Simulation or Divine Reality? - evidence of God\'God'

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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attofishpi
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Re: Simulation or Divine Reality? - evidence of God\'God'

Post by attofishpi »

RCSaunders wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 11:30 am
attofishpi wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:52 am
RCSaunders wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:47 pm
Let's make it simple. Intelligence is not a thing, not a substance or entity, it is an attribute of some living organisms. It cannot exist independently of those organisms. The organisms I know with that attribute are human beings, it is, along with volition, and rationality the nature of human consciousness called the human mind.
I agree that consciousness as we know it, is an attribute (and not physical) of the human mind - which is within, yes a biological form, but this is only a limitation of what we know about consciousness by way of what appears around us in the form of life.

So again, and worded slightly different: Do you think it plausible\possible that a conscious intelligence can exist as an attribute of a non-biological form?
No, I don't. I think consciousness is only possible to living entities (organisms).
Fine.

attofishpi wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:52 am
RCSaunders wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:47 pmThere is no such thing as a non-biological form of life. It is, in fact, a contradiction in terms. "Bio," means living, "biological," means pertaining to life. You cannot have life that does not pertain to life, and you cannot have a non-material form of life.
I never disputed that.
attofishpi wrote:
RCSaunders wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:47 pmIf you believe there can intelligence independent of an human being, fine. I'm not going to change your mind. Here's what I know about life, consciousness, and mind:

The Nature of Life


The Nature of Consciousness

The Nature of the Mind
I did have a little dabble into the 2nd link there, I don't generally like links within debates I have to admit (unless the thread I am debating within is on a topic I have little to know idea about!) - glad to see we share similar interests, have you read anything by David Chalmers, if so, do you have any opinion on his endeavour to scientifically understand consciousness?
RC:- The links were provided only if you were truly interested in my views. It is frustrating to me when others expect you to explain your views in terms of their short attention spans. One's epistemology or ontology cannot be explained in 30 words or less.
Of course I am interested in your views, you appear to have a modicum for rational debate, which unfortunately is becoming rare on this forum.
However, this thread is not about those views per se, hence my skim.


RCSaunders wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:47 pmMy views are similar Chalmers except for his dualism. I agree that consciousness is not physical but not that it is ontologically distinct from the physical, but simply another attribute of material existence and not possible independent of physical organisms. I make the same distinction about life, which he neglects.
Yes you certainly stick to you guns about what you observe via those senses.
Apparently Dark Energy/Matter exists and makes up a far greater percentage of that which we can actually observe via our senses (implications then, our senses indeed are rendering sweet F.A. of what the universe is apparently mostly comprised of.)


RCSaunders wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:47 pm
attofishpi wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:46 pm So, have you only skimmed my OP? (which was updated as per Age's questions)
Or, have you read all the detail, and viewed the imagery relating to that detail?
Yes. You do not want to know what I think of it.
Naaaw. R U going to hurt my feelings? GO 4 IT!!

I most certainly do want to know what you think about it. I expect you are going to attack or at least question my 'psyche' (which is absurd from an atheist POV since psyche relates to 'soul') - so to put it in atheist terms, you are going to challenge my perception of reality, indeed, what I have projected via the art combined with language (that you will point out are not anomalies, but if anything, at best, coincidence) - ...and that indeed, it appears I am showing psychotic links, things that are clearly IRRATIONAL.

or. R U going to surprise me!!!?

..I look forward to it. :mrgreen:
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Re: Simulation or Divine Reality? - evidence of God\'God'

Post by RCSaunders »

attofishpi wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 4:40 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 11:30 am
attofishpi wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:46 pm So, have you only skimmed my OP? (which was updated as per Age's questions)
Or, have you read all the detail, and viewed the imagery relating to that detail?
Yes. You do not want to know what I think of it.
Naaaw. R U going to hurt my feelings? GO 4 IT!!

I most certainly do want to know what you think about it. I expect you are going to attack or at least question my 'psyche' (which is absurd from an atheist POV since psyche relates to 'soul') - so to put it in atheist terms, you are going to challenge my perception of reality, indeed, what I have projected via the art combined with language (that you will point out are not anomalies, but if anything, at best, coincidence) - ...and that indeed, it appears I am showing psychotic links, things that are clearly IRRATIONAL.

or. R U going to surprise me!!!?
I'm going to disappoint you.

