Understanding the religious mindset

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22257
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by Immanuel Can »

Lacewing wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:21 pm I'm asking, what is the point IF HE KNOWS THE OUTCOME?
I get that. But I'm answering, "You're still free, even if I know what you're going to do." I'm not making you choose whatever you choose.

But I think the difficulty is maybe in cosmology. Perhaps you're assuming that there can only be one outcome, like a train with one track. But what if there is a junction in the track, and there are three tracks leading away from that...and junctions at each of the three, leading to other tracks and junctions...and God, being omniscient, knows what is down each track or combination of junctions and tracks, and so you are free to move among them? Then God knows all of it, but you are still located in a whole system of choices that allow you freedom.
Why would a creation be set up to have choices linked to promises of eternal rewards or punishments? Why wouldn't a creation be allowed to be free without any such promises?

But we don't live in that kind of universe. People choose different things all the time, without experiencing any reward or punishment. The key word is "eternal," because right now, we are not in eternity, and have volitional freedom and freedom of action. There is no automatic link evident to us between doing the right thing and getting reward, or between doing the wrong thing and getting punishment.

To believe that there is a reward for choosing God, one has to have faith; because one does not see it right now. To fear that there is punishment for evil, one also has to have faith; because it's not apparent right now.
So, promising eternal rewards to your children who choose to love you on your terms, and eternal punishment to your children who don't choose to love you on your terms? You think that's reasonable and makes sense for a human to do... let alone a god?
For a human? No.

For the source of existence, the centre of goodness, the wellspring of life, the light of the world, and the ultimate judge and rewarder of those who love Him...is it right for him to ask us to come to know Him and appreciate Him as He is? It's not only His right, it's our best possible outcome. So yes, it makes sense.

But it would not be right for you and me. Neither of us is all of the things that God is.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 2:27 amThere's nothing right now stopping you from making any choice you wish, anything within your personal scope, actually. You can't get any more freedom that that, really.
We can feel a more expansive/inclusive love that has no fear or division... so, yes, we can experience more freedom.
Are you afraid? Are you divided?
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 2:27 amWhy couldn't he have a network of possible outcomes, all of which He foreknows, but none of which, in particular, he forces you to follow? And being omniscient, could not God also know all possible outcomes, and manage them all?
Sure!

Why couldn't a god be part of the whole unfolding... without knowing the potential... but rather, allowing it? Creating, experimenting, and learning as it goes. With love for all of it as it is?
Do you want a God who "loves" rape? Slavery? Pederasty? Theft? Violence? Genocide? Racism? Gossip? Anything evil?

But humans use their choices to do these things all the time; and afterward, their victims cry out, "Where is God?" Should there be no answer for them?
I want to understand how so many stories that don't make sense are being circulated and believed?
Like?
Many religious claims do not actually demonstrate greater levels of love and freedom... and that's why those claims seem to be from the limited and controlling minds of humans.
Well, more than one "religion" can't be true, inasmuch as they contradict each other. So why would we even expect the "many religious claims" to "demonstrate greater levels of love and freedom?" For example, do you and I think Islam is true? So are we surprised when it turns homicidal and cruel? Or do you and I subscribe to Scientology? So why would we be surprised when it turns out to be superstitious and fraudulent?

If, as I would suppose, these are false religions, why expect anything out of them? Can we be surprised if they don't live up to the best moral standards? So then, what's the question?
seeds
Posts: 2143
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:31 pm

Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by seeds »

uwot wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 2:32 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 1:46 pmIf I take you to a restaurant that has a hundred items on the menu, but only let you say the words, "The house salad, please," have I given you a choice?
Why Mr Can you incorrigible flirt. You should do no less than your Supreme Bean and let us ask for anything, with the caveat that any choice other than the house salad will result in a red hot poker up the bum forever.

Image

Dungeon Maître D: "And what will sir be ordering tonight?"

King Edward II: "Anything but the House Salad. How about the Daoist Tartare with a side of Islamic Tripe?"

Dungeon Maître D: "Sorry, all out of Islamic Tripe. Might I suggest the chef's Southern Surprise?"

