Imperefct God

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Belinda
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Re: Imperefct God

Post by Belinda »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:30 pm
Belinda wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:21 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:28 pm
Why not? If there's a Supreme Being, why would you doubt He is capable of communicating, a thing ordinary people do every day? :shock:
Because He has not used explicit English, or any modern vernacular.
Hardly a problem. The entire New Testament is written in Koine Greek, which was the common language of the civilized world at that time. Modern people have unparallelled access to that language. It's very translatable, and in fact, you can find excellent aids to doing so yourself online, if you wish.

Here you go: https://biblehub.com/
Jesus popularised the language and morality of the OT, by means of the famous parables. As I have said, it is unfortunate that the literal import of these is irrelevant today although the metaphorical import is as good as when and where the author told the stories.

It is asking too much of lay people to study ancient Greek, or even Biblical hermeneutics.
Belinda
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Re: Imperefct God

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Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:15 pm
Belinda wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:26 pm I do think you pay too little attention to the socio-historical situation within which these events took place.
I don't think I do pay too little attention to it. I attend to it carefully. In fact, my point about the listeners knowing about the Resurrection and about Peter eventually giving his life for what he knew to be the truth is inexplicable except in terms of the historical reality of the risen Christ.

Why would one die for the sake of something one knew, or even suspected, to be a fabrication? And why didn't the Jewish listeners instantly refute the Resurrection, if they could have?

Those are socio-historical questions, surely.

Peter did not die for any fabrication . He was martyred by the Romans for his beliefs and his influence that Rome considered to be against its interests. The Jesus faction did indeed believe the prophecies of the OT prophets, and the Jesus faction made political capital from underlining these well regarded prophecies.
There were penalties for following the Jesus school. We know from more recent military occupations it is safer to keep your head below the parapet and not show any interest in freedom fighters or insurgent movements such as was the Jesus faction.


You seem to disregard real political history. Palestine and Palestinians around the times of Jesus were not extraordinarily psychic.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Imperefct God

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Dontaskme wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:05 am You are here on this forum...
Again: not impressed, not bothering. Sorry.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Imperefct God

Post by Immanuel Can »

Belinda wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:49 am Jesus popularised the language and morality of the OT...
Hardly. The Torah was intensely studied by Jewish scholars long before the time of Christ. But He did confirm and extend those teachings, it's true. And their popularity among Gentiles comes from that source.
It is asking too much of lay people to study ancient Greek, or even Biblical hermeneutics.
No, it's not, actually. It's actually quite reasonable to anticipate that people who make assertions about the readability of Koine Greek should know what they're talking about, is it not? Would we not expect the same of anyone? And today, we are without excuse, since such excellent tools for discerning the truth of the matter are available online.

As for Biblical hermeneutics, ever person has a hemeneutic. But there are people who understand their hermeneutic, and those who have no clue they even have one. It's not unreasonable to ask anyone by what means they interpret what they are reading. That's hermeneutics.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Imperefct God

Post by Dontaskme »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:11 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:05 am You are here on this forum...
Again: not impressed, not bothering. Sorry.
There's no need to bother, you are the bothered, still bothering to inform me that your not bothered sounds a lot like bothred to me.

Just keep tripping on your addictive trip Can, you love it.

Hey, you could be a really lovely person, who knows, but it's your beliefs can, they're cringe worthy of the highest degree, and deserve the Ad Hominen award for pure excellence. That's your only true calling, to recognise your own bullshit as yours truly, and not belonging to the universe itself. :D

When you put your beliefs out there above the bottom line, don't be surprised or bothered when the hammer comes down to flatten the flat. Holy wack-a mole, my moles better than yours..so there, I know I am but what am I ? :lol:
Belinda
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Re: Imperefct God

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Jesus popularised the language and morality of the OT...
Hardly. The Torah was intensely studied by Jewish scholars long before the time of Christ. But He did confirm and extend those teachings, it's true. And their popularity among Gentiles comes from that source.
Actually, Jesus elucidated the Prophets' teachings in a way , not least of which is his life style, that still resonates two thousand years after he died.


