardly a good alternative.
Why God does not humble Himself? That is a great virtue!
Well, there’s no intrinsic reason He should, of course. It’s a virtue to be humble only to the point of truth…if one is humble to the point of lying about oneself, one has gone beyond virtue and into a new kind of vice. What we should expect is that God should know and tell the truth about Himself…and being the greatest Being in the universe, that’s not less than He can say, while being honest.

However, the Christian narrative says that God has humbled Himself. He has come down to man in human form…not because God doesn’t know what He’s worth, but because mankind couldn’t relate to Him without an embodied person to know, and man’s desperate situation could not be dealt with except by somebody who partook of all that man undergoes. So the message is that God has humbled Himself for the good of mankind…and the question comes back, will man humble himself and estimate himself rightly, for the sake of receiving what God has done for him?
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Re: To Immanuel Can

Post by promethean75 »

"He has come down to man in human form…not because God doesn’t know what He’s worth, but because mankind couldn’t relate to Him without an embodied person to know"

No competent 'god' would do it like that. I'm tryna tell you. A competent 'god' would expect no reasonable person to ever believe a human being who told them they were 'god' or the son of 'god'... if only because hundreds if not thousands of self acclaimed messiahs, prophets, and divine personalities have walked the earth before Jesus and since.

Precisely because it is possible some other messianic guy, say a guy named Mohammed, could convince enough people to start another religion that would not only eventually claim a third of the people on erf, but also be at eternal odds with Christianity and Judaism, 'god's' means of establishing contact wouldn't be by sending some dude down to erf.

'He' would know not to do that. 'He' 'himself' would be an atheist if 'he' were in our shoes, faced with the decision to have faith in and trust something like the abrahamic religions.

See what I mean? 'God' wouldn't commit such a gaff. This is why we can dismiss out of hand the Jewish, Christian and Muslim religions.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: To Immanuel Can

Post by Immanuel Can »

promethean75 wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 11:44 pm No competent 'god' would do it like that.
That's amazing. You know what a "competent god" would do.

I'm so impressed! You're greater than the Almighty!

May I have your autograph? :lol:
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Re: To Immanuel Can

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Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 10:18 pm
I wonder if you have a sense of what the word "worship" means...could it be that you're not sure?

How superior and condescending of you to say.

Oh well, here we go, here's my two pennies worth of worship for today....

Dear Jesus, I know that I am a sinner Lord, and I ask for Your forgiveness. I believe You died for my sins and rose from the dead. And for that I am saved from sin thank you Lord. I am forever in your debt.

Now I finally know that I am You and You are me. So do you think now, we can we just stop apologising to each other and get a fucking life. You know, like that old saying '' Before enlightenment chop wood carry water - After enlightenment chop wood carry water ''

Jeeeze, how much more bloody blood do you want for your sake! how much more blood do have I to shed in order for you to be satisfied, before you say enough is enough.

How long do we have to keep sinning Lord just to make sure your bloody sacrifice was well worth the price you paid for it. When are you going to tell us we do not need to sin anymore, because you've already paid the price for it?

Or are we just meant to keep the bloody stupid story going forever and ever just because you are an addict to being a narcissistic deity who cannot get through one single day without the urge to adore the image of yourself in the mirror over and over again. Don't you know that mirror is going to crack into a million shards one day from over-use, then what you going to do, when all you'll see is distortion, your distortion staring right back at you.

I mean ffs, just get a life zombie, oh that's right you've already got one. You keep reminding us over and over and over again, the same old story, the never ending story....ok ok we get it, we really do.. please, please I'm begging you now, please just shut the fuck up before you lose your mind and go insane, and then what.. oh that's right, you'll be nothing like everything else in this dream you dreamt, this fictional story you wrote...and then kept on repeating it over and over to anyone who would be daft enough to listen.


.
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Re: To Immanuel Can

Post by Dontaskme »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 10:58 pm IF God exists
There is no IF

Are you tripping again IC?


Why the doubt, when you are already here to be able to say the word IF

Oh, you do make me laugh IC :lol:

In fact you make me laugh so much, I'm going to spend the rest of my life making myself laugh at my own mirror image.

So far I have not been banned from this forum, so I must be getting something right. :lol: I'm must be passing the test with flying colours.
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