religion and morality

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 14706
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: Right here, a little less busy.

Re: religion and morality

Post by henry quirk »

You are absolutely certain that if others don't think as you do they wrong, dumb and diseased.
Or are morons, asswipes, pinheads, degenerates, idiots, deficients, nutjobs, loons, wrong-headed, and on and on.
It's not that He has a Judgment Day for you, but that you have a Judgment Day for Him.
I like it!

👍
User avatar
iambiguous
Posts: 7106
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:23 pm

Re: religion and morality

Post by iambiguous »

“God is dead”: What Nietzsche really meant
The death of God didn’t strike Nietzsche as an entirely good thing. Without a God, the basic belief system of Western Europe was in jeopardy.
Scotty Hendricks at Big Think website
Even if there was [a God], the Western world now knew that he hadn’t placed us at the center of the universe, and it was learning of the lowly origin from which man had evolved. We finally saw the true world. The universe wasn’t made solely for human existence anymore.
Indeed, consider the fact there was once a time when Christians thought 1] the Sun and everything "up there" revolved around the Earth and that 2] the entire universe was easily imagined as here on Earth, up there in Heaven and down somewhere in Hell.

And now science has revealed to us a universe comprised of "200 billion trillion stars" across an expanse of "94 Billion Light Years".

And that's before we get to the multiverse.

I and thou then?
Nietzsche feared that this understanding of the world would lead to pessimism — “a will to nothingness” that was antithetical to the life-affirming philosophy Nietzsche promoted.
Of course it can. For some. But Nietzsche himself was just one of hundreds and hundreds of others down through the ages who were able to "think up" a philosophy or a political ideology or a spiritual track or an assessment on nature that allowed them to anchor their Self comfortably into the next best thing: objectivism.
His fear of nihilism and our reaction to it was shown in The Will to Power, in which he wrote: “What I relate is the history of the next two centuries. I describe what is coming, what can no longer come differently: the advent of nihilism… For some time now our whole European culture has been moving as toward a catastrophe.”
Fortunately, however, for a select few, they could at least weather the catastrophe as one of the masters and not one of the slaves. God may be dead but this only allows for the Übermensch to "sort of" take His place down here. And, with any luck, you would continue live on through an eternal recurrence that at least guaranteed your master class rank through all eternity.

https://ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=186929
User avatar
iambiguous
Posts: 7106
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:23 pm

Re: religion and morality

Post by iambiguous »

Again, that's what makes Deism all the more preposterous as a religion. There is no Scripture to fall back on. There is no received Word. God is simply a "thought up" explanation for Reality. And then taking the general dictum that this God created humankind in order that each of us "own" ourselves and "follow the dictates of Reason and Nature", any and all Deists can then claim that however they think and feel about any of the moral conflagrations that continue to beset us, it is, what, interchangeable with any other?

Unless you count this:

"Thomas Paine is especially noteworthy both for his contributions to the cause of the American Revolution and for his writings in defense of Deism alongside the criticism of Abrahamic religions. In The Age of Reason (1793 – 1794) and other writings, he advocated Deism, promoted reason and freethought, and argued against institutionalized religions in general and the Christian doctrine in particular. The Age of Reason was short, readable, and probably the only Deistic treatise that continues to be read and influential today." wiki

Maybe Deists ought to fall back on WWPD: What Would Paine Do?

On the other hand, there are any number of things that you seem absolutely adamant about knowing. For example, everything under the Sun when it comes to conflicting moral and political value judgments. You are absolutely certain that if others don't think as you do they wrong, dumb and diseased.
henry quirk wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 12:09 amOr are morons, asswipes, pinheads, degenerates, idiots, deficients, nutjobs, loons, wrong-headed, and on and on.
Yes, of course, Mr. Snippet, Satyr.
It's not that He has a Judgment Day for you, but that you have a Judgment Day for Him.
henry quirk wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 12:09 amI like it!

👍
I'll bet you do. And, no doubt, He wouldn't have it any other way, would He?
Walker
Posts: 14247
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: religion and morality

Post by Walker »

Moralists often confuse what is ... with what should be.
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 14706
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: Right here, a little less busy.