_______
uwot
Posts: 6093
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:21 am

Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by uwot »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:48 pmDo you want a God who "loves" rape? Slavery? Pederasty? Theft? Violence? Genocide? Racism? Gossip? Anything evil?
If so, the Old Testament is for you!
User avatar
Lacewing
Posts: 6604
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:25 am

Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by Lacewing »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:48 pm
Lacewing wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:21 pm I'm asking, what is the point IF HE KNOWS THE OUTCOME?
I get that. But I'm answering, "You're still free, even if I know what you're going to do."
So you're not able to actually answer what is the point. Yep, I don't see any point either. It doesn't matter how many choices are available if the outcome is already known... then there's no point to it. It's a huge game of dolls, even if the dolls can move and think by themselves. And I can't imagine any god being so fascinated in that, or needy of it. Which dolls will choose to love "him"... and how good will that feel, knowing they're so influenced by religious stories and promises they've been told?
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:48 pm
Lacewing wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:21 pm Why would a creation be set up to have choices linked to promises of eternal rewards or punishments? Why wouldn't a creation be allowed to be free without any such promises?
But we don't live in that kind of universe. People choose different things all the time, without experiencing any reward or punishment. The key word is "eternal," because right now, we are not in eternity...
Yes, "eternal" was the key word... which you ignored and didn't answer to. Instead, you switched the question to the present moment. Did you really not understand that I was referring to the rewards and punishment promised after life?
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:48 pmTo believe that there is a reward for choosing God, one has to have faith; because one does not see it right now. To fear that there is punishment for evil, one also has to have faith; because it's not apparent right now.
But the punishment will come, whether or not it's apparent right now, correct? And most people, whether they have faith or not (as you say), have been made aware of this from any exposure to religion which claims that, correct?

So, back to my questions: Why would a creation be set up to have choices linked to promises of eternal rewards or punishments? Such a setup doesn't make sense, as it skews everything. Why wouldn't a creation be allowed to be free without any such promises? It surely would. It is man who thinks everything must have an agenda and be controlled in the way that man thinks.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:48 pm For the source of existence, the centre of goodness, the wellspring of life, the light of the world, and the ultimate judge and rewarder of those who love Him...is it right for him to ask us to come to know Him and appreciate Him as He is?
So you think he needs and desires something? This magnificent god who has created atoms and galaxies and countless creatures wants the adoration and love from skewed humans who have been threatened to make the right choices, or else. Why wouldn't such a god create an awesome goddess to exchange love with? Why play with dolls?

If I were a god, I would create and love way beyond any religious storyline, which is all so contrived and in service to humans.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 2:27 amThere's nothing right now stopping you from making any choice you wish, anything within your personal scope, actually. You can't get any more freedom that that, really.
Lacewing wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:21 pm We can feel a more expansive/inclusive love that has no fear or division... so, yes, we can experience more freedom.
Are you afraid? Are you divided?
No. I just expressed that I am aware of love and freedom that is beyond fear and division. In comparison, your ideas of love and freedom appear to be limited.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 2:27 am Do you want a God who "loves" rape? Slavery? Pederasty? Theft? Violence? Genocide? Racism? Gossip? Anything evil?
Do you? Do you want a God who allows it?
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 2:27 amBut humans use their choices to do these things all the time; and afterward, their victims cry out, "Where is God?"
Yes, where is he?
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 2:27 amShould there be no answer for them?
What is the answer? Just hang in there, I'm going to punish them after they're dead.

What is the answer you see?
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 2:27 am
Lacewing wrote:I want to understand how so many stories that don't make sense are being circulated and believed?
Like?
The ones we're talking about are a good example.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 2:27 am Well, more than one "religion" can't be true, inasmuch as they contradict each other.
They might not be true even if there are not others that contradict them, right?
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 2:27 amFor example, do you and I think Islam is true? So are we surprised when it turns homicidal and cruel? Or do you and I subscribe to Scientology? So why would we be surprised when it turns out to be superstitious and fraudulent?
Christianity's history has included all of that at times, yes?

