man is separate from truth

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DPMartin
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Re: man is separate from truth

Post by DPMartin »

Sculptor wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 6:56 pm
DPMartin wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 4:37 pm
Sculptor wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 12:39 pm
No. You are contrdicting yourself.
If you have desire than that is what you are.
If a person is defined by his desire as you suggest then he can only be truthful to himself to persue those desires.
nope this statement show you're incorrect:

"If a person is defined by his desire as you suggest then he can only be truthful to himself to persue those desires."


"if a person is defined by his desires", if is the big word here that you seem to be forcing into the conversation. I didn't say man is defined by his desire. a man can disregard entertaining, or he can entertain of his desire. which might be another subject. but entertaining and not entertaining one's desires makes the man much more so then his desires. the strength wisdom and guidance to do correctly, or accordingly, is another subject.

animals don't refrain from the pursuit of desires because they don't have to, unless there is no perceived opportunity for fulfillment thereof, which is not the expected case with man.
There you go - you are contradicting yourself again.
You have already described men as if they were animals.
no i didn't. you do know we can both see that, right? the text is right there.
DPMartin
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Re: man is separate from truth

Post by DPMartin »

Lacewing wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 5:27 pm
DPMartin wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 4:39 pm all man thinks about is fulfillment of what he desires in his heart
Wrong. I just as often, if not moreso, think about the collective flow of humans and life, and the benefits and perfection of that. There is greater good to be seen/recognized through connection.
gee could that be your desire?
DPMartin wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 4:39 pm man can't escape his desire
Humans CAN live by more than desire, but some may not.
can escape from and live by, lets see that would be two different things wouldn't they?
DPMartin wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 4:39 pmtherefore man is separate from the truth, because he is a liar for his desires.
Wrong conclusion based on the limits of what you are thinking.
well actually, its not really "my" thinking:

Gen 8:21  And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. 
DPMartin wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 4:39 pmone would have to disregard his desires of his nature for the truth. hence then desiring the truth knowing that he is incorrect and the truth is correct.
How can you know of such "truth", considering your limited and faulty thinking?
faulty according to who or what? your thinking? the thinking of the group of people you agree with? what?
DPMartin
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Re: man is separate from truth

Post by DPMartin »

Terrapin Station wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 6:01 pm
DPMartin wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 4:24 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 9:25 am
Your first post in the thread seemed to be saying that there's a problem with a relationship to truth because it's biased by desires.

So I was noting that in the vast majority of scenarios, that's not the case. And insofar as our desires go, they're often rather thwarted by truth, which often runs counter to our desires.
thing is, it would seem that the subject of desires can be a can of worms. the desire to have physical relations is one thing and how that is executed such as with spouse or someone else is another.

but is it truth that prevents man, and i don't think so seeing many wicked do as they please and have all they want without fear.

or is it man that refuses truth when its not conducive to their own will. for example, here were many will say anything thinking to win an argument.
Maybe if you gave a specific example a la "'P is true' but desire/will/whatever makes one deny that P is true." I'd have a better idea of what you have in mind.
like what do you have in mind
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Lacewing
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Re: man is separate from truth

Post by Lacewing »

DPMartin wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 3:18 pm
Lacewing wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 5:27 pm
DPMartin wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 4:39 pm all man thinks about is fulfillment of what he desires in his heart
Wrong. I just as often, if not moreso, think about the collective flow of humans and life, and the benefits and perfection of that. There is greater good to be seen/recognized through connection.
gee could that be your desire?
It's not a desire... it's appreciation. It doesn't need to be quested after.

Is your desire so strong to "be right" that you distort and make up shit in whatever way is possible instead of acknowledging your limited and faulty thinking and claims? You made a claim about all people, always. That's stupid from the start. Then when people give you examples to show that what you're saying about all people is not true, you persist. That's just more stupid.
DPMartin wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 4:39 pm man can't escape his desire
Lacewing wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 5:27 pm Humans CAN live by more than desire, but some may not.
can escape from and live by, lets see that would be two different things wouldn't they?
Ah, so we must stick with your faulty words. Okay. So your claim about "man can't escape his desire" is nonsense, as is being pointed out to you. It may be the case for some, or it may be the case sometimes, but it is not the case for all, nor is it always the case, always.
DPMartin wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 4:39 pmtherefore man is separate from the truth, because he is a liar for his desires.
Lacewing wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 5:27 pmWrong conclusion based on the limits of what you are thinking.
well actually, its not really "my" thinking... Gen 8:21...:
Oh, so here we go... escape from responsibility, and claim of greater authority. :lol: Is such imagining the desire of your heart that you cannot escape? Don't accuse everyone else of what applies to you. A great many people are not entangled in archaic ideas that they cannot escape or see beyond.
DPMartin wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 4:39 pmone would have to disregard his desires of his nature for the truth. hence then desiring the truth knowing that he is incorrect and the truth is correct.
Lacewing wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 5:27 pm How can you know of such "truth", considering your limited and faulty thinking?
faulty according to who or what? your thinking? the thinking of the group of people you agree with? what?
Well, it doesn't apply to other people as you claim it does, so that would make it clearly faulty to anyone who doesn't make such all-encompassing faulty claims. Are your claims of "truth" your heart's desire that you cannot escape despite all to the contrary?
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Terrapin Station
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Re: man is separate from truth

