man is separate from truth

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RCSaunders
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Re: man is separate from truth

Post by RCSaunders »

Lacewing wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:42 pm Isn't a typical purpose of claiming to know objective truth meant to claim superior positioning over something else?
The purpose of knowing the truth is so you won't drink rat poison because you didn't know the truth of what is in the bottle. Truth is necessary to life. Most people believe being alive is superior to being dead.
Lacewing wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:42 pm What the fuck does man really know beyond his own limitations?
Speak for yourself.

Here are a few things normal people know.

Each statement in that list is, "true." That is all truth is. It is an attribute, the attribute of every proposition that correctly describes any aspect of reality. There is no other, "truth." You cannot live without truth.
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Re: man is separate from truth

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henry quirk wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 12:50 am there's no such thing as subjective truth.
Okay. I've lost interest in this discussion, but it was fun while it lasted.
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Re: man is separate from truth

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RCSaunders wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 2:13 am The purpose of knowing the truth is so you won't drink rat poison because you didn't know the truth of what is in the bottle.
Rat poison and fire... these are the profound objective truths that you guys are keen to.

I'm glad for you. Carry on.
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Re: man is separate from truth

Post by henry quirk »

Lacewing wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 5:08 am
henry quirk wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 12:50 am there's no such thing as subjective truth.
Okay. I've lost interest in this discussion, but it was fun while it lasted.
🤔
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Re: man is separate from truth

Post by henry quirk »

Lacewing wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 5:13 am
RCSaunders wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 2:13 am The purpose of knowing the truth is so you won't drink rat poison because you didn't know the truth of what is in the bottle.
Rat poison and fire... these are the profound objective truths that you guys are keen to.

I'm glad for you. Carry on.
Things like fire are unambiguous, hard to ignore, they're obvious, real, true.

As for profound truths: you don't seem to believe that exists. In fact, it seems, to you, there are no truths at all.

Again...

I asked: How do you define truth?

You: In whatever way seems most honest and appropriate for the situation and the moment. It varies. Something true yesterday is not necessarily true today.

I asked for an example cuz, honestly, what you describe is nonsensical.

I'm willin' to hear you out, if you have an example to offer.
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Re: man is separate from truth

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DPMartin wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:05 pm
Lacewing wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 5:06 pm
It's not a desire... it's appreciation. It doesn't need to be quested after.

Is your desire so strong to "be right" that you distort and make up shit in whatever way is possible instead of acknowledging your limited and faulty thinking and claims? You made a claim about all people, always. That's stupid from the start. Then when people give you examples to show that what you're saying about all people is not true, you persist. That's just more stupid.


Ah, so we must stick with your faulty words. Okay. So your claim about "man can't escape his desire" is nonsense, as is being pointed out to you. It may be the case for some, or it may be the case sometimes, but it is not the case for all, nor is it always the case, always.

Oh, so here we go... escape from responsibility, and claim of greater authority. :lol: Is such imagining the desire of your heart that you cannot escape? Don't accuse everyone else of what applies to you. A great many people are not entangled in archaic ideas that they cannot escape or see beyond.


Well, it doesn't apply to other people as you claim it does, so that would make it clearly faulty to anyone who doesn't make such all-encompassing faulty claims. Are your claims of "truth" your heart's desire that you cannot escape despite all to the contrary?
the short of it you can't escape what's in your heart, desire if you will and desire can be any degree or intensity of want.

you said it was mine and i showed you, not so, that was written thousands of years ago. do i agree to it? sure. but its not mine.


again faulty your claim is that its faulty and i asked you according to what? you don't have that answer do you? man is born into honesty and truth, man is born into perceived self interest.
It might help your case is you learned to use some basic grammar.
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Re: man is separate from truth

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henry quirk wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 11:15 am
Lacewing wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 5:13 am
RCSaunders wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 2:13 am The purpose of knowing the truth is so you won't drink rat poison because you didn't know the truth of what is in the bottle.
Rat poison and fire... these are the profound objective truths that you guys are keen to.

I'm glad for you. Carry on.
Things like fire are unambiguous, hard to ignore, they're obvious, real, true.

As for profound truths: you don't seem to believe that exists. In fact, it seems, to you, there are no truths at all.

Again...

I asked: How do you define truth?

You: In whatever way seems most honest and appropriate for the situation and the moment. It varies. Something true yesterday is not necessarily true today.

