man is separate from truth

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Lacewing
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Re: man is separate from truth

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DPMartin wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 7:22 pm
Lacewing wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:36 pm
so how does that make it not true, because others disagree?
It's not the truth for everyone.
DPMartin wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 7:22 pm I'm not responsible for the book that was written no more than what was written in it.
I said you're responsible for the claims you make.
DPMartin wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 7:22 pm
Lacewing wrote: I did answer. I said that your claim does not apply to other people as you claim it does. That makes it faulty on behalf of those others.
But you want to make claims that apply to all men, as if you could know such a thing.
again, that's only your opinion that it don't apply
You and every other arrogant man who thinks he can apply his religious beliefs onto other people is SERVING HIMSELF. Who the hell do you think you are? Who made you the mouthpiece of truth for everyone?
DPMartin wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 7:22 pm if your trying to prove the mind is delusional, sure it is,
I'm challenging what we claim to know.
DPMartin wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 7:22 pmtherefore the truth is from something other than man, that has to be revealed to man.
Truth according to who/what? Just one more thing you want to claim to know exists... to justify everything else you want to claim to know exists. That's totally your freedom to do for yourself... but when you start applying it to other people and all of life, that's your bloated ego overstepping onto everyone else. The dark side of religion demonstrates bloated egos who claim they are repeating the ideas and words of a god which they claim applies to everyone. Such arrogance and archaic foolishness is what gives religion a bad name.
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Re: man is separate from truth

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Lacewing wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 11:57 pm You and every other arrogant man who thinks he can apply his religious beliefs onto other people is SERVING HIMSELF. Who the hell do you think you are? Who made you the mouthpiece of truth for everyone?

like any other atheist or atheist nation, religion is bad, doesn't mater if its true or not. and it can't be true because of your judgement of those who say they believe. as though atheists are not arrogant or impose their views that there is no God. you know like Russia did and china did. not allowing for any public religious expression, yet their views were and are taught through out the nation.

and the reason for that is human nature never changes and anything placed in the hands of man becomes corrupted because man is corrupt for his own desires, religious or not. which is another reason why man is separate from the truth. the truth isn't corrupt, man's views and expressions thereof are.

again what the truth is is the truth and man doesn't make it true, or false, whether all of man knows it or not.


side note:
it seems justifying being an atheist is based on what you argue here which is there is no real truth only what you want it to be. but you know as well as i do the earth is covered with what could be called the kingdom of death. and your stances seems to be that its good to be subservient to the fear of experiencing death and misery rather that be subservient to the promise of life, eternal life. just and observation.


its been real
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Lacewing
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Re: man is separate from truth

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DPMartin wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 4:38 pm like any other atheist or atheist nation, religion is bad
My comments are challenging your ability to speak for everyone. How can you speak of truth when you don't even know the truth in a simple conversation of varying views?
DPMartin wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 4:38 pmyou know as well as i do the earth is covered with what could be called the kingdom of death. and your stances seems to be that its good to be subservient to the fear of experiencing death and misery rather that be subservient to the promise of life, eternal life. just and observation.
That's not an observation, that's a complete distortion. I don't think any such thing. To me, life appears to be a gift, an opportunity, that can be experienced in many different ways. There is incredible beauty and love... as well as horrible suffering and hate. It's all there... as makes sense when considering such vast creative potential. It is experienced better or worse depending on how one is attuned. And there's lots of potential for that too. The experiences themselves (for better or worse) do not determine how one attunes. This has been evidenced in countless ways throughout humankind's history. Experiences don't define the people; people define their experiences.

If you feel good from thinking about a promise of eternal life, great! Many of us are living fully and gratefully, here and now. Do you impose what you believe onto everyone to insist on its validity and ultimate truth? Why not notice all the other truths? Maybe there's much much more! And maybe it's beyond knowing.

Can you demonstrate objective truth -- how can we see it -- other than you simply making claims that it exists?
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Re: man is separate from truth

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Lacewing wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 5:16 pm
DPMartin wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 4:38 pm like any other atheist or atheist nation, religion is bad
My comments are challenging your ability to speak for everyone. How can you speak of truth when you don't even know the truth in a simple conversation of varying views?
DPMartin wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 4:38 pmyou know as well as i do the earth is covered with what could be called the kingdom of death. and your stances seems to be that its good to be subservient to the fear of experiencing death and misery rather that be subservient to the promise of life, eternal life. just and observation.
That's not an observation, that's a complete distortion. I don't think any such thing. To me, life appears to be a gift, an opportunity, that can be experienced in many different ways. There is incredible beauty and love... as well as horrible suffering and hate. It's all there... as makes sense when considering such vast creative potential. It is experienced better or worse depending on how one is attuned. And there's lots of potential for that too. The experiences themselves (for better or worse) do not determine how one attunes. This has been evidenced in countless ways throughout humankind's history. Experiences don't define the people; people define their experiences.

