God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Lacewing
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Re: God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

Post by Lacewing »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:09 pm
Lacewing wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:30 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:18 pm Go back and look, if you care.
Where?
Several places. But I'm not investing the time to go back,
Does it take a long time to produce right now?
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:09 pmif you don't care, you don't care
If you have it, I want to see it.
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:09 pmYou can satisfy yourself another way, though: you can wait for the requested response, and then see what evidence I produce, as promised. And that will save you the search.
Why do we have to wait? You should produce it while you have our attention.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

Post by Immanuel Can »

Lacewing wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:22 pm Why do we have to wait?
Because patience is a virtue.
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Lacewing
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Re: God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

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Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:14 pm
Lacewing wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:22 pm Why do we have to wait?
Because patience is a virtue.
I suspected you would say that. Your prancy deception has become so predictable. :lol:
Skip
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Re: God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

Post by Skip »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:10 pm [ he doesn't suddenly become a whole new concept.]
Actually, it does. Are you unfamiliar with the convention of distinguishing the two with a capital?
Add a capital, call it a convention and that changes everything - by nullifying all the other cultures and their religions. That works exactly as long as you wield the biggest stick and dangle the biggest carrot.
Yes, conceptually, there could only ever be one such...and if, as you say, there is a reason a Supreme Being could not exist, I'm willing to hear it. But I have not heard any such reason yet.
There is no standard of comparison to measure the relative greatness of all beings. Conceptually, Donald Trump is the rightful POTUS. For which concept, there fortunately is a measurable standard.
I'm not saying you have to assume it. I'm saying we're discussing what would be the case IF such a Being exists.
Oh, IF! IF everything were otherwise, then everything would be different. Hypothetically.
[We know that it [God] has never been photographed or captured in the wild - much like a unicorn.]
Your expectation is that if a Supreme Being exists, you'd be able to "capture" Him? :shock:
My expectation is that if something exists, there is some evidence of its existence, yes. The lack of evidence of existence is the only thing we can be sure rainbow unicorns and gods have in common. (The teapot, as ever, is exempt.)
[Have you seen any objectively verifiable evidence? If so, please produce it]
Yes. And I will.
But I'm awaiting your reasons for saying that God is "imaginary," or "silliness," or "could not be." Those are strong claims of certainty, it seems to me; they would require some sort of concommitant evidence, if we are to think them to be rationally asserted.
You stand accused of six counts of first degree murder. Prove you didn't commit those crimes.

I do not possess the virtue of patience. Never put off till dawn whom you can hang tonight?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

Post by Immanuel Can »

Skip wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:51 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:10 pm [ he doesn't suddenly become a whole new concept.]
Actually, it does. Are you unfamiliar with the convention of distinguishing the two with a capital?
Add a capital, call it a convention and that changes everything - by nullifying all the other cultures and their religions.
No. It's a straightforward writing convention. https://english.stackexchange.com/quest ... d-and-gods.
Yes, conceptually, there could only ever be one such...and if, as you say, there is a reason a Supreme Being could not exist, I'm willing to hear it. But I have not heard any such reason yet.
There is no standard of comparison to measure the relative greatness of all beings.
Even if that were true, it would not follow that no such exists. If you don't believe in mountains or know how to measure the depth of the Pacific Ocean, that doesn't remotely imply that neither can exist.

In the same way, your saying, "I don't know what supreme means" does not imply no Supreme Being, or God, exists.
[We know that it [God] has never been photographed or captured in the wild - much like a unicorn.]
Your expectation is that if a Supreme Being exists, you'd be able to "capture" Him? :shock:
My expectation is that if something exists, there is some evidence of its existence, yes.
What procedure has led you to the conviction that no evidence for God exists?
But I'm awaiting your reasons for saying that God is "imaginary," or "silliness," or "could not be." Those are strong claims of certainty, it seems to me; they would require some sort of concommitant evidence, if we are to think them to be rationally asserted.
You stand accused of six counts of first degree murder. Prove you didn't commit those crimes.
:? :? :? I'm not seeing the relevance.