Post by Terrapin Station »

DPMartin wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 3:20 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 6:01 pm
DPMartin wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 4:24 pm

thing is, it would seem that the subject of desires can be a can of worms. the desire to have physical relations is one thing and how that is executed such as with spouse or someone else is another.

but is it truth that prevents man, and i don't think so seeing many wicked do as they please and have all they want without fear.

or is it man that refuses truth when its not conducive to their own will. for example, here were many will say anything thinking to win an argument.
Maybe if you gave a specific example a la "'P is true' but desire/will/whatever makes one deny that P is true." I'd have a better idea of what you have in mind.
like what do you have in mind
lol -- it's your idea. You started the thread. I'm asking you to give a specific example or two to make it clearer.
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Sculptor
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Re: man is separate from truth

Post by Sculptor »

DPMartin wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 3:09 pm
Sculptor wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 6:56 pm
DPMartin wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 4:37 pm
nope this statement show you're incorrect:

"If a person is defined by his desire as you suggest then he can only be truthful to himself to persue those desires."


"if a person is defined by his desires", if is the big word here that you seem to be forcing into the conversation. I didn't say man is defined by his desire. a man can disregard entertaining, or he can entertain of his desire. which might be another subject. but entertaining and not entertaining one's desires makes the man much more so then his desires. the strength wisdom and guidance to do correctly, or accordingly, is another subject.

animals don't refrain from the pursuit of desires because they don't have to, unless there is no perceived opportunity for fulfillment thereof, which is not the expected case with man.
There you go - you are contradicting yourself again.
You have already described men as if they were animals.
no i didn't. you do know we can both see that, right? the text is right there.
Your problem is that you are happy to see what you describe in humans, but you are not happy with what you see, and are trying to pretend that humans ought to be "better" somehow.
Your post is a conflation of these two things.
Humans do IN FACT pursue desire. Try to live with it.
Now, you want to define humans some other way than the way you see them. I'm sorry that that is hopelessly inauthentic and moralistic.
So, yes you are definitely contradicting yourself.
gaffo
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Re: man is separate from truth

Post by gaffo »

DPMartin wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 4:39 pm all man thinks about is fulfillment of what he desires in his heart. man can't escape his desire, and seeks opportunity for such fulfillments. therefore man is separate from the truth, because he is a liar for his desires.
he just one of the beast of the field following instincts (desires). nothing to do with Truth.

DPMartin wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 4:39 pm one would have to disregard his desires of his nature for the truth. hence then desiring the truth knowing that he is incorrect and the truth is correct.
no, dissregard for desire is not related to Truth - man is an ant and just an animal like all the rest - including ants.

and so Truth is beyond man's nature to find it - and beyonf desire or fight against of.

-me knowing i know nothing know i'm an ant and no longer strive to knew what that Truth is - its beyond me in my life, so not of concern to me.


if i am granted a next life as more than the ant i am in this life, in the next - i might strive for it, but that is conjecture and since i a m an Athiest i do not affirm a next life.
gaffo
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Re: man is separate from truth

Post by gaffo »

RCSaunders wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 4:49 pm
DPMartin wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 4:39 pm all man thinks about is fulfillment of what he desires in his heart. man can't escape his desire, and seeks opportunity for such fulfillments. therefore man is separate from the truth, because he is a liar for his desires.

one would have to disregard his desires of his nature for the truth. hence then desiring the truth knowing that he is incorrect and the truth is correct.
I presume you are describing your own warped psychology here. It's not true of all mankind.