It is asking too much of lay people to study ancient Greek, or even Biblical hermeneutics.
No, it's not, actually. It's actually quite reasonable to anticipate that people who make assertions about the readability of Koine Greek should know what they're talking about, is it not? Would we not expect the same of anyone? And today, we are without excuse, since such excellent tools for discerning the truth of the matter are available online.
Well I don't understand ancient Greek, and I first was taught at secondary school about deliberate and calculated matching of the OT prophecies with the life , teachings, and death of Jesus.The Triumphal Entry Into Jerusalem is a glaringly obvious example of deliberately bringing OT prophecy to fruition.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Imperefct God

Post by Immanuel Can »

Belinda wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:49 pm Well I don't understand ancient Greek,
Okay, that's fine. But then, why make statements about what can and cannot be known from it? In matters we admit we don't understand, aren't we better to ask than assert?

The truth is that it's not nearly so difficult as you imply. And honestly, the Bible is the most studied, annotated, commented-on book in human history -- by orders of magnitude. So really, there's so much available today that anybody with a reasonable grasp of English and a good concordance can unpack many of the subtleties of translation -- if not personally, then through the work of experts. Nowadays, it's not really hard at all, I submit.
The Triumphal Entry Into Jerusalem is a glaringly obvious example of deliberately bringing OT prophecy to fruition.
Absolutely. So was the Feeding of the 5,000, the Walking On the Water, and, for that matter, the Death and Resurrection of Messiah.

All of those were foreseen by Torah; and you've really got to ask yourself how ancient scribes and prophets managed to get all that right, given that many of them wrote as long as several centuries (Isaiah, for example) or a millenium and a half (in the case of Moses) before Jesus Christ was even born.

You can make an elaborate case that somehow, an untrained Carpenter from Galilee had such meticulous knowledge of Torah that he hit all the prophecies dead on, carefully "bringing each one to fruition," including, faking a whole bunch of miracles, convincing a whole bunch of observers through some set of hitherto unknown magic tricks, and rather irrationally, getting himself killed at the exact time specified by the prophet Daniel, and somehow faking his own Resurrection and subsequent appearances, merely in order to pose as the Torah's fulfillment.

Or you can consider the much more obvious explanation: that He was who He said He was.
Belinda
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Re: Imperefct God

Post by Belinda »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:09 pm
Belinda wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:49 pm Well I don't understand ancient Greek,
Okay, that's fine. But then, why make statements about what can and cannot be known from it? In matters we admit we don't understand, aren't we better to ask than assert?

The truth is that it's not nearly so difficult as you imply. And honestly, the Bible is the most studied, annotated, commented-on book in human history -- by orders of magnitude. So really, there's so much available today that anybody with a reasonable grasp of English and a good concordance can unpack many of the subtleties of translation -- if not personally, then through the work of experts. Nowadays, it's not really hard at all, I submit.
The Triumphal Entry Into Jerusalem is a glaringly obvious example of deliberately bringing OT prophecy to fruition.
Absolutely. So was the Feeding of the 5,000, the Walking On the Water, and, for that matter, the Death and Resurrection of Messiah.

All of those were foreseen by Torah; and you've really got to ask yourself how ancient scribes and prophets managed to get all that right, given that many of them wrote as long as several centuries (Isaiah, for example) or a millenium and a half (in the case of Moses) before Jesus Christ was even born.

You can make an elaborate case that somehow, an untrained Carpenter from Galilee had such meticulous knowledge of Torah that he hit all the prophecies dead on, carefully "bringing each one to fruition," including, faking a whole bunch of miracles, convincing a whole bunch of observers through some set of hitherto unknown magic tricks, and rather irrationally, getting himself killed at the exact time specified by the prophet Daniel, and somehow faking his own Resurrection and subsequent appearances, merely in order to pose as the Torah's fulfillment.

Or you can consider the much more obvious explanation: that He was who He said He was.
I respect the OT prophets and seers. But you don't get what I am saying which is that events like the Triumphal Entry Into Jerusalem were staged events, as if the prophecies were come true.

The Bible is not unadulterated authorship but is much edited including what has been selected as true 'history' by religious powers that be. NB see how Islamic scholars have always and still do insist on measures to ensure the Koran is pure and unadulterated.The Koran is not literature like the Bible and I compare the two only to make the point that the Koran is a better bet for literal interpretation than is the Bible.