A person could answer: I wasn't there, I don't have access to a Walther PPK, the six all died of natural causes, I had no motive, means or opportunity, they died in 1653...there could be plenty of ways to prove I didn't do such a thing.

None of that constitutes any justification of your claim that God is "imaginary," "silliness" or "could not be." It's not even remotely topical.

So, am I to assume you were expressing a mere wish, rather than something you have reason to believe is a fact?
Skip
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Re: God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

Post by Skip »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:17 am [You stand accused of six counts of first degree murder. Prove you didn't commit those crimes.]
:? :? :? I'm not seeing the relevance.
Of course not. Avoiding relevance is your long suit.
A person could answer: I wasn't there,
Nobody claims to have seen you anywhere else.
I don't have access to a Walther PPK,
So? IF the murders took place, conceptually, it could have been done with a dump truck.
the six all died of natural causes
Ah, so you admit six people died!
I had no motive, means or opportunity,

But IF you had, you would have killed them; for the purpose of discussion, therefore, you did.
there could be plenty of ways to prove I didn't do such a thing.
Not if you don't know anything about the case except what I assert, based on no evidence.
They died in 1953
Those must have been some other people you killed, whose bodies were never found.
So, am I to assume you were expressing a mere wish, rather than something you have reason to believe is a fact?
You seem to enjoy assuming things, so go ahead.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

Post by Immanuel Can »

Skip wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 3:30 am Not if you don't know anything about the case except what I assert, based on no evidence.
Oh, I see. You're trying to make an argument by analogy...just one so bad I couldn't have imagined it. You're making the assumption I have no evidence. That's an assumption, of course...and as you will see, wrong.

But we've still got some work to do first. I still don't see from you a warrant for your claim that God is "imaginary" or "silly" or "cannot exist." What I see is only an admission that you have no knowledge of God...which I readily believe is true, but doesn't warrant any decision on the question either way.

Got anything that warrants your claims? Or was it just a bluff.
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Dontaskme
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Re: God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

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Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 4:07 am

Got anything that warrants your claims? Or was it just a bluff.
Knowledge of God, or knowledge of I ....is all bluff, it's the effect of it's own cause as and through the construction of mental make-up...

Knowledge is a play tool that the mind uses to satisfy it's wankery addictions, wanking off in the form of verbal come.

Where there's a will there's a way to wank off, thy will be done, thy kingdom come all over the earth, and it feels like heaven.

Pure verbal wankery. That's all.

Yer wrong Can. You know it, I know it, we all know it...but since you've made your bed so warm and cosy, all there is for you to do is lie in it and be forever in bed with your lie.

At the end of the day when your lying in bed...sleep comes and you disappear.

There's not even a you there who knows the exact moment they have fallen asleep, nor is there a you there who knows the exact moment you awaken from sleep, because by the time you look at the clock, you are already living in past tense. Welcome to the zombie jamboree. Say goodmorning to your pretend self.

Are you enjoying the show that you do not need to show up to ? :shock:


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Belinda
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Re: God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

Post by Belinda »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:18 pm
Belinda wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:33 pm Some people believe that the Absolute is also a Person i.e. God.
Yes, that would be me.

But I don't call Him "the Absolute," because that is misleading and abstract, rather than informative.
You are not usually stupid!

God is both the Absolute , and a person.

I am one who believes in the Absolute but don't believe the Absolute is a huge big person.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

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Belinda wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:56 pm God is both the Absolute , and a person.
It depends on what we mean by "the Absolute." There are "absolute" characteristics that God does not have.

Taoists believe "the Absolute" has to include such things as what we, in the West, would call "evil" or "destruction," or other such negative properties. Theirs is a binary view, in which good and evil are unified in "the Absolute." (Think of the yin-yang: it's darkness and light, but in a single circle, signifying eternality and the Absolute.)