How well can anyone judge other bloody platforms from a bloody platform?

Do you think God loves Islam and Scientology? How about Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, tribal religions, etc.? Or non-theists? Can he love and understand and allow all of them to a degree/level beyond what human beings can fathom? Or does he think and love like you?

Why would a god be limited and divisive? If it is his creation unfolding... in such magnificence, with beauty and horror, but none of it is permanent... why would he need/have a certain game plan, or any rules or judgments?

When will it stop unfolding?
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 2:27 amIf, as I would suppose, these are false religions, why expect anything out of them? Can we be surprised if they don't live up to the best moral standards? So then, what's the question?
Maybe all religions are false and limited in what they think and believe, but they are useful to the cultures that create and identify with them. What I would ask any religious person is: Can you see the love and potential beyond your own beliefs and religion? Wouldn't your god be able to? Why do we humans settle for thinking in such small, divisive terms? And why do we project those onto a god?
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22257
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by Immanuel Can »

Lacewing wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:33 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:48 pm
Lacewing wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:21 pm I'm asking, what is the point IF HE KNOWS THE OUTCOME?
I get that. But I'm answering, "You're still free, even if I know what you're going to do."
So you're not able to actually answer what is the point.
I'm not understanding your question, apparently. Or else my explanation is somehow not reaching what's really concerning you.

Can you put it another way?
Did you really not understand that I was referring to the rewards and punishment promised after life?
Of course. But it seemed to me that you were asking about what they matter in THIS life.

Was I wrong?
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:48 pmTo believe that there is a reward for choosing God, one has to have faith; because one does not see it right now. To fear that there is punishment for evil, one also has to have faith; because it's not apparent right now.
But the punishment will come, whether or not it's apparent right now, correct? And most people, whether they have faith or not (as you say), have been made aware of this from any exposure to religion which claims that, correct?
I don't speak for "most people," of course. Nobody does: you'd have to ask them. The Bible does say, however, that all mankind has sufficient reason to know that God exist, and to know something about the nature of God as well.

But regarding your first question, the answer is "Yes."
So, back to my questions: Why would a creation be set up to have choices linked to promises of eternal rewards or punishments?
Well, they're not "linked" in the average practical experience at all. For people operate all the time without regard for any such "promises," even though such do exist. So to take those promises AS promises, one has to believe that God has made them in the first place.
Why wouldn't a creation be allowed to be free without any such promises?
Because if God would allow evil to rage unchecked forever, and the good to go without recompense forever, then in what sense can anybody speak of God being "just"?

It's funny how this works in cynical minds. They think that they can blame God for being insufficiently loving, because there's a Hell; and they think they can blame Him for being unjust because they assume Hitler, Stalin and Mao et al aren't in it.

They also think that the big criminals -- the Stalins and Maos -- deserve it, but that they personally don't. It's like they think there are little and big sins, and that they are personally the correct judges of which each is, and what everybody deserves...

That's human nature. We all want to tip the scales in our own favour.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:48 pm For the source of existence, the centre of goodness, the wellspring of life, the light of the world, and the ultimate judge and rewarder of those who love Him...is it right for him to ask us to come to know Him and appreciate Him as He is?
So you think he needs and desires something? This magnificent god who has created atoms and galaxies and countless creatures wants the adoration and love from skewed humans who have been threatened to make the right choices, or else. Why wouldn't such a god create an awesome goddess to exchange love with? Why play with dolls?

If I were a god, I would create and love way beyond any religious storyline, which is all so contrived and in service to humans.
I rather doubt that if you were inventing a "religion," you'd invent Christianity or Judaism. They're both far too inconvenient to basic human preferences. But then, human beings are not God.

It's a good question as to why God would love us. What would He want with such as we are? No wonder the Bible itself asks, "What is man, that You are mindful of him / Or the son of man, that you visit him?" It's a good question.

But God is God. He is who He is. And if I can't quite fathom his purposes, it's not a surprise. I am, however, infinitely glad that God not only cares for human beings, and wants relationship with human beings, but has granted us freedom and asked us to become His friends voluntarily, having already intervened to make relationship with Him possible.