Many human beings desire the truth above all other things, because they know living in conformance to the truth is the only means to the fulfillment of all other desires and a successful human life ofachievement possible.

Your view of humanity is pure hateful evil.
welcoem your view here - i think you are affirming knowing one's self -self actualization. - if so i agree that is the bst one can do in this life - but not apt per the Ulitmate Truth of reality.
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Re: man is separate from truth

Post by gaffo »

Terrapin Station wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 5:47 pm Most of the time when I'm assessing whether a proposition is true, my response has nothing at all to do with desire.

For example, if I'm wondering if it's past noon, a desire for it to be prior to or past noon has nothing to do with discovering the truth about what time it is.

Or if I think, "I have one beer left in the fridge," my desire to have one left has no bearing on my learning the truth, when I open the refrigerator, that none are left. I don't assign "False" to "There is no beer left in the fridge" just because I desire there to be beer left in the fridge.

The vast majority of things that I assess the truth of during the course of any given day are in the vein of the above.
exactly desire is a product of evolution bui irrelavent to the Truth - whatever the fk that is - and not worth my time striving to find since i lack the nature to find it - i had the desire......but as you say desire is limited - and so i lost that desire knowing my nature is not able to find many decade ago.
gaffo
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Re: man is separate from truth

Post by gaffo »

DPMartin wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 11:42 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 5:47 pm Most of the time when I'm assessing whether a proposition is true, my response has nothing at all to do with desire.

For example, if I'm wondering if it's past noon, a desire for it to be prior to or past noon has nothing to do with discovering the truth about what time it is.

Or if I think, "I have one beer left in the fridge," my desire to have one left has no bearing on my learning the truth, when I open the refrigerator, that none are left. I don't assign "False" to "There is no beer left in the fridge" just because I desire there to be beer left in the fridge.

The vast majority of things that I assess the truth of during the course of any given day are in the vein of the above.
what are you talking about you have to have a desire to know what time it is, or to have a beer. your reasons for wanting to know or the desire to know (want is a form of desire) is irrelevant. but your desire for a beer or wanting to know what time it is isn't a seeking of the truth for the desire of the truth. you desire a beer, not the truth.

though a beer about now is not a bad idea


i just ran out - if you got some beers i welcome your sharing - come on over.
gaffo
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Re: man is separate from truth

Post by gaffo »

Terrapin Station wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 9:25 am
DPMartin wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 11:42 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 5:47 pm Most of the time when I'm assessing whether a proposition is true, my response has nothing at all to do with desire.

For example, if I'm wondering if it's past noon, a desire for it to be prior to or past noon has nothing to do with discovering the truth about what time it is.

Or if I think, "I have one beer left in the fridge," my desire to have one left has no bearing on my learning the truth, when I open the refrigerator, that none are left. I don't assign "False" to "There is no beer left in the fridge" just because I desire there to be beer left in the fridge.

The vast majority of things that I assess the truth of during the course of any given day are in the vein of the above.
what are you talking about you have to have a desire to know what time it is, or to have a beer. your reasons for wanting to know or the desire to know (want is a form of desire) is irrelevant. but your desire for a beer or wanting to know what time it is isn't a seeking of the truth for the desire of the truth. you desire a beer, not the truth.

though a beer about now is not a bad idea
Your first post in the thread seemed to be saying that there's a problem with a relationship to truth because it's biased by desires.

So I was noting that in the vast majority of scenarios, that's not the case. And insofar as our desires go, they're often rather thwarted by truth, which often runs counter to our desires.
precisely, as if the two are related.

they are not - refer to Robert Sheckley's "Ask and Foolish Question" for such matters as well as "what is life and what is death" and "why is the universe expanding" - both wrong and irrelivant to Truth.


no death no life no universe.

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/33854/3 ... 3854-h.htm

good read -and my view on things i had before i disscovered him and is short stories - so not fake wannabee follower of sheckly - but most of his works are good - this one is mine - which i found myself in by the mid 80s - 15 yrs before i ever heard of sheckley.

Always like Answerer - neither small nor large - siitting alone to await those that come him - so lonely - ican realte to him - he's a good guy - and wishes those to come to him to ask quations that will enlighten the askers - but the askers are so many lightyears behind in nature to understand hm - or the Trut he offres.

but an Ant can't know the trtuth when it is presented before them.

