Do you believe in miracles?

[Skepdick]

You are most definitely a believer, one that desperately needs to be one. Therefore there really is no ground for discussion. Live long and prosper!

There is definitely grounds for discussion!

It is 100% true that one of us in the conversation is a believer, or one that desperately needs to be one.

The grounds for dsicussion thus is to convince you that you have mis-identified who that person is.

[Skepdick]

Yes, I really do believe the basic belief in God is cosmic orderliness.

God might have access to that. We, humans don't.

From where we are looking nature is non-deterministic.

[Lacewing]

Given the infinite variety of men how anyone comes to hold a belief is more interesting than the belief itself.

Indeed!

(Including what they do with it, and how it serves them.)

[RCSaunders]

Yes, I really do believe the basic belief in God is cosmic orderliness.

Yes, I really do believe the basic belief in God is cosmic orderliness (sic) comic nonsense.

There, fixed for you!

[Skepdick]

Yes, I really do believe the basic belief in God is cosmic orderliness (sic) comic nonsense.

There, fixed for you!

That's one way to reveal you are even dumber than I thought. A nitpicker incapable of charity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_order

[Sculptor]

According to Hume, a violation of natural law. ... , the evidence in favor of a miracle, even when that is provided by the strongest possible testimony, will always be outweighed by the evidence for the law of nature which is supposed to have been violated.

"I pronounce my decision, and always reject the greater miracle. If the falsehood of his testimony would be more miraculous, than the event which he relates; then, and not till then, can he pretend to command my belief or opinion." Hume Inquiry X,1

In other words it would take a miracle for Hume to believe one.

[henry quirk]

yep

what's more miraculous than self-directin' bags of dirty water arguin' with each, across great distances, about the nature of Reality?

the universe, best we can tell, is mostly empty...the tiny bit of material there is in that mostly empty space is mostly hydrogen...the tinier bit that isn't hydrogen is more complex...an even tinier bit of that complex material is animate...tiniest of all is the bit that's complex, animate, and aware of itself

if that ain't miraculous then I don't know what is

[Sculptor]

yep

what's more miraculous than self-directin' bags of dirty water arguin' with each, across great distances, about the nature of Reality?

the universe, best we can tell, is mostly empty...the tiny bit of material there is in that mostly empty space is mostly hydrogen...the tinier bit that isn't hydrogen is more complex...an even tinier bit of that complex material is animate...tiniest of all is the bit that's complex, animate, and aware of itself

if that ain't miraculous then I don't know what is

I'll tell you, what is miraculous!
Nothing, that is what is miraculous.
And there ain't none of that in the universe either.

The universe is what it is - get over it. No magic guy is going to come along and get you to live forever. When you die you get a whole shit storm of nothing - there is your fucking miracle if you need to beleive in one.

[henry quirk]

sculptor,

The universe is what it is - get over it. No magic guy is going to come along and get you to live forever.

ain't nuthin' in my deism sez there's an afterlife and as far as the magic guy, He's on vacation, or buildin' other Realties, or
kicked back watchin' this show, or dead, or...

in any scenario: I don't expect to live forever, as halo-wearer, pitchfork wielder, or anything else

When you die you get a whole shit storm of nothing - there is your fucking miracle if you need to beleive in one.

probably so

anywho: my previous post stands...

yep

what's more miraculous than self-directin' bags of dirty water arguin' with each, across great distances, about the nature of Reality?

the universe, best we can tell, is mostly empty...the tiny bit of material there is in that mostly empty space is mostly hydrogen...the tinier bit that isn't hydrogen is more complex...an even tinier bit of that complex material is animate...tiniest of all is the bit that's complex, animate, and aware of itself

if that ain't miraculous then I don't know what is

[RCSaunders]

Yes, I really do believe the basic belief in God is cosmic orderliness (sic) comic nonsense.

There, fixed for you!

That's one way to reveal you are even dumber than I thought. A nitpicker incapable of charity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_order

If I didn't love you, I wouldn't be trying to help you!

[promethean75]

I don't, but apparently Hot Chocolate does.

Not sayin that's a bad thing tho. Those guys are gonna need a miracle to make it to the rock 'n roll hall of fame.

Ohhhhhhhhhhh

(seriously, wtf is wrong with that guy's voice?)

[Age]

Some people don't believe in miracles, but some people do. Some even say that miracles happen everyday because highly improbable things happen all the time. Mathematically improbable things are to be expected, but we don't know exactly what improbable thing will happen and exactly when it will happen. For instance we expect someone to win the lottery, but we don't know who will win and when you will win.

Some people don't believe miracles in the sacred texts of religions. For me those miracles may be true or not, but it doesn't matter. What matters is the theological point of the story.

Jori,
Miracles are not available to those who engage in the process of critical thinking. The definition of miracles is an event/happening which defies the laws of nature inorder to occur, this simply doesn't happen. The holy scriptures were written at a time of great ignorance

And, when, in the future, people are reading these writings, if they were as JUDGMENTAL as this one is, then they ALSO could say that what was written in the days when these words are being written, they were written at a time of 'great ignorance' as well.

But, future people will become NOT as 'judgmental' as the people were at the time when this was being written, so they would NEVER write such an IGNORANT statement as you just did here.

Are you under some sort of illusion that in the time when this was being written that it was NOT of a time of 'great ignorance' AS WELL?

Or, do you seriously BELIEVE that in the days when you wrote this 'you' were NOT 'ignorant' "yourself"?

and they have made that ignorace scared to believers.

Is this like the example, at the time when this was being written, when there were people CLAIMING that;
"We NEED money to live", "The Universe BEGAN and is EXPANDING", or that " God is a he", and those BELIEVERS were 'trying to' make that 'IGNORANCE' sacred to "others"?

So, if the believer above all else wishes to remain a believer he/she must accept the absurd, the miracle.

And the EXACT SAME applies for EVERY generation of human beings. So, at ALL times while a human being is BELIEVING some 'thing' is true, when there is absolutely NO PROOF AT ALL for 'it', then they HAVE TO accept they they could be BELIEVING in the TOTALLY ABSURD.

[Age]

Do you know what the theological point of 'the' story is?

If yes, then how did you come to know?

Given the infinite variety of men how anyone comes to hold a belief is more interesting than the belief itself.

Maybe so, but this has absolutely NOTHING AT ALL to do with the ACTUAL CLARIFICATION that I was seeking and asking for here.

"jori" wrote; "What matters is the theological point of the story." So, I am just curios if "jori" knows what the theological point of 'the' story is. And, if yes, then I am just curios as to how they come to 'know' what the theological point of 'the' story is.

Also, how ANY one comes to hold a BELIEF is VERY EASY and VERY SIMPLE to come to learn, understand, and KNOW.

[promethean75]

Hey Age...

nocapss.jpg (40.9 KiB) Viewed 954 times

[Age]

Given the infinite variety of men how anyone comes to hold a belief is more interesting than the belief itself.

Indeed!

(Including what they do with it, and how it serves them.)

The WAY ALL of 'you', human beings, come to HOLD a BELIEF is the EXACT SAME WAY.

Even the WAY "lacewing" came to HOLD the BELIEF, which that one has, came about in the EXACT SAME WAY.

And, what "lacewing" does with that BELIEF, and how that BELIEF serves them, can be SEEN very CLEARLY in this forum here.