Buddhism and no-self

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bahman
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Buddhism and no-self

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How the personal experience is explained when there is no self?
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Dontaskme
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Re: Buddhism and no-self

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bahman wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:22 pm How the personal experience is explained when there is no self?
The 'personal experience', is the sense of there being an 'individual self', called ego.
Ego lives purely for distraction away from it's basic fundamental not-knowing empty presence.

The sense of 'self or no-self' exist in the exact same instant of happenstance which is a juxtaposition of truth and reality, versus deception and lies, known as and through the mental maze of wordplay and appearances. . all appearing as conscious brain activity, of which there is absolutely nothing known to exist out side of that arena.

There is not even an inside or an outside to the brains functioning activity, as both inside, and outside world is a concept of braining happening simultaneously as one unitary function.
You are literally living your brain both as knowing it to be on the inside of your head and as and through the outside external world in the same exact instant. There is no division there except as imagined conceptual distinction where there is none in reality.

In reality, knowledge of 'self or no-self' is but a dream dreamt by no one.. the dream world of self is the effect of a functioning conscious brain attaching itself to distractions in it's need for recognition and autonomy, all born from reflexive responses to pure sensation and impulses...which are never seen, only known conceptually by the believing brain.

Reality has no requirement or need to fill what is essentially the pure emptiness of presence.

In reality, no brain ever created itself. Life, or the sense of being, is a total mystery even to itself, and this non-creation makes no distinction between what is real and what is not real, as both concepts are one and the same reality within knowledge which can only point back to the emptiness of which it has appeared, life and death, self and no-self are the same phenomena, albeit differing in appearance, that's all.



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Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Buddhism and no-self

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

bahman wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:22 pm How the personal experience is explained when there is no self?
"I think therefore I AM" Descartes.

Buddhism do not deny the 'I-THINK' which is the empirical self one is conscious of, feel, sense, and see in the mirror. In this sense one can have personal experiences of the empirical self that will eventually disappear upon physical death.

However, Buddhism deny there is an "I-AM" the self of persisting permanent substance within which for theists, can survive physical death as the soul that can go to heaven.
This is the ultimate part that you insist can relate to empirical emergent consciousness. It is delusional to insist such a permanent self exists.
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Re: Buddhism and no-self

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Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 12:24 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:22 pm How the personal experience is explained when there is no self?
...Buddhism deny there is an "I-AM" the self of persisting permanent substance within which for theists, can survive physical death as the soul that can go to heaven....

...It is delusional to insist such a permanent self exists.
Yet, according to Wiki...
Wiki wrote: In the 40-plus years of his life after enlightenment, the Buddha Shakayamuni is said to have recounted almost 554 past life stories, (called Jataka tales) of his prior existences.
So how you can square that with the "no permanent self" nonsense, is just plain silly.

The bottom line is that the self-aware entity that went by the name of Siddhartha Gautama (The Buddha) approximately 2600 years ago is either still alive - right now - in some higher (transcendent) context of reality,...

...or...

...he has blinked-out of existence forever.

If the latter, then Buddhism is nothing more than a nihilistic philosophy that implies that life holds no ultimate and eternal purpose for us as individuals.

The amazing irony of the story is that as long as one fails to reach Buddhahood (enlightenment), one will continue to exist for a very long time and experience a vast number of lives on this planet.

Whereas, on the other hand, once Buddhahood (enlightenment/nirvana/moksha) is achieved, then, apparently, you're a goner, and will never experience the wonder and beauty of life ever again.
_______
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Re: Buddhism and no-self

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bahman wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:22 pm How the personal experience is explained when there is no self?
Every human body experiences things and every human body experiences different things. So, it could be said, every human body is an individual one, or, in other words, a personal one.

What each and every human body experiences is therefore a personal experience.

These personal experiences become thoughts.

When there is a thought like for example, "I am a doctor", then this is just an illusion or a delusion. There is NO 'self', which is actually this. There is NO 'I' which is ALWAYS "a doctor". There is, however, a human body who sometimes acts or behaves in a way, like "a doctor" does.