Re: religion and morality

Post by henry quirk »

He wouldn't have it any other way, would He?
can't say...got no book to tell me one way or the other...might be: He's gonna burn me but good for blasphemy...*shrug*
User avatar
iambiguous
Posts: 7106
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:23 pm

Re: religion and morality

Post by iambiguous »

henry quirk wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 6:35 pm
He wouldn't have it any other way, would He?
can't say...got no book to tell me one way or the other...might be: He's gonna burn me but good for blasphemy...*shrug*
Again, that's the beauty of Deism. No Scripture. No received Word. You get to just "think up" whatever you like about Him and human morality. Whatever most comforts and consoles you.

And, sure, just shrug off the possibility of Judgment Day. Maybe there is, maybe there isn't.

In fact, Deists are all over the map about many things: https://answersingenesis.org/world-reli ... ing-deism/

"Even the famed deist Thomas Paine was forced to admit his inability to possess any real certainty concerning his own afterlife:

'I consider myself in the hands of my Creator, and that He will dispose of me after this life consistently with His justice and goodness. I leave all these matters to Him, as my Creator and friend, and I hold it to be presumption in man to make an article of faith as to what the Creator will do with us hereafter.'"


Here's the thing though...

He speaks of "this life" on this side of the grave being consistent with "His justice and goodness." So, as with the Christian God, the Deist God has His own understanding of justice and goodness. Only He leaves no Scripture behind for mere mortals to grasp it. Instead, He provides us with, what, an innate capacity to grasp these things by following the dictates of Reason and Nature? But even among Deists themselves there are conflicting paths chosen in regard to rational and natural behaviors.

The whole thing seems hopelessly bewildering and confusing.
jayjacobus
Posts: 1273
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:45 pm

Re: religion and morality

Post by jayjacobus »

iambiguous wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 7:50 pm
henry quirk wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 6:35 pm
He wouldn't have it any other way, would He?
can't say...got no book to tell me one way or the other...might be: He's gonna burn me but good for blasphemy...*shrug*
Again, that's the beauty of Deism. No Scripture. No received Word. You get to just "think up" whatever you like about Him and human morality. Whatever most comforts and consoles you.

And, sure, just shrug off the possibility of Judgment Day. Maybe there is, maybe there isn't.

In fact, Deists are all over the map about many things: https://answersingenesis.org/world-reli ... ing-deism/

"Even the famed deist Thomas Paine was forced to admit his inability to possess any real certainty concerning his own afterlife:

'I consider myself in the hands of my Creator, and that He will dispose of me after this life consistently with His justice and goodness. I leave all these matters to Him, as my Creator and friend, and I hold it to be presumption in man to make an article of faith as to what the Creator will do with us hereafter.'"


Here's the thing though...

He speaks of "this life" on this side of the grave being consistent with "His justice and goodness." So, as with the Christian God, the Deist God has His own understanding of justice and goodness. Only He leaves no Scripture behind for mere mortals to grasp it. Instead, He provides us with, what, an innate capacity to grasp these things by following the dictates of Reason and Nature? But even among Deists themselves there are conflicting paths chosen in regard to rational and natural behaviors.

The whole thing seems hopelessly bewildering and confusing.
We have natural inclinations but some are antisocial. By being rational we can live with law and order (if you can't determine right from wrong yourself).
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 14706
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: Right here, a little less busy.

Re: religion and morality

Post by henry quirk »

The whole thing seems hopelessly bewildering and confusing.
Only to a deficient.
User avatar
iambiguous
Posts: 7106
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:23 pm

Re: religion and morality

Post by iambiguous »

Again, that's the beauty of Deism. No Scripture. No received Word. You get to just "think up" whatever you like about Him and human morality. Whatever most comforts and consoles you.

And, sure, just shrug off the possibility of Judgment Day. Maybe there is, maybe there isn't.

In fact, Deists are all over the map about many things: https://answersingenesis.org/world-reli ... ing-deism/

"Even the famed deist Thomas Paine was forced to admit his inability to possess any real certainty concerning his own afterlife:

'I consider myself in the hands of my Creator, and that He will dispose of me after this life consistently with His justice and goodness. I leave all these matters to Him, as my Creator and friend, and I hold it to be presumption in man to make an article of faith as to what the Creator will do with us hereafter.'"


Here's the thing though...

He speaks of "this life" on this side of the grave being consistent with "His justice and goodness." So, as with the Christian God, the Deist God has His own understanding of justice and goodness. Only He leaves no Scripture behind for mere mortals to grasp it. Instead, He provides us with, what, an innate capacity to grasp these things by following the dictates of Reason and Nature? But even among Deists themselves there are conflicting paths chosen in regard to rational and natural behaviors.