I don't know how much more it would be possible for even God to do, in order to demonstrate the sincerity of His interest in us.

As to why He bothers? I'll have to ask Him. It's a bit of a marvel.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 2:27 amShould there be no answer for them?
What is the answer? Just hang in there, I'm going to punish them after they're dead.[/quote]
That justice is coming. And it will be absolute. And its effects will be forever...so long that the pains of Earth will seem scarcely momentary, and the rewards of having done the right thing will be infinite.

In short, the world experiences moral freedom from constraint, along with the costs of that situation; but it makes its decision about what it wants to do autonomously, and then has the effects of that forever.

Seems fair. It actually seems a really, really good deal, actually.

That's why Jesus asked, "What shall it profit a man if he should gain the whole world and lose his own soul; or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?"
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 2:27 am
Lacewing wrote:I want to understand how so many stories that don't make sense are being circulated and believed?
Like?
The ones we're talking about are a good example.
In specific?
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 2:27 am Well, more than one "religion" can't be true, inasmuch as they contradict each other.
They might not be true even if there are not others that contradict them, right?
The rules of logic cover the situation nicely. In a genuinely contradictory situation, both views can be wrong. Or one can be right. But the one thing we know for absolutely certain is that both cannot be right simultaneously -- at least, not if we're using the words in the same way, at the same time.

So there are three possibilities:

1. One God exists.
2. No gods exist.
3. Many gods exist.

This covers all religions and creeds, including Atheism (which is in #2). What we learn from logic here is that two out of the three are guaranteed to be wrong. And since they cover all possible cases, one is guaranteed to be right, too.

Interesting. It means that whatever the truth is, a whole lot of people have it wrong. But it also means one of the three is right.

What God is asking you to do is place your chip on one of them. However, if you don't place your chip, it's already placed.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 2:27 amFor example, do you and I think Islam is true? So are we surprised when it turns homicidal and cruel? Or do you and I subscribe to Scientology? So why would we be surprised when it turns out to be superstitious and fraudulent?
Christianity's history has included all of that at times, yes?
No. But I'm sure you'll have something in mind, so I'll invite you to speak on that.
Do you think God loves Islam and Scientology. How about Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, tribal religions, etc.? Or non-theists?
You've switched terms with the last one. The former list is all ideologies. God does not love anything that is not true.

But does He love "non-theists"? Yes; but not their "non-theism."
Why would a god be limited and divisive?

As limited and divisive as truth itself always is? Is that really a question?
When will it stop unfolding?
You'll have to ask God.

But the Bible says this: "...with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be discovered." (2 Peter 3)
Maybe all religions are false and limited in what they think and believe, but they are useful to the cultures that create and identify with them.
Is "cultural preservation" the litmus test of truth? Can a culture be "preserved" by a lie, the way Nazi Germany was, and the way Communist China or the Islamic states are today?

Would you think God would "preserve" that, and be bad if He didn't?
What I would ask any religious person is: Can you see the love and potential beyond your own beliefs and religion?

Well, you'll have to explain that.

Where is this "love and potential" in the three I just mentioned? Maybe we can ferret it out together, but we're going to have to overlook an awful lot of horrors to get there, I would expect.
User avatar
RCSaunders
Posts: 4704
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:42 pm
Contact:

Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by RCSaunders »

Lacewing wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:33 pm Why do we humans settle for thinking in such small, divisive terms?
Perhaps you're hanging out with the wrong humans. I know many humans who are nothing like that. None of my friends are like that. Why do you consider yourself part of the, "we," that does?
Belinda
Posts: 8034
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by Belinda »

RCSaunders wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:36 pm
Lacewing wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:33 pm Why do we humans settle for thinking in such small, divisive terms?
Perhaps you're hanging out with the wrong humans. I know many humans who are nothing like that. None of my friends are like that. Why do you consider yourself part of the, "we," that does?
RCSaunders and friends consider themselves better than those other humans who can objectively see no religion is the same as Almighty God .
User avatar
RCSaunders
Posts: 4704
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:42 pm
Contact:

Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by RCSaunders »

Belinda wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:05 am
RCSaunders wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:36 pm
Lacewing wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:33 pm Why do we humans settle for thinking in such small, divisive terms?
Perhaps you're hanging out with the wrong humans. I know many humans who are nothing like that. None of my friends are like that. Why do you consider yourself part of the, "we," that does?
RCSaunders and friends consider themselves better than those other humans who can objectively see no religion is the same as Almighty God .
Why thank you! I never said anything about it being better, just different, but if you think it means better, fine.