I asked for an example cuz, honestly, what you describe is nonsensical.

I'm willin' to hear you out, if you have an example to offer.
You know, according to observations, many believers have very dynamic moral values. Here, in churches, they atone for sins, and immediately a knife in the back of a neighbor (in the moral aspect, I mean, not physically). It seems that believers have both heaven and hell, but the possibility of absolution unties their hands and allows them to arbitrarily interpret moral and ethical norms. While many unbelievers stand firmly for their beliefs.
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Re: man is separate from truth

Post by DPMartin »

Sculptor wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 12:06 pm
DPMartin wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:05 pm
Lacewing wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 5:06 pm
It's not a desire... it's appreciation. It doesn't need to be quested after.

Is your desire so strong to "be right" that you distort and make up shit in whatever way is possible instead of acknowledging your limited and faulty thinking and claims? You made a claim about all people, always. That's stupid from the start. Then when people give you examples to show that what you're saying about all people is not true, you persist. That's just more stupid.


Ah, so we must stick with your faulty words. Okay. So your claim about "man can't escape his desire" is nonsense, as is being pointed out to you. It may be the case for some, or it may be the case sometimes, but it is not the case for all, nor is it always the case, always.

Oh, so here we go... escape from responsibility, and claim of greater authority. :lol: Is such imagining the desire of your heart that you cannot escape? Don't accuse everyone else of what applies to you. A great many people are not entangled in archaic ideas that they cannot escape or see beyond.


Well, it doesn't apply to other people as you claim it does, so that would make it clearly faulty to anyone who doesn't make such all-encompassing faulty claims. Are your claims of "truth" your heart's desire that you cannot escape despite all to the contrary?
the short of it you can't escape what's in your heart, desire if you will and desire can be any degree or intensity of want.

you said it was mine and i showed you, not so, that was written thousands of years ago. do i agree to it? sure. but its not mine.


again faulty your claim is that its faulty and i asked you according to what? you don't have that answer do you? man is born into honesty and truth, man is born into perceived self interest.
It might help your case is you learned to use some basic grammar.
i get alot of that, justifiably so, most is because i'm only on one cup of coffee when i post, but this isn't english class is it? if it sucks, hey, don't read it.
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Re: man is separate from truth

Post by Lacewing »

henry quirk wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 11:15 am
Lacewing wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 5:13 am Rat poison and fire... these are the profound objective truths that you guys are keen to.
Things like fire are unambiguous, hard to ignore, they're obvious, real, true.

As for profound truths: you don't seem to believe that exists.
But you do, right? I was thinking you'd offer up something.
henry quirk wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 11:15 am it seems, to you, there are no truths at all
Of course I know these "truths" about fire and rat poison. And all sorts of other "truths" that make it possible for me to make decisions and move through this material existence. But I don't see truths as something rigid or absolute that applies to all humans exactly the same. (Spare me the example of how fire burns everyone. I'm looking further than that, Henry.)

The idea of objective truth is used for all sorts of personal claims, while dismissing the obvious explanation of subjective truth. People have different ideas of objective truth... and each insists that his objective truth is the right objective truth. What the fuck ever. Some people (like me) consider how much we humans individually perceive and influence everything we experience, believe, think, etc.

Anyone can call any of it what they will. I have no interest in arguing immovable points/positions that don't even matter (to me). It is usually easy for me to discern the truthfulness of the situations I encounter... with successful results. Anyone else's idea of truth needs to be demonstrated for me to consider it -- and usually on this forum, brainwashed claims and cartoons are the examples offered up. :lol:
henry quirk wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 11:15 am Again...

I asked: How do you define truth?

You: In whatever way seems most honest and appropriate for the situation and the moment. It varies. Something true yesterday is not necessarily true today.

I asked for an example cuz, honestly, what you describe is nonsensical.

I'm willin' to hear you out, if you have an example to offer.
It seems rather pointless since we are on different channels. But, it's a new beautiful morning, so what the heck -- at least I can enjoy seeing if I can put it into words. :)

Let me preface by saying... I move through my life differently than it appears that you move through yours, Henry. I do not watch TV or read the news hardly ever anymore. I do not believe all of that noise (that's how it sounds to me), nor any certain parts of it, because I can see how much humans influence and distort everything. (That doesn't mean I don't appreciate and love humans, and see all of the good potential too.) I simply do not believe that humans know much beyond what they imagine, and what they define based on their current limitations at any given time. Yes, that includes me! And, like many, I am a well-functioning, happy human being. Experience has shown me that no particular position or perspective is needed to achieve that. However, there are definitely poisonous and distorted positions/perspectives that result in a much different life experience... which I'm not interested in, myself.