The whole thing seems hopelessly bewildering and confusing.
henry quirk wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 8:06 pmOnly to a deficient.
Once again, Mr. Snippet weighs in with a crushing rebuttal.

8)
:roll:
:lol:
:wink:
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 14706
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: Right here, a little less busy.

Re: religion and morality

Post by henry quirk »

Once again, Mr. Snippet weighs in with a crushing rebuttal.
Deviate from the hackneyed script once in a while and you might get more outta me.
User avatar
iambiguous
Posts: 7106
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:23 pm

Re: religion and morality

Post by iambiguous »

Mr. Snippet wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 1:49 am
Deviate from the hackneyed script once in a while and you might get more outta me.
Right, like you don't make the same arguments yourself over and over and over again.

Or is that just with me?

You're whupped, my friend. All you have left with me now are snippets. That you're not embarrassed by that, however, is what we should focus in on next. Try to figure out why.

8)
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 14706
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: Right here, a little less busy.

Re: religion and morality

Post by henry quirk »

hack wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 3:02 am
garden-variety...predctabie...boring

try harder
popeye1945
Posts: 2119
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: religion and morality

Post by popeye1945 »

Religion in most cases if not all insists that some outside supernatural source brings us a morality to live by, which was always non-sense for even these pathetic attempts at understanding the world called religions were our species' early attempts to create order in a seemingly chaotic world. Life is a sensing thinking feeling conscious creator of meaning and meaning comes from nowhere else. When the bulk of humanity realizes this, we can put these old artifacts on a shelve to collect historical dust. To continue on untethered new in our understandings and create a mythology that is open and large enough for the expanse of the mind, at present these religions are as great burdens to humanity's journey into the future.
User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 16940
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: religion and morality

Post by Dontaskme »

Morality's meaning was born straight out of another meaning...the meaning of ''OUCH''

Again, morality is a man-made concept in this conception, the conception of the knower.
User avatar
iambiguous
Posts: 7106
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:23 pm

Re: religion and morality

Post by iambiguous »

jayjacobus wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 7:58 pm
iambiguous wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 7:50 pm
henry quirk wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 6:35 pm

can't say...got no book to tell me one way or the other...might be: He's gonna burn me but good for blasphemy...*shrug*
Again, that's the beauty of Deism. No Scripture. No received Word. You get to just "think up" whatever you like about Him and human morality. Whatever most comforts and consoles you.

And, sure, just shrug off the possibility of Judgment Day. Maybe there is, maybe there isn't.

In fact, Deists are all over the map about many things: https://answersingenesis.org/world-reli ... ing-deism/

"Even the famed deist Thomas Paine was forced to admit his inability to possess any real certainty concerning his own afterlife:

'I consider myself in the hands of my Creator, and that He will dispose of me after this life consistently with His justice and goodness. I leave all these matters to Him, as my Creator and friend, and I hold it to be presumption in man to make an article of faith as to what the Creator will do with us hereafter.'"


Here's the thing though...

He speaks of "this life" on this side of the grave being consistent with "His justice and goodness." So, as with the Christian God, the Deist God has His own understanding of justice and goodness. Only He leaves no Scripture behind for mere mortals to grasp it. Instead, He provides us with, what, an innate capacity to grasp these things by following the dictates of Reason and Nature? But even among Deists themselves there are conflicting paths chosen in regard to rational and natural behaviors.

The whole thing seems hopelessly bewildering and confusing.
We have natural inclinations but some are antisocial. By being rational we can live with law and order (if you can't determine right from wrong yourself).
If by natural you mean we come into this world hard-wired biologically to encompass/embody particular inclinations in our lives, that certainly seems true for all of us. But how do we come to acquire this set of inclinations and not that set? Liberal inclinations rather than conservative inclinations, religious inclinations rather than No God inclinations. Why are particular behaviors deemed to be antisocial by some while others embrace them wholeheartedly?

How is this not profoundly embedded in ever evolving historical and cultural contexts? And in the very different ways in which our individual lives might unfold existentially?

And given this what can philosophers tell us about the "wisest" behaviors? Such that laws can be enacted most closely aligned with the right thing to do.

Most here know my own prejudices in regard to that.
Post Reply