The saying, "I am a doctor" is, literally, just the thoughts within a human body thinking 'it' is a self.

Thee actual Truth however is there are just some human bodies, which have thoughts within, with some of those bodies thinking, and some even believing, that they are actually 'personal selves'.

Of course EVERY human body is an individual one and so in a sense is a 'personal one', but physical bodies are not 'selfs', nor 'persons'. If bodies were, then bodies with less limbs than other bodies would be "less of a person", which obviously they are not, or larger bodies would be 'bigger selfs', which they obviously are not, or more healthy bodies would be 'better selfs', which obviously they are not.

Where the misconception of 'self' arises from is from the human body's ability, through its five senses, to experience the environment [the world] around it. From a body's parents, and other adults, each body experiences, and thus learns/thinks, it is a 'self'. Again, of course, a body is an individual body or a personal one but it is not a person nor personal self.

Through bodies 'personal experiences' thoughts are gained, and it is 'thought' alone where there is a perception or actually a misconception of 'self'.

Although there is no actual (little) self other than thought or 'thinking' itself. There is a Real or True (big) Self. This Self arises from and through 'knowing' and not 'thinking', itself.

Knowing is VERY DIFFERENT than what thinking is.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Buddhism and no-self

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

seeds wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:38 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 12:24 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:22 pm How the personal experience is explained when there is no self?
...Buddhism deny there is an "I-AM" the self of persisting permanent substance within which for theists, can survive physical death as the soul that can go to heaven....

...It is delusional to insist such a permanent self exists.
Yet, according to Wiki...
Wiki wrote: In the 40-plus years of his life after enlightenment, the Buddha Shakayamuni is said to have recounted almost 554 past life stories, (called Jataka tales) of his prior existences.
So how you can square that with the "no permanent self" nonsense, is just plain silly.

The bottom line is that the self-aware entity that went by the name of Siddhartha Gautama (The Buddha) approximately 2600 years ago is either still alive - right now - in some higher (transcendent) context of reality,...

...or...

...he has blinked-out of existence forever.

If the latter, then Buddhism is nothing more than a nihilistic philosophy that implies that life holds no ultimate and eternal purpose for us as individuals.

The amazing irony of the story is that as long as one fails to reach Buddhahood (enlightenment), one will continue to exist for a very long time and experience a vast number of lives on this planet.

Whereas, on the other hand, once Buddhahood (enlightenment/nirvana/moksha) is achieved, then, apparently, you're a goner, and will never experience the wonder and beauty of life ever again.
_______
Note, one of the core principles of Buddhism-proper is 'anatta';
  • In Buddhism, the term anattā (Pali) or anātman (Sanskrit) refers to the doctrine of "non-self" – that no unchanging, permanent self or essence can be found in any phenomenon.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatt%C4%81
It is true, the Buddha spoke about past lives as mentioned in some of the Theravada Sutra, but only in a certain context relevant to some specific conditions, but the core principle is NEVER overridden at all.

Note the following comment;
  • Each story functions as a teaching about selflessness, compassion, determination, wisdom, or some other virtue that the Buddha-to-be perfected on the path to enlightenment.
In some schools of the Pure Land Buddhism, believers are even promised heaven like that of Christianity.

The point is one must understand the wide range of Buddhist texts within Buddhism-proper thoroughly and that the core principles will always prevail, e.g. anatta is fundamental despite the talk of other selves.
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Re: Buddhism and no-self

Post by bahman »

Dontaskme wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:27 am
bahman wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:22 pm How the personal experience is explained when there is no self?
The 'personal experience', is the sense of there being an 'individual self', called ego.
Ego lives purely for distraction away from it's basic fundamental not-knowing empty presence.
There is no such a thing as empty presence.
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Re: Buddhism and no-self

Post by bahman »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 12:24 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:22 pm How the personal experience is explained when there is no self?
"I think therefore I AM" Descartes.

Buddhism do not deny the 'I-THINK' which is the empirical self one is conscious of, feel, sense, and see in the mirror. In this sense one can have personal experiences of the empirical self that will eventually disappear upon physical death.