If you feel good from thinking about a promise of eternal life, great! Many of us are living fully and gratefully, here and now. Do you impose what you believe onto everyone to insist on its validity and ultimate truth? Why not notice all the other truths? Maybe there's much much more! And maybe it's beyond knowing.

Can you demonstrate objective truth -- how can we see it -- other than you simply making claims that it exists?
i don't pretend to know you, and i don't care to know you, or what you're like or think. the truth is important and is important to be known, your opinion and my opinion isn't in that category of importance. but i can say what i see in what you post, and if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, one can reasonably say, its a duck.


for example: if you're not thankful to your Maker for life and living then who are you thankful to? could it be yourself because you keep breathing? even though you didn't give yourself life.

you like the hoax during American thanks giving were those who refuse to recognize the Creator and Judge yack some line of bull on tv about how they are thankful for. again thankful to who?


its arrogant to claim to be the highest form of being in the universe and still insist on being sons of monkeys. i guess you should go to the zoo and thank monkeys for the life you live making you the highest form of life that you know of.

whereas its humble to acknowledge a Creator and Judge greater then one's self.
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Re: man is separate from truth

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Can you demonstrate objective truth(?)

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You don't demonstrate truth: you recognize truth.

And objective truth is a misnomer. Truth, by definition, is objective: there are no subjective truths to distinguish it from.

The subjective stuff, that's opinion & belief which can be aligned with truth but is not truth, or true, in itself.
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Re: man is separate from truth

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DPMartin wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 4:46 pm if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, one can reasonably say, its a duck.
If one doesn't understand what else there is, one might be inclined to put things into a limited set of simple-minded categories.
DPMartin wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 4:46 pm for example: if you're not thankful to your Maker for life and living then who are you thankful to?
Why does there need to be a "who"? Don't you know how to feel thankful without assigning a recipient?
DPMartin wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 4:46 pmyou like the hoax during American thanks giving were those who refuse to recognize the Creator and Judge yack some line of bull on tv about how they are thankful for. again thankful to who?
You're not very smart, are you. Well, that explains a lot.
DPMartin wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 4:46 pm its arrogant to claim to be the highest form of being in the universe and still insist on being sons of monkeys.
Who does that? It's arrogant for you to spout off so much crap when you're clearly not very bright. But I guess you don't know better.
DPMartin wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 4:46 pm whereas its humble to acknowledge a Creator and Judge greater then one's self.
That's not being humble. Many theists use their association with a god to imagine themselves as greater than everything/everyone else in creation.
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Re: man is separate from truth

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henry quirk wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 6:20 pm You don't demonstrate truth: you recognize truth.

Truth, by definition, is objective
According to who? Man?

What "truth" would there be without humans to define it as such? Who would care about it? Who would think they can claim to know it?
henry quirk wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 6:20 pmThe subjective stuff, that's opinion & belief which can be aligned with truth but is not truth, or true, in itself.
So everyone who claims to know of objective truth, which varies from others who claim to know of objective truth, are all actually speaking of their opinion & belief.
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Re: man is separate from truth

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What "truth" would there be without humans to define it as such? Who would care about it? Who would think they can claim to know it?

Niagara Falls is real, yeah? Does it require man to notice it? And: since when is what is real, what is true, truth dependent on man? Man has opinions and beliefs about what is real, what is true, truth, but truth is not man's to establish. He can, as I say, only recognize it.


So everyone who claims to know of objective truth, which varies from others who claim to know of objective truth, are all actually speaking of their opinion & belief.

Reciting facts (water is wet; water comprises, on average, 60% of a person's mass, etc.) is not opinion or belief. Sayin' the Pacific Ocean, at midnight, is a a scary thing to behold, is.

As I say, opinion & belief can be aligned with truth (and the closer the better), but opinions and beliefs aren't truth.

The trick, of course, is distinguishin' between subtle truths and opinions & beliefs.

An example of a subtle Truth might be God. As a deist I can only infer Him. My evidences are circumstantial and idiosyncratic. I might be wrong. I clearly distinguish my belief in God from claiming he's a fact, is real, is true, is truth.

I believe God is real is not synonymous with God is real. I only assert the former (and offer what I believe are evidences if someone asks), never the latter.
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Re: man is separate from truth

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henry quirk wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 7:34 pm Niagara Falls is real, yeah?
So you're saying that what is "real" is "truth"?
henry quirk wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 7:34 pmsince when is what is real, what is true, truth dependent on man?
Who else labels it as such? Who else makes claims about it? Who else cares? Who else makes up stories about it the way humans do?

Of all the objective truths you think you know, does it change much of anything?

Isn't a typical purpose of claiming to know objective truth meant to claim superior positioning over something else?

What the fuck does man really know beyond his own limitations?
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Re: man is separate from truth

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So you're saying that what is "real" is "truth"?