What I was referring to above in bold is that I try to tune in to each moment and situation with enough clarity (absent pre-conceived notions) to see what is right there, right then. I allow there to be many potentials to everyone and everything. I do not put them nor myself into compartments (unless I'm just playing around with it). I listen to what is said... I perceive what the message or energy is... and I interact with that. There have been people and situations in my life that were wonderful in one moment and hideous in the next. I think anything and any of us have that potential. Although I may steer clear of something or someone who is exercising their hideous nature, if I see them later... the moment is open to be perceived anew.

So in a world that I SEE as continually shifting... it makes sense (to me) that our perception/awareness of truth shifts along with that... and that's the truth I'm paying attention to. All the CLAIMS of truth by humans mean nothing if they aren't obviously demonstrated and useful in some way for dealing with the present moment. There is a great deal of information available to be perceived in each moment when background noise isn't drowning it out. And it's all continually flowing and evolving. To me, that ongoing change is not scary -- what would be scary is being too rigid to see anything beyond the rigidity. Recognizing potential (in all directions) expands a rigid world. Denying potential, locks down the world (yet, then it's not really "known", it's just imagined and scary). No matter what words or claims or beliefs are used to ignore broader potential -- it sounds much the same to me: a self-serving manipulation for the human ego (to imagine it knows and controls).
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Re: man is separate from truth

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DPMartin wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 4:02 pm
Sculptor wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 12:06 pm
DPMartin wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:05 pm

the short of it you can't escape what's in your heart, desire if you will and desire can be any degree or intensity of want.

you said it was mine and i showed you, not so, that was written thousands of years ago. do i agree to it? sure. but its not mine.


again faulty your claim is that its faulty and i asked you according to what? you don't have that answer do you? man is born into honesty and truth, man is born into perceived self interest.
It might help your case is you learned to use some basic grammar.
i get alot of that, justifiably so, most is because i'm only on one cup of coffee when i post, but this isn't english class is it? if it sucks, hey, don't read it.
It's okay until it descends into gibberish.
Your loss.
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Re: man is separate from truth

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Me: As for profound truths: you don't seem to believe that exists.

You: But you do, right? I was thinking you'd offer up something.

I got one: a man belongs to himself (or, a person belongs to him- or her-self, if the original is too sexist for you). It's true and the evidence for it is obvious.

The Creator exists is another (but, as I say, my evidences, in total, for that are idiosyncratic, so I won't wrestle anyone over it).


I asked: How do you define truth?

You: In whatever way seems most honest and appropriate for the situation and the moment. It varies. Something true yesterday is not necessarily true today.

Me: I asked for an example cuz, honestly, what you describe is nonsensical. I'm willin' to hear you out, if you have an example to offer.

What I was referring to above in bold is that I try to tune in to each moment and situation with enough clarity (absent pre-conceived notions) to see what is right there, right then. I allow there to be many potentials to everyone and everything. I do not put them nor myself into compartments (unless I'm just playing around with it). I listen to what is said... I perceive what the message or energy is... and I interact with that. There have been people and situations in my life that were wonderful in one moment and hideous in the next. I think anything and any of us have that potential. Although I may steer clear of something or someone who is exercising their hideous nature, if I see them later... the moment is open to be perceived anew.

So in a world that I SEE as continually shifting... it makes sense (to me) that our perception/awareness of truth shifts along with that... and that's the truth I'm paying attention to. All the CLAIMS of truth by humans mean nothing if they aren't obviously demonstrated and useful in some way for dealing with the present moment. There is a great deal of information available to be perceived in each moment when background noise isn't drowning it out. And it's all continually flowing and evolving. To me, that ongoing change is not scary -- what would be scary is being too rigid to see anything beyond the rigidity. Recognizing potential (in all directions) expands a rigid world. Denying potential, locks down the world (yet, then it's not really "known", it's just imagined and scary). No matter what words or claims or beliefs are used to ignore broader potential -- it sounds much the same to me: a self-serving manipulation for the human ego (to imagine it knows and controls).