However, Buddhism deny there is an "I-AM" the self of persisting permanent substance within which for theists, can survive physical death as the soul that can go to heaven.
This is the ultimate part that you insist can relate to empirical emergent consciousness. It is delusional to insist such a permanent self exists.
How do they prove that there is no self? Experience without no self is possible but a reality that is coherent without a self is impossible.
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Re: Buddhism and no-self

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 1:31 am
bahman wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:22 pm How the personal experience is explained when there is no self?
Every human body experiences things and every human body experiences different things. So, it could be said, every human body is an individual one, or, in other words, a personal one.

What each and every human body experiences is therefore a personal experience.

These personal experiences become thoughts.

When there is a thought like for example, "I am a doctor", then this is just an illusion or a delusion. There is NO 'self', which is actually this. There is NO 'I' which is ALWAYS "a doctor". There is, however, a human body who sometimes acts or behaves in a way, like "a doctor" does.

The saying, "I am a doctor" is, literally, just the thoughts within a human body thinking 'it' is a self.

Thee actual Truth however is there are just some human bodies, which have thoughts within, with some of those bodies thinking, and some even believing, that they are actually 'personal selves'.

Of course EVERY human body is an individual one and so in a sense is a 'personal one', but physical bodies are not 'selfs', nor 'persons'. If bodies were, then bodies with less limbs than other bodies would be "less of a person", which obviously they are not, or larger bodies would be 'bigger selfs', which they obviously are not, or more healthy bodies would be 'better selfs', which obviously they are not.

Where the misconception of 'self' arises from is from the human body's ability, through its five senses, to experience the environment [the world] around it. From a body's parents, and other adults, each body experiences, and thus learns/thinks, it is a 'self'. Again, of course, a body is an individual body or a personal one but it is not a person nor personal self.

Through bodies 'personal experiences' thoughts are gained, and it is 'thought' alone where there is a perception or actually a misconception of 'self'.

Although there is no actual (little) self other than thought or 'thinking' itself. There is a Real or True (big) Self. This Self arises from and through 'knowing' and not 'thinking', itself.

Knowing is VERY DIFFERENT than what thinking is.
So the brain causes experience? How?
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Re: Buddhism and no-self

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 10:52 am
Age wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 1:31 am
bahman wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:22 pm How the personal experience is explained when there is no self?
Every human body experiences things and every human body experiences different things. So, it could be said, every human body is an individual one, or, in other words, a personal one.

What each and every human body experiences is therefore a personal experience.

These personal experiences become thoughts.

When there is a thought like for example, "I am a doctor", then this is just an illusion or a delusion. There is NO 'self', which is actually this. There is NO 'I' which is ALWAYS "a doctor". There is, however, a human body who sometimes acts or behaves in a way, like "a doctor" does.

The saying, "I am a doctor" is, literally, just the thoughts within a human body thinking 'it' is a self.

Thee actual Truth however is there are just some human bodies, which have thoughts within, with some of those bodies thinking, and some even believing, that they are actually 'personal selves'.

Of course EVERY human body is an individual one and so in a sense is a 'personal one', but physical bodies are not 'selfs', nor 'persons'. If bodies were, then bodies with less limbs than other bodies would be "less of a person", which obviously they are not, or larger bodies would be 'bigger selfs', which they obviously are not, or more healthy bodies would be 'better selfs', which obviously they are not.

Where the misconception of 'self' arises from is from the human body's ability, through its five senses, to experience the environment [the world] around it. From a body's parents, and other adults, each body experiences, and thus learns/thinks, it is a 'self'. Again, of course, a body is an individual body or a personal one but it is not a person nor personal self.

Through bodies 'personal experiences' thoughts are gained, and it is 'thought' alone where there is a perception or actually a misconception of 'self'.

Although there is no actual (little) self other than thought or 'thinking' itself. There is a Real or True (big) Self. This Self arises from and through 'knowing' and not 'thinking', itself.

Knowing is VERY DIFFERENT than what thinking is.
So the brain causes experience? How?
What?

The brain does NOT 'cause' experiences.