It takes more than knowing ancient Greek to understand the currents of belief in Palestine two thousand years ago.One thing we can be sure enough about----------- people in Palestine at that time were not incredibly gifted with paranormal capability.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Imperefct God

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Belinda wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:26 pm ...you don't get what I am saying which is that events like the Triumphal Entry Into Jerusalem were staged events, as if the prophecies were come true.
Oh, I got that much, for sure. I just think that as a explanation, it fails. As I said,

"You can make an elaborate case that somehow, an untrained Carpenter from Galilee had such meticulous knowledge of Torah that he hit all the prophecies dead on, carefully "bringing each one to fruition," including, faking a whole bunch of miracles, convincing a whole bunch of observers through some set of hitherto unknown magic tricks, and rather irrationally, getting himself killed at the exact time specified by the prophet Daniel, and somehow faking his own Resurrection and subsequent appearances, merely in order to pose as the Torah's fulfillment."


Yes, you can try to "make that case." It's just not plausible. Or, as I also said, "you can consider the much more obvious explanation: that He was who He said He was."
The Bible is not unadulterated authorship but is much edited including what has been selected as true 'history' by religious powers that be.
Like what?
...the Koran is a better bet for literal interpretation than is the Bible....
:lol: I'm sorry, B...have you read the Koran? Really? I have. And I can't tell you how wildly wrong that is. But you could actually read the darn thing for yourself, and you really would know for sure.
Belinda
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Re: Imperefct God

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Immanuel Can wrote:


The Triumphal Entry Into Jerusalem is a glaringly obvious example of deliberately bringing OT prophecy to fruition.
You can make an elaborate case that somehow, an untrained Carpenter from Galilee had such meticulous knowledge of Torah that he hit all the prophecies dead on, carefully "bringing each one to fruition," including, faking a whole bunch of miracles, convincing a whole bunch of observers through some set of hitherto unknown magic tricks, and rather irrationally, getting himself killed at the exact time specified by the prophet Daniel, and somehow faking his own Resurrection and subsequent appearances, merely in order to pose as the Torah's fulfillment.

Or you can consider the much more obvious explanation: that He was who He said He was.
The miracles were not faked they were huge distortions of what happened. As for Jesus' killing by the Romans, the Palestinian occupation was exrtraordinarily brutal even for the Romans who crucified many Jews.

I respect the OT prophets and seers. But you don't get what I am saying which is that events like the Triumphal Entry Into Jerusalem were staged events, as if the prophecies were come true.
The Bible is not unadulterated authorship but is much edited including what has been selected as true 'history' by religious powers that be. NB see how Islamic scholars have always and still do insist on measures to ensure the Koran is pure and unadulterated.The Koran is not literature like the Bible and I compare the two only to make the point that the Koran is a better bet for literal interpretation than is the Bible.
It takes more than knowing ancient Greek to understand the currents of belief in Palestine two thousand years ago.One thing we can be sure enough about----------- people in Palestine at that time were not incredibly gifted with paranormal capability.


The Koran is conserved with religious zeal in its original written( Arabic)version. This is unlike the Bible which has been edited by bishops. You distorted what I wrote. I did not praise the content of the Koran.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Imperefct God

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Belinda wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 8:18 pm The miracles were not faked they were huge distortions of what happened.
What's your evidence for that conclusion?
As for Jesus' killing by the Romans, the Palestinian occupation was exrtraordinarily brutal even for the Romans who crucified many Jews.
They were. But it takes a special trick to get them to do it on cue, just when the prophet Daniel said they would. And you have to wonder, assuming it was calculated as you suggest, what "win" this would have given Jesus: after all, he'd be kind of dead, wouldn't he? There's not much comfort in being the ex-Messiah, so far as I can see.
The Koran is conserved with religious zeal in its original written( Arabic)version.
Actually, no.

I can see you don't know anything about the history of the Koran either. Mohammed himself, as any Muslim will happily tell you, was totally illiterate. Not only DID he not write anything; he COULDN'T. Muslims are actually proud of that fact, and they say it makes the Koran miraculous.