First, I'm not an atheist. As far as I'm concerned atheism is just another ideology, and I do not have any ideology.

Secondly, I think you believe a lot of nonsense, but I believe most people do, which is fine with me. Other people's mistaken beliefs do me no harm. One thing I do notice, though, is that most who hold beliefs that I regard as spurious always seem to need agreement from others about their beliefs. If you know you are right, you don't need anyone else's approval or agreement to be right. Almost no one agrees with me, and I don't need them to, though I could wish they did, for their sake, if I believed in wishes.
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Re: Simulation or Divine Reality? - evidence of God\'God'

Post by attofishpi »

RCSaunders wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 8:49 pm
attofishpi wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 4:40 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 11:30 am
Yes. You do not want to know what I think of it.
Naaaw. R U going to hurt my feelings? GO 4 IT!!

I most certainly do want to know what you think about it. I expect you are going to attack or at least question my 'psyche' (which is absurd from an atheist POV since psyche relates to 'soul') - so to put it in atheist terms, you are going to challenge my perception of reality, indeed, what I have projected via the art combined with language (that you will point out are not anomalies, but if anything, at best, coincidence) - ...and that indeed, it appears I am showing psychotic links, things that are clearly IRRATIONAL.

or. R U going to surprise me!!!?
I'm going to disappoint you.

First, I'm not an atheist. As far as I'm concerned atheism is just another ideology, and I do not have any ideology.

Secondly, I think you believe a lot of nonsense, but I believe most people do, which is fine with me. Other people's mistaken beliefs do me no harm. One thing I do notice, though, is that most who hold beliefs that I regard as spurious always seem to need agreement from others about their beliefs. If you know you are right, you don't need anyone else's approval or agreement to be right. Almost no one agrees with me, and I don't need them to, though I could wish they did, for their sake, if I believed in wishes.
Yes, ok. I apologise for considering you an atheist - I have to admit, earlier when you mentioned 'ideology' and I admit naturally assuming you as atheist, was going to point out the fact that it is an ideology - just didn't want to ignite that old chestnut. Although, I do consider it difficult to comprehend that anyone can have NO ideology, I gotta shoot to UNI yay! So will have a read of your link later.

As far as what I 'believe' as being a lot of nonsense, all I do which I'm sure yourself would also do, is to consider what those senses are receiving into my consciousness, analysing them, and coming to carefully considered conclusions - some of which must still remain theory, and others varying degrees of >= 95% probability as to being absolutely the truth.

You are right, I don't need anyone else's approval, and often have refrained from bothering with this subject matter on this forum. But as you stated earlier, we like to discuss ideas, and I certainly would like other peoples opinions on what I am suggesting, not necessarily their agreement.
Also, as I mentioned earlier, it's the so called 'militant atheism' that grinds my gears, since atheism is completely contradictory to what I have experienced as to the nature of reality (24yrs of analysis) - so yes, I like taking them to task and hope in the least that I can open some minds to other ways of looking at God, even religion.

I think if I was prior to 1997 - or a lot younger (I was a theist back then, I don't consider myself to merely believe anymore), If I was presented with the OP, I personally, would be convinced of the point 1 or 2 in the OP.
However, had I been a non-believer - I am not so sure - it would be wonderful to have a parallel Brian (an atheist in the year 1995 and a theist in the year 1995) and see what either (me) would think provided with access to this thread - of course - the creator of this thread in that dimension would be called, Agnosia and I'm sure she and I would get along just fine. :D

ANY THEISTS LIKE TO HAVE A CHAT\DEBATE!!!?
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Re: Simulation or Divine Reality? - evidence of God\'God'

