Deism

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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henry quirk
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Re: Deism

Post by henry quirk »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:41 am
henry quirk wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:36 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:08 am

I have many faults, but spite isn't one of them.
Okay.

So: what's your beef with me?
*I was referring to so-called 'deism'. **Personally, I rather like you.
*So, what's your beef with deism? Why is it a joke?

**😲
promethean75
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Re: Deism

Post by promethean75 »

"ass backwards...recognizin' natural rights and free will brought me to God"

No that can't be right either cuz there's no 'freewill' or 'natural rights' to lead you to a 'god' that doesn't exist.

that's just a big ol' mess of circular nonsense.
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henry quirk
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Re: Deism

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there's no 'freewill' or 'natural rights' to lead you to a 'god' that doesn't exist
So: you are bio-automation with no claim to yourself existing in a rudderless world.

Okay.
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Re: Deism

Post by promethean75 »

you are inferring through modus henryandus that to be something other than a bio-automation, have a claim to oneself, and exist in a world that has rudders, one must possess freewill and natural rights.

i argue through modus promens that one can, and does, have those things without needing to have freewill or natural rights.
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henry quirk
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Re: Deism

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i argue...one can, and does, have those things without needing to have freewill or natural rights
I don't see how that can be.
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iambiguous
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Re: Deism

Post by iambiguous »

Okay, henry...
Also, in regard to the Deist God, to you and to how you construe the meaning of life, liberty and property, how do you connect the dots ?

Did He provide mere mortals with the innate capacity to grasp them logically, rationally, naturally?

Or, instead, is it more reasonable that individuals born in very, very different historical and cultural and experiential contexts and living very, very, very different lives were/are likely to come to many, many different [and ofttimes conflicting] understandings of what they mean.

In other words, if one goes around the globe and encounters many, many Deists, are they likely to all share your own political convictions regarding guns and weapons of mass destruction, or, instead, will they be situated all along the liberal to conservative political spectrum?
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henry quirk
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Re: Deism

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my favorite idiot wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2023 6:06 pm in regard to the Deist God, to you and to how you construe the meaning of life, liberty and property, how do you connect the dots ?
I connect the dots...
henry quirk wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:35 am...ass backwards...recognizin' natural rights and free will brought me to God, God didn't bring me to natural rights and free will
Did He provide mere mortals with the innate capacity to grasp them logically, rationally, naturally?
Nope. It's all intuitive. You know your life, your liberty, your property are yours and no one else's.
Or, instead, is it more reasonable that individuals born in very, very different historical and cultural and experiential contexts and living very, very, very different lives were/are likely to come to many, many different [and ofttimes conflicting] understandings of what they mean.
All that historical & cultural & experiential hooey doesn't negate what any person knows about himself: that his life is his alone.
In other words, if one goes around the globe and encounters many, many Deists, are they likely to all share your own political convictions regarding guns and weapons of mass destruction, or, instead , will they be situated all along the liberal to conservative political spectrum?
You're conflating. Deism only speaks to a particular view on God. In other words: bein' a deist or theist or agnostic or atheist or whatever is no guarantee the deist, theist, agnostic, atheist or whatever will recognize and respect the other guy's natural rights (but you damn well better believe that deist, theist, agnostic, atheist, or whatever will expect the other guy to recognize and respect his).
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Re: Deism

Post by promethean75 »

The only way to get past the irresolvable conflicts produced by moral objectivism and subjectivism and the nature of rights is to assert a complete and total amoralism, even eating each other if necessary. Thus
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iambiguous
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Re: Deism

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my favorite idiot wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2023 6:06 pm in regard to the Deist God, to you and to how you construe the meaning of life, liberty and property, how do you connect the dots ?
henry quirk wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:35 amI connect the dots...
henry quirk wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:35 am ...ass backwards...recognizin' natural rights and free will brought me to God, God didn't bring me to natural rights and free will
In other words, you don't really have a clue regarding where the Deist God fits into it all. Maybe He created you with the capacity to grasp the meaning of life, liberty and property logically, rationally and naturally...or maybe, rooted subjectively in dasein, given the life you lived, you came to think about them as you did existentially as political prejudices. But you needed something larger than yourself in which to anchor these prejudices.

For you it was Deism. And for these folks...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_r ... traditions

...another God or religious path altogether.
Did He provide mere mortals with the innate capacity to grasp them logically, rationally, naturally?
henry quirk wrote: Mon Aug 21, 2023 12:45 amNope. It's all intuitive. You know your life, your liberty, your property are yours and no one else's.
Come on, henry, how on Earth can you possible know that for certain? Intuitively? There's no Bible you can turn to, no scripture.

Though, again, how many of these folks...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_p ... ideologies

...will embrace intuition, as well, in defending completely different and conflicting convictions regarding life, liberty and property?