Well, it's in the word: truth, true, real.

How do you define truth?


Of all the objective truths you think you know, does it change much of anything?

Sure. The most obvious example of how my knowin' sunthin' is true changes things is all the pain I've saved myself and others be recognizin' fire is hot, it burns, and it does so indiscriminately.

Believin' God exists, that he is real, is truth, has changed a lot too, though the changes are more subjective, they're no less substantial.


Isn't a typical purpose of claiming to know objective truth meant to claim superior positioning over something else?

Well, my knowin' fire burns gives me an advantage over someone who doesn't, I guess, but -- no -- I don't think that's a given.


What the fuck does man really know beyond his own limitations?

Not bein' snarky, Lace, but go crack an encyclopedia to see how much man knows beyond his limitations.

We don't know everything, but we know more than you give us credit for.
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Re: man is separate from truth

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Who else labels it as such? Who else makes claims about it? Who else cares? Who else makes up stories about it the way humans do?

At the moment: humans are the only ones around to recognize truth, to think about, to create stories to go along with (or deny) it.

We, as I say, however, don't make truth, we only recognize it.

We we excel at is meaning, applying value...that's what opinions and belief are all about.
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Re: man is separate from truth

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henry quirk wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 9:03 pm How do you define truth?
In whatever way seems most honest and appropriate for the situation and the moment. It varies. Something true yesterday is not necessarily true today.
henry quirk wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 9:03 pm
Lacewing wrote:Of all the objective truths you think you know, does it change much of anything?
The most obvious example of how my knowin' sunthin' is true changes things is all the pain I've saved myself and others be recognizin' fire is hot, it burns, and it does so indiscriminately.
What else ya got, Caveman? :lol: Hee hee.
henry quirk wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 9:03 pmBelievin' God exists, that he is real, is truth, has changed a lot too,
That's a belief.
henry quirk wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 9:03 pm Well, my knowin' fire burns gives me an advantage over someone who doesn't, I guess
Again with the fire.
henry quirk wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 9:03 pm go crack an encyclopedia to see how much man knows beyond his limitations.
That makes no sense. The encyclopedia IS what man knows. And do you think the encyclopedia encompasses the universe? Seriously... how smart do you think man is? Consider how much you criticize the humans you disagree with... how foolish and corrupt you think they are. Do you think such foolishness and corruption is truly only limited to THOSE?

Of course I recognize the potential of man's brilliance, Henry. I recognize the potential of idiocy too. I think that when we line up on "sides", we are blinding ourselves to what exists throughout. It doesn't make sense that only one group or area is a certain way, while others are supposedly "the opposite". There is good and bad and brilliance and idiocy everywhere. And whatever we imagine as objective truth is affected by such alignments and tunnel-vision.

Despite all that man thinks he knows, it makes sense to me that there is so much we do not know. In fact, it seems obvious... all things considered... which is why it seems so ridiculous for men to be claiming that they are speaking of objective truths when they're referring to reality or gods... and ideas beyond fire. There is clearly so much they are ignorant and skewed by... and yet they claim to know of objective truth. Riggghhhtt.
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Re: man is separate from truth

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henry quirk wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 9:06 pm
Lacewing wrote:Who else labels it as such? Who else makes claims about it? Who else cares? Who else makes up stories about it the way humans do?
At the moment: humans are the only ones around to recognize truth, to think about, to create stories to go along with (or deny) it.
And it's all according to them. Hmmm. Something very suspicious about that. :lol:
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Re: man is separate from truth

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I asked: How do you define truth?

You: In whatever way seems most honest and appropriate for the situation and the moment. It varies. Something true yesterday is not necessarily true today.

An example?


That makes no sense. The encyclopedia IS what man knows.

Well, you said What the fuck does man really know beyond his own limitations? I answered.


And do you think the encyclopedia encompasses the universe?

Well, as I said, We don't know everything, so, no.


how smart do you think man is?

Pretty damn smart.


Consider how much you criticize the humans you disagree with... how foolish and corrupt you think they are. Do you think such foolishness and corruption is truly only limited to THOSE?

Just cuz some men rape or steal or enslave doesn't make all men rapists, thieves, or slavers. Bein' capable of wrong is not the same as doin' wrong.


it's all according to them. Hmmm. Something very suspicious about that

It's all accordin' to us, yes...that includes you.

We're the ones who can recognize truth, or turn a blind eye to it; we're the ones who takes stands (form perspective) in relation to *truth.

*Which, again, is objective...there's no such thing as subjective truth.
Last edited by henry quirk on Thu May 13, 2021 1:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: man is separate from truth

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I wrote: Believin' God exists, that he is real, is truth, has changed a lot too

You: That's a belief.

Yep, that's why I italicized believin'.

Ain't nuthin' wrong with belief and opinion. You just have to, as I say, align those beliefs and opinions with what is real, true, truth.
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