Post by AlexW »

attofishpi wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 8:45 am What do you mean by separate "I" and "self" ? ------ the "I", the "'think" and the ""I have consciousness" - as per my statement, are not seperate to the "self" - surely you would infer, that "self", is just pure consciousness - no separation.
What I am trying to say is that there is no "I" to do any thinking or to "have consciousness" - I am saying that the separate self, what we refer to when we say "I", is just an ever changing collection of thought.
But thought cannot think or even have consciousness - it's rather the opposite: consciousness is "having I-thoughts".
But, yes, I agree with your statement that the true self "is just pure consciousness - no separation" (just don't see how your statement "I think therefore I have consciousness", could actually be interpreted like that... but hey... we all have different ways of explaining things...)
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Re: Simulation or Divine Reality? - evidence of God\'God'

Post by attofishpi »

RCSaunders wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 8:49 pm
attofishpi wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 4:40 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 11:30 am
Yes. You do not want to know what I think of it.
Naaaw. R U going to hurt my feelings? GO 4 IT!!

I most certainly do want to know what you think about it. I expect you are going to attack or at least question my 'psyche' (which is absurd from an atheist POV since psyche relates to 'soul') - so to put it in atheist terms, you are going to challenge my perception of reality, indeed, what I have projected via the art combined with language (that you will point out are not anomalies, but if anything, at best, coincidence) - ...and that indeed, it appears I am showing psychotic links, things that are clearly IRRATIONAL.

or. R U going to surprise me!!!?
I'm going to disappoint you.

First, I'm not an atheist. As far as I'm concerned atheism is just another ideology, and I do not have any ideology.

Secondly, I think you believe a lot of nonsense, but I believe most people do, which is fine with me.
Ok. Got some spare time RC.

What is nonsensical about what i 'believe'?
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Re: Simulation or Divine Reality? - evidence of God\'God'

Post by RCSaunders »

attofishpi wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 7:43 am
RCSaunders wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 8:49 pm
attofishpi wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 4:40 pm

Naaaw. R U going to hurt my feelings? GO 4 IT!!

I most certainly do want to know what you think about it. I expect you are going to attack or at least question my 'psyche' (which is absurd from an atheist POV since psyche relates to 'soul') - so to put it in atheist terms, you are going to challenge my perception of reality, indeed, what I have projected via the art combined with language (that you will point out are not anomalies, but if anything, at best, coincidence) - ...and that indeed, it appears I am showing psychotic links, things that are clearly IRRATIONAL.

or. R U going to surprise me!!!?
I'm going to disappoint you.

First, I'm not an atheist. As far as I'm concerned atheism is just another ideology, and I do not have any ideology.

Secondly, I think you believe a lot of nonsense, but I believe most people do, which is fine with me.
Ok. Got some spare time RC.

What is nonsensical about what i 'believe'?
No, I'm not interested in changing anyone else's mind or debates, thank you!
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Re: Simulation or Divine Reality? - evidence of God\'God'

Post by attofishpi »

RCSaunders wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 1:42 pm
attofishpi wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 7:43 am
RCSaunders wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 8:49 pm
I'm going to disappoint you.

First, I'm not an atheist. As far as I'm concerned atheism is just another ideology, and I do not have any ideology.

Secondly, I think you believe a lot of nonsense, but I believe most people do, which is fine with me.
Ok. Got some spare time RC.

What is nonsensical about what i 'believe'?
No, I'm not interested in changing anyone else's mind or debates, thank you!
So, you like ideas, and debating ideas (indeed, perhaps you like philosophy) - but here and now, you are backing down, not willing to debate the logic contained within YOUR consciousness against mine - indeed using the resources what our consciousness relies upon, the thing that we at least can both perceive as reality at the least for a basis for debate! ?

Care to explain Y?
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Re: Simulation or Divine Reality? - evidence of God\'God'

Post by RCSaunders »

attofishpi wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 1:51 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 1:42 pm
attofishpi wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 7:43 am

Ok. Got some spare time RC.

What is nonsensical about what i 'believe'?
No, I'm not interested in changing anyone else's mind or debates, thank you!
So, you like ideas, and debating ideas
No. Debating is for children who are just learning to think. It's like a game. Winning a debate is winning nothing of value. I have no interest in debates.
attofishpi wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 1:51 pm (indeed, perhaps you like philosophy) - but here and now, you are backing down, not willing to debate the logic contained within YOUR consciousness against mine - indeed using the resources what our consciousness relies upon, the thing that we at least can both perceive as reality at the least for a basis for debate! ?

