Imperefct God

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22140
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Imperefct God

Post by Immanuel Can »

Belinda wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:21 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:28 pm
Lacewing wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:22 pm "God says otherwise", you are claiming to be in a position of knowing such a thing that you cannot know...
Why not? If there's a Supreme Being, why would you doubt He is capable of communicating, a thing ordinary people do every day? :shock:
Because He has not used explicit English, or any modern vernacular.
Hardly a problem. The entire New Testament is written in Koine Greek, which was the common language of the civilized world at that time. Modern people have unparallelled access to that language. It's very translatable, and in fact, you can find excellent aids to doing so yourself online, if you wish.

Here you go: https://biblehub.com/
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22140
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Imperefct God

Post by Immanuel Can »

Dontaskme wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:59 am Why do you believe ...
I was speaking to B. I've no interest in the polemics and drama, DAM. I'm not bothering to engage it.
jayjacobus
Posts: 1273
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:45 pm

Re: Imperefct God

Post by jayjacobus »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:30 pm
Belinda wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:21 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:28 pm
Why not? If there's a Supreme Being, why would you doubt He is capable of communicating, a thing ordinary people do every day? :shock:
Because He has not used explicit English, or any modern vernacular.
Hardly a problem. The entire New Testament is written in Koine Greek, which was the common language of the civilized world at that time. Modern people have unparallelled access to that language. It's very translatable, and in fact, you can find excellent aids to doing so yourself online, if you wish.

Here you go: https://biblehub.com/
Not everything in the Bible is true.

Not everything in the Bible is false.

There is wheat and chaff in the Bible and the reader should decide for himself what is pertinent.

If miracles don't happen today, why are Biblical miracles important today?
User avatar
Lacewing
Posts: 6604
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:25 am

Re: Imperefct God

Post by Lacewing »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:22 pm I think Christianity -- the kind Jesus Christ actually taught
Something else you claim to know.
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:22 pm pseudo-Christianity the world is
So how much of Christianity is the product of man?

Do you imagine yourself to be of such divine insight that you 'only speak of that which is the truest Christianity taught by Jesus', and that is why you can claim that you know what 'God' says?

And you continually posture like this to all of these other souls, as if they are not divine?

Maybe you're limited by a storybook and don't really know how broad and diverse divine might be.
User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 16940
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: Imperefct God

Post by Dontaskme »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:34 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:59 am Why do you believe ...
I was speaking to B. I've no interest in the polemics and drama, DAM. I'm not bothering to engage it.
You're quite a rude boy aren't you.

You do not want to bother engaging with what you see as an attack. And yet to me, my response was simply an objective response to some weird arbitrary self-indulgent belief you cling to like your life depended on it.

It doesn't seem to bother you to call me out as an attacker and a drama creator to boot, though. Just as long as you make that clear, your good aren't you. . how very noble and honerable of you, to call me out for doing the same thing you do.

Your basically calling me an attacker, even though pretenders like you deserve all the Ad hominems they get. You should be proud to recieve them, not reject them, if you are absolutely certain about your religious claims, then you have absolutely no argument with other peoples shortcomings, you'd already know truth and you'd already be willing to forgive other peoples attacks for you would already know that other people that are not you, ''know not'' what they say or do...but like all egos alike, you have to defend what you say to save your own face, just in case you might just be proved wrong. Which you would be shamed to admit to yourself, so your sole job is to shame others instead, before they shame you, yep, that's a very noble and humble attribute you have there, IC.


.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22140
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Imperefct God

Post by Immanuel Can »

jayjacobus wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:10 pmThere is wheat and chaff in the Bible and the reader should decide for himself what is pertinent.
Okay, let's go with that hypothesis, for the moment.

If that were true, then what insight, axiom, principle or hermeneutic is the thing you use to decide that a part is wheat and another chaff? How do you actually do it?

I know you say above "decide for yourself." But I'm asking HOW one "decides for oneself": what's the actual mechanics of doing it? Is it a kind of intuition? Is it some sort of systematic deduction? Is it a view of historiography? What's the tool that you use to separate the alleged wheat and chaff?