The answererhas the Truth - knows it Even - is solitude is that others lack the nauter to know it - so alon (and why i like hm and identify with him - so he waits - "sitting on a planet neither small or large".............

its a great story that offers wisdom for anyone willing to recieve - and Sheckley is utterly forgotten today sadly - not even all that well know back then - 60's - but sort of known back then - now uttely forgotten..
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RCSaunders
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Re: man is separate from truth

Post by RCSaunders »

gaffo wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 9:56 pm i think you are affirming knowing one's self -self actualization
No, I'm affirming that I love the truth, that which describes any aspect of reality correctly, above all other things.
DPMartin
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Re: man is separate from truth

Post by DPMartin »

Lacewing wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 5:06 pm
It's not a desire... it's appreciation. It doesn't need to be quested after.

Is your desire so strong to "be right" that you distort and make up shit in whatever way is possible instead of acknowledging your limited and faulty thinking and claims? You made a claim about all people, always. That's stupid from the start. Then when people give you examples to show that what you're saying about all people is not true, you persist. That's just more stupid.


Ah, so we must stick with your faulty words. Okay. So your claim about "man can't escape his desire" is nonsense, as is being pointed out to you. It may be the case for some, or it may be the case sometimes, but it is not the case for all, nor is it always the case, always.

Oh, so here we go... escape from responsibility, and claim of greater authority. :lol: Is such imagining the desire of your heart that you cannot escape? Don't accuse everyone else of what applies to you. A great many people are not entangled in archaic ideas that they cannot escape or see beyond.


Well, it doesn't apply to other people as you claim it does, so that would make it clearly faulty to anyone who doesn't make such all-encompassing faulty claims. Are your claims of "truth" your heart's desire that you cannot escape despite all to the contrary?
the short of it you can't escape what's in your heart, desire if you will and desire can be any degree or intensity of want.

you said it was mine and i showed you, not so, that was written thousands of years ago. do i agree to it? sure. but its not mine.


again faulty your claim is that its faulty and i asked you according to what? you don't have that answer do you? man is born into honesty and truth, man is born into perceived self interest.
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Lacewing
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Re: man is separate from truth

Post by Lacewing »

DPMartin wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:05 pm the short of it you can't escape what's in your heart, desire if you will and desire can be any degree or intensity of want.
That's what you think. Others disagree.
DPMartin wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:05 pm you said it was mine and i showed you, not so, that was written thousands of years ago. do i agree to it? sure. but its not mine.
If you agree with it and spread the claim, you are making it yours. Doesn't matter if anyone else said it before you did. You are responsible for your claims.
DPMartin wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:05 pm again faulty your claim is that its faulty and i asked you according to what? you don't have that answer do you?
I did answer. I said that your claim does not apply to other people as you claim it does. That makes it faulty on behalf of those others.

But you want to make claims that apply to all men, as if you could know such a thing. Such as this:
DPMartin wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:05 pm man is born into honesty and truth, man is born into perceived self interest.
You only think you know such things.
DPMartin
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Re: man is separate from truth

Post by DPMartin »

Lacewing wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:36 pm
DPMartin wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:05 pm the short of it you can't escape what's in your heart, desire if you will and desire can be any degree or intensity of want.
That's what you think. Others disagree.
so how does that make it not true, because others disagree? so, disagreeing doesn't prove or make a thing not so
you still twist it to man is the judge of what is true. and man isn't the judge of what the truth is.
DPMartin wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:05 pm you said it was mine and i showed you, not so, that was written thousands of years ago. do i agree to it? sure. but its not mine.
If you agree with it and spread the claim, you are making it yours. Doesn't matter if anyone else said it before you did. You are responsible for your claims.
I'm not responsible for the book that was written no more than what was written in it. you say otherwise because you disagree with the statement in the first place. that's not a justification is it?
DPMartin wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:05 pm again faulty your claim is that its faulty and i asked you according to what? you don't have that answer do you?
I did answer. I said that your claim does not apply to other people as you claim it does. That makes it faulty on behalf of those others.
But you want to make claims that apply to all men, as if you could know such a thing. Such as this:
again, that's only your opinion that it don't apply, judging by your postings because the statements themselves are something you disagree with.
DPMartin wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:05 pm man is born into honesty and truth, man is born into perceived self interest.
You only think you know such things.
this one is a typo its supposed to say:
man isn't born into honesty and truth, man is born into perceived self interest.


if your trying to prove the mind is delusional, sure it is, therefore the truth is from something other than man, that has to be revealed to man. hence my reference to the source of truth, which is the Word of God. and not my thoughts or opinions, which are in error, but God's, which are not in error.
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