The Koran was assembled from bits of saying his later followers attributed to him -- scraps from various places and people, collected after his death -- all of which were gathered up, debated by his followers, and then assembled -- purely by length -- into the Koran. The sayings they found that were attributed to Mohammed but his followers decided were not his, they burned. And what's left became the Koran.

Just read it...it's brutally boring, I have to warn you. It's basically a whole book of "fortune cookie like" sayings many of which are pretty ridiculous, and some of which are downright morally awful. As books go, you'll find many that are far more elegant and vastly more wise than that book. But just read it, and you'll see.

Maybe just go to "The Chapter of Women," for a start. You can read in that how it is "appropriate" to treat one's wife. You'll like that.
uwot
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Re: Imperefct God

Post by uwot »

In the irony void between Mr Can's ears:
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:09 pmYou can make an elaborate case that somehow, an untrained Carpenter from Galilee had such meticulous knowledge of Torah that he hit all the prophecies dead on, carefully "bringing each one to fruition," including, faking a whole bunch of miracles, convincing a whole bunch of observers through some set of hitherto unknown magic tricks, and rather irrationally, getting himself killed at the exact time specified by the prophet Daniel, and somehow faking his own Resurrection and subsequent appearances, merely in order to pose as the Torah's fulfillment.

Or you can consider the much more obvious explanation: that He was who He said He was.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 8:44 pmI can see you don't know anything about the history of the Koran either. Mohammed himself, as any Muslim will happily tell you, was totally illiterate. Not only DID he not write anything; he COULDN'T. Muslims are actually proud of that fact, and they say it makes the Koran miraculous.
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Greatest I am
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Re: Imperefct God

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Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:15 am
Greatest I am wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:14 am Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.
I guess I'm not seeing your point. You'd better explain, I guess.
On Jesus dying for Christians. Try to think in a moral way.

It takes quite an inflated ego to think a god would actually die for us, after condemning us unjustly in the first place.

Christians have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil they make Jesus to keep their feel good get out of hell free card.

It is a lie, first and foremost, because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.

Christians also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

There is no way that Christians would teach their children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments and here you are promoting doing just that.

Jesus is just a smidge less immoral than his demiurge genocidal father, and here you are trying to put him as low in moral fiber as Yahweh. Tsk tsk.

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Re: Imperefct God

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Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 3:16 am
Lacewing wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:18 am your god sounds suspiciously self-serving
Since mainfestly you don't know me, and by your own confession you don't know God, I guess you're not in any position to say.
You know god?

How?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Imperefct God

Post by Immanuel Can »

Greatest I am wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:09 pm On Jesus dying for Christians. Try to think in a moral way.

It takes quite an inflated ego to think a god would actually die for us,
It would -- if we thought His doing so was provoked by us deserving it.
after condemning us unjustly in the first place.
Heh. :) Well, "unjustly," you say? That's a term you'd need to justify. It seems to me there are plenty of reasons for God not to be particularly happy with me, but maybe you're just a much, much better person than I am. But either way, "All have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God," (Rom. 3:10) So I'm going to say God's right about that,
...having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.
You've got it wrong. Nobody can escape responsibility, by any means, just as you claim. God is not righteous if He does not judge sin.

But you cannot pay for your own sins. You don't have that kind of "cash," and the price is far too dear for you to pay. It's eternal estrangement from God...have you got that kind of payment in hand?

Sin is against God. But no man can afford to pay. What is to be done? Realizing that is step 1.
There is no way that Christians would teach their children to use a scapegoat
:D Here's the irony: the term "scapegoat" actually comes from Exodus 30, from a Jewish ceremony designed to do exactly that: to bear away the sins of Israel by means of a proxy. Didn't you know?

In fact, if you look at the whole Jewish system, you'll find absolutely nothing so common as the concept of a perfect sacrifice for sins, in which the sinner is given permission to ask that his sins be forgiven through the sacrifide of another. When a human being cannot pay, a sacrifice is required.

You've quoted a few sections, but badly out of context. You've missed the forest for the trees. But if you wish to pay your own way, you can; I just don't recommend it as a choice, because you'll be paying forever.
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