Imagine God handing you a book, and saying, "Look at this: half of it is true, and half of it is false. See you at the Judgment." Without a hermeneutical principle that would enable you to separate the true from the false, what could you do?
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22140
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Imperefct God

Post by Immanuel Can »

Dontaskme wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:22 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:34 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:59 am Why do you believe ...
I was speaking to B. I've no interest in the polemics and drama, DAM. I'm not bothering to engage it.
You're quite a rude boy aren't you.
I've said nothing rude. Nothing above is personal. I feel no ire, and I have no malice toward you.

I've just told you the truth: I have no time to invest in mere blandishments and drama. And a while ago, to Henry and I, you admitted that that is what you love to do. And you have a right to do it. And I have a right to ignore it.

That's the truth.

That's as polite as it gets.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22140
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Imperefct God

Post by Immanuel Can »

Lacewing wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:15 pm So how much of Christianity is the product of man?
Unfortunately, the majority of what, today, gets passed off under the name "Christianity."
Do you imagine yourself to be of such divine insight...
The Word of God tells me what true Christianity is. The standards do not come from me, but from thence. And, in fact, you are capable of reading the same passages and seeing the same things.

For example, can you explain to me how the teaching of the Carpenter of Galilee can be interpreted as advocating clerisy, or graft, or pederasty, or legalism, or racism, or any of the other things man has tried so hard to tack on?

I think we can both read the words and see the truth of that. No special "insight" needed.
User avatar
Lacewing
Posts: 6604
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:25 am

Re: Imperefct God

Post by Lacewing »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:05 pm The Word of God tells me what true Christianity is.
People interpret words and meanings in many ways, yes? So what, then, would definitively be the 'true word' passed down by many hands/minds -- and what would be subject to manipulation by each man?
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:05 pmThe standards do not come from me, but from thence.
So you speak only of these divine standards... no distortion or fantasy or gullibility of your own (or anyone else's) is interjected.

YOU see the truth and YOU speak the truth. Anything to the contrary of that is not true. Do you honestly not recognize how arrogant and self-serving it is for you to continually posture in such a way? Such disregard and dismissal of all else, as if you know the truth of god... which apparently so many others do not? How uniquely brilliant and glorious you must be to discern 'the obvious' that is right in front of us, which so many others don't see!

Why would any god be so limited to what's seen and spoken by any of those who claim to know by any means?
jayjacobus
Posts: 1273
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:45 pm

Re: Imperefct God

Post by jayjacobus »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:57 pm
jayjacobus wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:10 pmThere is wheat and chaff in the Bible and the reader should decide for himself what is pertinent.
Okay, let's go with that hypothesis, for the moment.

If that were true, then what insight, axiom, principle or hermeneutic is the thing you use to decide that a part is wheat and another chaff? How do you actually do it?

I know you say above "decide for yourself." But I'm asking HOW one "decides for oneself": what's the actual mechanics of doing it? Is it a kind of intuition? Is it some sort of systematic deduction? Is it a view of historiography? What's the tool that you use to separate the alleged wheat and chaff?

Imagine God handing you a book, and saying, "Look at this: half of it is true, and half of it is false. See you at the Judgment." Without a hermeneutical principle that would enable you to separate the true from the false, what could you do?
If you can't make your own decisions, give up trying.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22140
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Imperefct God

Post by Immanuel Can »

Lacewing wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:18 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:05 pm The Word of God tells me what true Christianity is.
People interpret words and meanings in many ways, yes?
People are often dishonest, it's true.

However, it's a prejudice of our age that we believe that the range of possible interpretations of any text is infinite. It's not. For example, "You shall not murder" is debated as to whether it includes the elderly, the infants, the handicapped and so on. And various people "interpret" differently. But not legitimately.

When God speaks, He makes Himself clear; both through speaking clearly in the first place, and by means of His Spirit. There are, of course, those who will listen to neither: but that's not a fault of the text. That's a fault of man.
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:05 pmThe standards do not come from me, but from thence.
So you speak only of these divine standards... no distortion or fantasy or gullibility of your own (or anyone else's) is interjected.
I make a much simpler claim. I claim that the One who has the right to say what a "Christian" is, is Christ. Those who agree with him are right; those who disgree with Him are wrong. It's really that straightforward.
YOU see the truth and YOU speak the truth.