Care to explain Y?
Backing down from what? I never challenged you to anything. Believe whatever you like, it doesn't matter to me. If I thought you were really interested in ideas, I'd be glad to explain mine, but you've made it clear what you want is debate. I'm not interested. If you have some crying need to win a debate, I declare you the winner.

Being free means I never have to explain myself to anyone. Try it. You'll be amazed at how liberating it is. If you know you're right, you will never need anyone else's agreement or approval. Needing to win debates is a sign of a lack of self-assurance.
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Re: Simulation or Divine Reality? - evidence of God\'God'

Post by attofishpi »

RCSaunders wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:13 pm
attofishpi wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 1:51 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 1:42 pm
No, I'm not interested in changing anyone else's mind or debates, thank you!
So, you like ideas, and debating ideas
No. Debating is for children who are just learning to think. It's like a game. Winning a debate is winning nothing of value. I have no interest in debates.
attofishpi wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 1:51 pm (indeed, perhaps you like philosophy) - but here and now, you are backing down, not willing to debate the logic contained within YOUR consciousness against mine - indeed using the resources what our consciousness relies upon, the thing that we at least can both perceive as reality at the least for a basis for debate! ?

Care to explain Y?
Backing down from what? I never challenged you to anything. Believe whatever you like, it doesn't matter to me. If I thought you were really interested in ideas, I'd be glad to explain mine, but you've made it clear what you want is debate. I'm not interested. If you have some crying need to win a debate, I declare you the winner.

Being free means I never have to explain myself to anyone. Try it. You'll be amazed at how liberating it is. If you know you're right, you will never need anyone else's agreement or approval. Needing to win debates is a sign of a lack of self-assurance.
May I suggest you change your Avatar to a pussy cat.

Indeed, you are making me feel sooo special...clearly you are NOT confident that I am talking NONSENSE.

as per YOU stating:- "Secondly, I think you believe a lot of nonsense"
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Re: Simulation or Divine Reality? - evidence of God\'God'

Post by RCSaunders »

attofishpi wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:21 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:13 pm
attofishpi wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 1:51 pm

So, you like ideas, and debating ideas
No. Debating is for children who are just learning to think. It's like a game. Winning a debate is winning nothing of value. I have no interest in debates.
attofishpi wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 1:51 pm (indeed, perhaps you like philosophy) - but here and now, you are backing down, not willing to debate the logic contained within YOUR consciousness against mine - indeed using the resources what our consciousness relies upon, the thing that we at least can both perceive as reality at the least for a basis for debate! ?

Care to explain Y?
Backing down from what? I never challenged you to anything. Believe whatever you like, it doesn't matter to me. If I thought you were really interested in ideas, I'd be glad to explain mine, but you've made it clear what you want is debate. I'm not interested. If you have some crying need to win a debate, I declare you the winner.

Being free means I never have to explain myself to anyone. Try it. You'll be amazed at how liberating it is. If you know you're right, you will never need anyone else's agreement or approval. Needing to win debates is a sign of a lack of self-assurance.
Indeed, you are making me feel sooo special...
I'm glad I am able to make you feel good.
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Re: Simulation or Divine Reality? - evidence of God\'God'

Post by attofishpi »

RCSaunders wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 4:19 pm
attofishpi wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:21 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:13 pm
No. Debating is for children who are just learning to think. It's like a game. Winning a debate is winning nothing of value. I have no interest in debates.

Backing down from what? I never challenged you to anything. Believe whatever you like, it doesn't matter to me. If I thought you were really interested in ideas, I'd be glad to explain mine, but you've made it clear what you want is debate. I'm not interested. If you have some crying need to win a debate, I declare you the winner.

Being free means I never have to explain myself to anyone. Try it. You'll be amazed at how liberating it is. If you know you're right, you will never need anyone else's agreement or approval. Needing to win debates is a sign of a lack of self-assurance.
Indeed, you are making me feel sooo special...
I'm glad I am able to make you feel good.
Sure, so long as you accept that you are pathetic, unable to debate after stating I am talking nonsense on a philosophy forum, you haven't the backbone to provide reason as to Y U consider my OP nonsensical.