The body experiences the environment around it with the five senses of sight, smell, taste, touch, and hearing.
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Re: Buddhism and no-self

Post by Dontaskme »

bahman wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 10:45 am
Dontaskme wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:27 am
bahman wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:22 pm How the personal experience is explained when there is no self?
The 'personal experience', is the sense of there being an 'individual self', called ego.
Ego lives purely for distraction away from it's basic fundamental not-knowing empty presence.
There is no such a thing as empty presence.
There is no such thing as Buddhism or and no self.
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Re: Buddhism and no-self

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 11:16 am
bahman wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 10:52 am
Age wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 1:31 am

Every human body experiences things and every human body experiences different things. So, it could be said, every human body is an individual one, or, in other words, a personal one.

What each and every human body experiences is therefore a personal experience.

These personal experiences become thoughts.

When there is a thought like for example, "I am a doctor", then this is just an illusion or a delusion. There is NO 'self', which is actually this. There is NO 'I' which is ALWAYS "a doctor". There is, however, a human body who sometimes acts or behaves in a way, like "a doctor" does.

The saying, "I am a doctor" is, literally, just the thoughts within a human body thinking 'it' is a self.

Thee actual Truth however is there are just some human bodies, which have thoughts within, with some of those bodies thinking, and some even believing, that they are actually 'personal selves'.

Of course EVERY human body is an individual one and so in a sense is a 'personal one', but physical bodies are not 'selfs', nor 'persons'. If bodies were, then bodies with less limbs than other bodies would be "less of a person", which obviously they are not, or larger bodies would be 'bigger selfs', which they obviously are not, or more healthy bodies would be 'better selfs', which obviously they are not.

Where the misconception of 'self' arises from is from the human body's ability, through its five senses, to experience the environment [the world] around it. From a body's parents, and other adults, each body experiences, and thus learns/thinks, it is a 'self'. Again, of course, a body is an individual body or a personal one but it is not a person nor personal self.

Through bodies 'personal experiences' thoughts are gained, and it is 'thought' alone where there is a perception or actually a misconception of 'self'.

Although there is no actual (little) self other than thought or 'thinking' itself. There is a Real or True (big) Self. This Self arises from and through 'knowing' and not 'thinking', itself.

Knowing is VERY DIFFERENT than what thinking is.
So the brain causes experience? How?
What?

The brain does NOT 'cause' experiences.

The body experiences the environment around it with the five senses of sight, smell, taste, touch, and hearing.
The body only sends the signals to the brain. Therefore, the body itself does not experience anything.
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Re: Buddhism and no-self

Post by bahman »

Dontaskme wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 1:00 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 10:45 am
Dontaskme wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:27 am

The 'personal experience', is the sense of there being an 'individual self', called ego.
Ego lives purely for distraction away from it's basic fundamental not-knowing empty presence.
There is no such a thing as empty presence.
There is no such thing as Buddhism or and no self.
Of course, there is Buddhism as a system of belief.
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Re: Buddhism and no-self

Post by Dontaskme »

bahman wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 2:41 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 1:00 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 10:45 am
There is no such a thing as empty presence.
There is no such thing as Buddhism or and no self.
Of course, there is Buddhism as a system of belief.
There are many beliefs.

What about the belief there is a self?

Where does the belief in personal experience come from?

Is it a byproduct of the brain?…is it a programme running in the brain as being a byproduct of the environment?

What is the personal experience exactly?
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Re: Buddhism and no-self

Post by bahman »

Dontaskme wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 3:04 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 2:41 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 1:00 pm

There is no such thing as Buddhism or and no self.
Of course, there is Buddhism as a system of belief.
There are many beliefs.

What about the belief there is a self?
The problem is resolved if there is a self that experiences.
Dontaskme wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 3:04 pm Where does the belief in personal experience come from?
I have no idea when and where the belief comes from.
Dontaskme wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 3:04 pm Is it a byproduct of the brain?…is it a programme running in the brain as being a byproduct of the environment?
I think the brain create Qualia which then Qualia can be experienced by the mind.
Dontaskme wrote: Sat Sep 11, 2021 3:04 pm What is the personal experience exactly?
The state of being aware.
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