Okay...I'm bein' as nice as I can be...we kinda, sorta, have a truce workin' between us, and I'd prefer not to pooch that up...but...

Those two paragraphs (which I carefully read, over and over) are absolutely meaningless as a definition of truth.

It reads as Lace's Personal Strategy For Getting Thru The Day and nuthin' more.

And, as a personal strategy for gettin' thru the day, it's fine (in a retro, 60s, way) but we're talkin' about truth here (what is real, what is true), not some *Eckhart Tolle derivative happy talk.




*just the latest in a long line of gurus who've bilked a lotta folks, sellin' 'em drivel
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Re: man is separate from truth

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henry quirk wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 6:52 pm Okay...I'm bein' as nice as I can be...we kinda, sorta, have a truce workin' between us, and I'd prefer not to pooch that up...but...

Those two paragraphs (which I carefully read, over and over) are absolutely meaningless as a definition of truth.
I don't think the way you do, Henry... and I don't define things the way you do.

If I was so oblivious to what actually matters, my life would look much different than it does. I must be on to something that works really well for me... and everyone who knows me would tell you the same. So your notions of "truth" aren't demonstrating or compelling to me in any way that suggests you have a wiser or more reasonable path.

But I do wish you well on yours.
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Re: man is separate from truth

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Lacewing wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 5:02 pm The idea of objective truth is used for all sorts of personal claims, while dismissing the obvious explanation of subjective truth.
What is the difference between, "objective," truth and, "subjective," truth?

If truth is anything more than that which distinguishes between statements of what is the actual case (true statements) and statements of what is not the actual case (mistakes and lies), what is it?

If objective truth is truth anyone could discover by observing and correctly identifying any phenomenon, existent, attribute, behavior, or relationship between any of these, and any principle derived rationally from those observations and identifications,
subjective truth would have to be something someone just made up in their head without evidence or reason, wouldn't it?

Can anything be, "objectively true," and, "subjectively untrue," or vice versa? Can you provide an example.
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Re: man is separate from truth

Post by Lacewing »

RCSaunders wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 9:24 pm If objective truth is truth anyone could discover by observing and correctly identifying any phenomenon, existent, attribute, behavior, or relationship between any of these, and any principle derived rationally from those observations and identifications,
subjective truth would have to be something someone just made up in their head without evidence or reason, wouldn't it?
Subjective truth could be exactly the same definition as objective truth (above) if you simply add these words: based on what one is aware of at any given time, and it could be wrong.

It seems that the way people on this forum have been touting objective truth is that it is unchanging truth beyond and untouched by varying human perspectives and interpretations -- how is that even possible? It has also been suggested on this forum that one example of an objective truth would be a god, despite no evidence... just widely ranging/varying claims and stories.

Considering how obvious and vast the range of human perspective is, how could intelligent people insist on ONE VIEW or ONE REALITY or ONE TRUTH for anything? What is this obsession with identifying ONE ANSWER? Is there anything in this Universe that is demonstrated as ONE thing? It's like a rabid sickness in the human mind to continually limit potential to tiny-ass human ideas of the moment. The obvious limitations and distorted influences that naturally impact nearly all humans should be enough of a clue to make them consider further than what they think at any given time.

Do you disagree?
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Re: man is separate from truth

Post by henry quirk »

Lacewing wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 8:06 pm
henry quirk wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 6:52 pm Okay...I'm bein' as nice as I can be...we kinda, sorta, have a truce workin' between us, and I'd prefer not to pooch that up...but...

Those two paragraphs (which I carefully read, over and over) are absolutely meaningless as a definition of truth.
I don't think the way you do, Henry... and I don't define things the way you do.

If I was so oblivious to what actually matters, my life would look much different than it does. *I must be on to something that works really well for me... and everyone who knows me would tell you the same. So your notions of "truth" aren't demonstrating or compelling to me in any way that suggests you have a wiser or more reasonable path.

But I do wish you well on yours.
*You have a strategy for the day-to-day, one that works for you: 👍

Thing is, this strategy, it seems, has little to do with what is real, true, truth (not a shot, just an observation).

I'd ask more about this strategy but my questions would likely just piss you off, net me what I'd deem to be evasion, and accomplish nuthin' but take up virtual space. Best, I guess, if I just leave you to it.
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