Only if I agree with God.

Otherwise, any speaker is just an ordinary person, speaking with no more authority than anyone else. And I'm not claiming my own infallibility. Only God's.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22140
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Imperefct God

Post by Immanuel Can »

jayjacobus wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:30 pm If you can't make your own decisions, give up trying.
"Your own decisions"? We make them all the time.

But no decision is without its criteria. If I decide this page is white an blue, it's because of a thing called "colour," that establshes my baseline understanding of what "white" and "blue" mean. If I decide a claim is true or false, it's because I weigh it against something I think I already know. If I say "Amoebae are animals," it's only because I know, and have criteria for, what an "animal" is.

So I asked:

"...what insight, axiom, principle or hermeneutic is the thing you use to decide that a part is wheat and another chaff? How do you actually do it?"

And that's a fair question. Answering it does not imply that the judgment is not "yours": rather, it means your judgment has standards, has quality and integrity in its assessments, and is potentially right. (Lack of standards would, of course, imply the opposite.)
Belinda
Posts: 8030
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Imperefct God

Post by Belinda »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:34 pm
Belinda wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:56 pm Jesus is historical: Christ is mythical.
God says otherwise. Jesus is both Lord and Christ, historically.

As Peter says, "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christthis Jesus whom you crucified.” (Acts 2)
Peter Preaches to the Crowd

14But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
From King James Version.

Peter as a foremost disciple of Jesus was concerned with making the OT Prophets' prophecies about a messiah, come true. This is because when the prophecies seem to have come true the update to the Prophets' narrative is all the more credible. The Jesus tradition was opposed to the Jewish tradition that was more friendly with the Roman Empire.

It makes sense to take into account the political forces among which Peter and the other Disciples had to propagate their message. I do think you pay too little attention to the socio-historical situation within which these events took place. The Disciples and their audience were real people, not some alien beings among whom miracles happened.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22140
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Imperefct God

Post by Immanuel Can »

Belinda wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:26 pm I do think you pay too little attention to the socio-historical situation within which these events took place.
I don't think I do pay too little attention to it. I attend to it carefully. In fact, my point about the listeners knowing about the Resurrection and about Peter eventually giving his life for what he knew to be the truth is inexplicable except in terms of the historical reality of the risen Christ.

Why would one die for the sake of something one knew, or even suspected, to be a fabrication? And why didn't the Jewish listeners instantly refute the Resurrection, if they could have?

Those are socio-historical questions, surely.
User avatar
Greatest I am
Posts: 2964
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 5:09 pm

Re: Imperefct God

Post by Greatest I am »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:15 pm
Belinda wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:26 pm I do think you pay too little attention to the socio-historical situation within which these events took place.
I don't think I do pay too little attention to it. I attend to it carefully. In fact, my point about the listeners knowing about the Resurrection and about Peter eventually giving his life for what he knew to be the truth is inexplicable except in terms of the historical reality of the risen Christ.

Why would one die for the sake of something one knew, or even suspected, to be a fabrication? And why didn't the Jewish listeners instantly refute the Resurrection, if they could have?

Those are socio-historical questions, surely.
They mostly did. Jews for Jesus cannot be, except for Jews who ignored their own laws and good morals.

Few of the old Jews were as immoral as Christians.

Check the Jewish law.

On Jesus dying for Christians. Try to think in a moral way.

It takes quite an inflated ego to think a god would actually die for us, after condemning us unjustly in the first place.

Christians have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil they make Jesus to keep their feel good get out of hell free card.

It is a lie, first and foremost, because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.

Christians also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

There is no way that Christians would teach their children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments and here you are promoting doing just that.

Jesus is just a smidge less immoral than his demiurge genocidal father, and here you are trying to put him as low in moral fiber as Yahweh. Tsk tsk.

Regards
DL
Post Reply