Hundreds and hundreds of dogmatists. And each and everyone insisting that, "no, my convictions are the one and the only real deal."
Or, instead, is it more reasonable that individuals born in very, very different historical and cultural and experiential contexts and living very, very, very different lives were/are likely to come to many, many different [and ofttimes conflicting] understandings of what they mean.
henry quirk wrote: Mon Aug 21, 2023 12:45 amAll that historical & cultural & experiential hooey doesn't negate what any person knows about himself: that his life is his alone.
And alone down through the ages historically and across the globe culturally and given all of vast and varied lives that each of us as individuals did and do live, we've come to many, many, many, many different assessments of what life, liberty and property means.
In other words, if one goes around the globe and encounters many, many Deists, are they likely to all share your own political convictions regarding guns and weapons of mass destruction, or, instead , will they be situated all along the liberal to conservative political spectrum?
You're conflating. Deism only speaks to a particular view on God. In other words: bein' a deist or theist or agnostic or atheist or whatever is no guarantee the deist, theist, agnostic, atheist or whatever will recognize and respect the other guy's natural rights (but you damn well better believe that deist, theist, agnostic, atheist, or whatever will expect the other guy to recognize and respect his).
How can they be natural rights and yet at the same time be utterly at odds down through the ages historically, culturally and experientially?

Then back to you "somehow" connecting the dots between the Deist God, property rights and...libertarianism. And if the communitarians and the socialists among us intuitively reject that assessment of property rights and embrace collectivism instead than they are naturally idiots?
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henry quirk
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Re: Deism

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iambiguous wrote: Mon Aug 21, 2023 4:49 pm
In other words, you don't really have a clue regarding where the Deist God fits into it all.
Well, I am a deist. I connect the dots back to a Great Mystery (I call Him Crom).
Come on, henry, how on Earth can you possible know that for certain?
How can you claim you don't?
Hundreds and hundreds of dogmatists. And each and everyone insisting that, "no, my convictions are the one and the only real deal."
Yes, except for when it comes to their own lives, liberties, and properties. They have all kinds of convictions about what the other guy ought to do. But they themselves are always exempt.
And alone down through the ages historically and across the globe culturally and given all of vast and varied lives that each of us as individuals did and do live, *we've come to many, many, many, many different assessments of what life, liberty and property means.
*Only when it comes to the other guy.
How can they be natural rights and yet at the same time be utterly at odds down through the ages historically, culturally and experientially?
It's not complicated. Your moral claim to yourself is natural; all that historical, cultural hooey is , well, hooey. Take a look at those cultural, experiential, and traditional paths. A great many of them constrain. Perfectiy in keeping with the idea that while no man will never willingly accept the leash, a great many men are willing to apply the leash to their fellows. That is: while preserving their own exclusive claim to their own lives, liberties, and properties they will violate the other guy's without battin' an eye. More simply: they make shit up to get a leg over.
if the communitarians and the socialists among us intuitively reject that assessment of property rights and embrace collectivism instead than they are naturally idiots?
Hypocrites is what they are. You ought to go without, but they never do.
Last edited by henry quirk on Tue Aug 22, 2023 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: Deism

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iambiguous wrote: Mon Aug 21, 2023 4:49 pm
henry quirk wrote: Mon Aug 21, 2023 12:45 amNope. It's all intuitive. You know your life, your liberty, your property are yours and no one else's.
Come on, henry, how on Earth can you possible know that for certain? Intuitively?
The exact same way that some people know they were born in a body with the wrong sex and that their gender is discontinuous with that biology. The reasoning is identical and that is why Henry is so well known for his openness to that sort of thing.
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Re: Deism

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iambiguous wrote: Mon Aug 21, 2023 4:49 pm And if the communitarians and the socialists among us intuitively reject that assessment of property rights and embrace collectivism instead than they are naturally idiots?
The "communicarians and socialists" don't reject property rights - that's a disingenious characterization. They literally want every single human to be a shareholder (and a beneficiary) to the means of production.

They want to internalize all profits.
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henry quirk
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Re: Deism

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The exact same way that some people know they were born in a body with the wrong sex and that their gender is discontinuous with that biology. The reasoning is identical and that is why Henry is so well known for his openness to that sort of thing.
The difference, of course, is: every one who has ever lived, every one who lives, and every one who will live, knows, down in his bones, his life, liberty, and property is his alone; only a select few fetishists go hog wild and declare themselves to be what they ain't.

It's reality vs nutjobbery.


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Skepdick
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Re: Deism

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henry quirk wrote: Tue Aug 22, 2023 11:36 am only a select few fetishists go hog wild and declare themselves to be what they ain't.
Have you perhaps declared yourself to be what you ain't? Free.

All them moral obligations are getting in my freedom's way...
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henry quirk
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Re: Deism

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Skepdick wrote: Tue Aug 22, 2023 11:55 amAll them moral obligations are getting in my freedom's way...
Pray tell.
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