:mrgreen:
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Re: Simulation or Divine Reality? - evidence of God\'God'

Post by attofishpi »

I ATE ALMOST THE ENTIRE TREE OF KNOW_LEDGE

....are you certain you want to be a leaf and LEAVE?

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Re: Simulation or Divine Reality? - evidence of God\'God'

Post by jayjacobus »

attofishpi wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 1:06 am
RCSaunders wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 8:49 pm
attofishpi wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 4:40 pm

Naaaw. R U going to hurt my feelings? GO 4 IT!!

I most certainly do want to know what you think about it. I expect you are going to attack or at least question my 'psyche' (which is absurd from an atheist POV since psyche relates to 'soul') - so to put it in atheist terms, you are going to challenge my perception of reality, indeed, what I have projected via the art combined with language (that you will point out are not anomalies, but if anything, at best, coincidence) - ...and that indeed, it appears I am showing psychotic links, things that are clearly IRRATIONAL.

or. R U going to surprise me!!!?
I'm going to disappoint you.

First, I'm not an atheist. As far as I'm concerned atheism is just another ideology, and I do not have any ideology.

Secondly, I think you believe a lot of nonsense, but I believe most people do, which is fine with me. Other people's mistaken beliefs do me no harm. One thing I do notice, though, is that most who hold beliefs that I regard as spurious always seem to need agreement from others about their beliefs. If you know you are right, you don't need anyone else's approval or agreement to be right. Almost no one agrees with me, and I don't need them to, though I could wish they did, for their sake, if I believed in wishes.
Yes, ok. I apologise for considering you an atheist - I have to admit, earlier when you mentioned 'ideology' and I admit naturally assuming you as atheist, was going to point out the fact that it is an ideology - just didn't want to ignite that old chestnut. Although, I do consider it difficult to comprehend that anyone can have NO ideology, I gotta shoot to UNI yay! So will have a read of your link later.

As far as what I 'believe' as being a lot of nonsense, all I do which I'm sure yourself would also do, is to consider what those senses are receiving into my consciousness, analysing them, and coming to carefully considered conclusions - some of which must still remain theory, and others varying degrees of >= 95% probability as to being absolutely the truth.

You are right, I don't need anyone else's approval, and often have refrained from bothering with this subject matter on this forum. But as you stated earlier, we like to discuss ideas, and I certainly would like other peoples opinions on what I am suggesting, not necessarily their agreement.
Also, as I mentioned earlier, it's the so called 'militant atheism' that grinds my gears, since atheism is completely contradictory to what I have experienced as to the nature of reality (24yrs of analysis) - so yes, I like taking them to task and hope in the least that I can open some minds to other ways of looking at God, even religion.

I think if I was prior to 1997 - or a lot younger (I was a theist back then, I don't consider myself to merely believe anymore), If I was presented with the OP, I personally, would be convinced of the point 1 or 2 in the OP.
However, had I been a non-believer - I am not so sure - it would be wonderful to have a parallel Brian (an atheist in the year 1995 and a theist in the year 1995) and see what either (me) would think provided with access to this thread - of course - the creator of this thread in that dimension would be called, Agnosia and I'm sure she and I would get along just fine. :D

ANY THEISTS LIKE TO HAVE A CHAT\DEBATE!!!?
Perhaps, theists can agree that God is not perfect. Job said that in the Bible and god agreed.
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Re: Simulation or Divine Reality? - evidence of God\'God'

Post by attofishpi »

jayjacobus[/quote wrote:
Perhaps, theists can agree that God is not perfect. Job said that in the Bible and god agreed.
Not sure what that's got to do with me or this thread...apparently God also stated he is a jealous God...an admition of 'imperfection ' right there.
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Re: Simulation or Divine Reality? - evidence of God\'God'

Post by jayjacobus »

attofishpi wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 4:24 am
jayjacobus[/quote wrote:
Perhaps, theists can agree that God is not perfect. Job said that in the Bible and god agreed.
Not sure what that's got to do with me or this thread...apparently God also stated he is a jealous God...an admition of 'imperfection ' right there.
All I meant was that no one can be sure but I am closer to one hypothesis. You are close to the middle but lean toward "no God".
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