But yes, God is a Person. And like all persons, He has particular intentions, will, characteristics, volition, purposes, identity, moral character, and so on. But each of those excludes the absolute opposite. For example, Scripture says,

"God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all." (1 John 1:5)

That's not the yin-yang. It's an "Absolute" of a particular character and nature.
Belinda
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Re: God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

Post by Belinda »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:16 pm
Belinda wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:56 pm God is both the Absolute , and a person.
It depends on what we mean by "the Absolute." There are "absolute" characteristics that God does not have.

Taoists believe "the Absolute" has to include such things as what we, in the West, would call "evil" or "destruction," or other such negative properties. Theirs is a binary view, in which good and evil are unified in "the Absolute." (Think of the yin-yang: it's darkness and light, but in a single circle, signifying eternality and the Absolute.)

But yes, God is a Person. And like all persons, He has particular intentions, will, characteristics, volition, purposes, identity, moral character, and so on. But each of those excludes the absolute opposite. For example, Scripture says,

"God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all." (1 John 1:5)

That's not the yin-yang. It's an "Absolute" of a particular character and nature.
The problem of evil is relevant to all ontologies, including traditional theism.

Regarding what John says in what you quoted : God (or the Absolute) is not some Earthly thing that measures quantities and qualities of good/ evil ; this because God/the Absolute, unlike man, is not concerned with measuring. Measuring is something men do because we sort of have to. As for ethics If we keep our souls facing towards quality rather than quantity we will be a little closer to God/the Absolute
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Immanuel Can
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Re: God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

Post by Immanuel Can »

Belinda wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:13 pm The problem of evil is relevant to all ontologies, including traditional theism.
Of course. It's relevant to every worldview, secular, religion or whatever. But there are answers, of course.
God/the Absolute, unlike man, is not concerned with measuring.
Well, the Christian God certainly is. He's a God of ultimate justice; that means He "measures" everything.

Have you got something against justice? Or would you expect God to be just?
Belinda
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Re: God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

Post by Belinda »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:34 pm
Belinda wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:13 pm The problem of evil is relevant to all ontologies, including traditional theism.
Of course. It's relevant to every worldview, secular, religion or whatever. But there are answers, of course.
God/the Absolute, unlike man, is not concerned with measuring.
Well, the Christian God certainly is. He's a God of ultimate justice; that means He "measures" everything.

Have you got something against justice? Or would you expect God to be just?
Justice, unlike Truth, Goodness, and Beauty, does not transcend human descriptions and explanations. Moral philosophy(ethics)is largely about justice.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

Post by Immanuel Can »

Belinda wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:37 pm Justice, unlike Truth, Goodness, and Beauty, does not transcend human descriptions and explanations.
They had better. Human descriptions and explanations are pretty limited.
Moral philosophy(ethics)is largely about justice.
Well, no, not quite. Justice is one of various topics with which moral philosophy deals. It's important, but it's not fair to say it's the biggest topic in Ethics. Maybe you could make that case for "the good."
Belinda
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Re: God as an Impersonal Force is a Contradiction

Post by Belinda »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:43 pm
Belinda wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:37 pm Justice, unlike Truth, Goodness, and Beauty, does not transcend human descriptions and explanations.
They had better. Human descriptions and explanations are pretty limited.
Moral philosophy(ethics)is largely about justice.
Well, no, not quite. Justice is one of various topics with which moral philosophy deals. It's important, but it's not fair to say it's the biggest topic in Ethics. Maybe you could make that case for "the good."
Philosophers' personas are rational and that's fine! Inner persons are to greater or lesser degree reflected in personas, and it is the inner person who longs for quality that faces towards the transcendental virtues that are impossible for even the cleverest philosophers to articulate. Justice, on the other hand , is competently addressed by philosophers.
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