And what exactly is an, "Almight God?" In eighty years I have yet to run across one. He might be fine fellow, but I don't judge others until I get to know them.
User avatar
attofishpi
Posts: 9956
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:10 am
Location: Orion Spur
Contact:

Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by attofishpi »

RCSaunders wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:15 pm
Belinda wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:05 am
RCSaunders wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:36 pm
Perhaps you're hanging out with the wrong humans. I know many humans who are nothing like that. None of my friends are like that. Why do you consider yourself part of the, "we," that does?
RCSaunders and friends consider themselves better than those other humans who can objectively see no religion is the same as Almighty God .
Why thank you! I never said anything about it being better, just different, but if you think it means better, fine.

And what exactly is an, "Almight God?" In eighty years I have yet to run across one. He might be fine fellow, but I don't judge others until I get to know them.
Well, you didn't do a bad job. My question would be who needs a religion to comprehend this All Might He....BE?

..in other words, perhaps once one has awareness indeed gnosis, one spits out most of religion, including their own upbringing and attempts to comprehend who or what is this """GOD""" - A.I.? - im starting down the pitch of cold logic..
User avatar
Lacewing
Posts: 6604
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:25 am

Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by Lacewing »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:22 pm
Lacewing wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:33 pm I'm asking, what is the point IF HE KNOWS THE OUTCOME?
I'm not understanding your question, apparently. ...Can you put it another way?
We've been talking about all of this from various angles in a very straight-forward manner. It appears, from your responses, that you compartmentalize each point rather than connecting the dots, or you change the content of my questions so that you can answer to that instead.

So, I'm wondering if it's necessary for you to reframe ideas and conversation in order to maintain an unshakeable belief for claims and stories that make no sense outside of a certain framework?

I'm questioning how much belief is created by man, by exploring that which doesn't make sense. What is the point (for the god) of all of this creation, if the god knows the outcome? Wouldn't it be (as I've said) like a god playing with dolls? And why would a god need a certain interaction with humans amidst all of creation?

I'm suggesting that gods, as commonly described/claimed, may not be what humans imagine/fabricate (or rather, it is ONLY that which they imagine/fabricate). If we question the claims, and allow ourselves to connect the dots of the sensible answers, we can see how much the claims are structured to serve and elevate humans.

Any seemingly god-like power or intelligence would surely be completely beyond our descriptions... and yet, look at how much we describe what a god is and what it wants and how much it's like us! Really???

Surely it would be beyond our divisive way of thinking... yet, look at how we claim what it approves of and doesn't.

Surely it would be manifesting itself and/or magnificence throughout all, the microscopic to far-reaching galaxies, and on levels we humans cannot even fathom... rather than being obsessed specifically with humans and a spectacular agenda just for them.

Who would imagine being the center of the Universe and purpose of creation other than humans, themselves?

And if large populations of humans are claiming the supposed eternal rewards and punishments of a god's agenda for humans, in order to guide belief and behavior, it absolutely does affect and skew all kinds of things in this life. It is used and misused wherever any humans see fit.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:48 pm if God would allow evil to rage unchecked forever, and the good to go without recompense forever, then in what sense can anybody speak of God being "just"?
Why would a god allow evil to rage unchecked at all? Answer: God is not what you think.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:48 pmWe all want to tip the scales in our own favour.
That certainly seems to be at the heart of Christianity.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:48 pm God not only cares for human beings, and wants relationship with human beings, but has granted us freedom and asked us to become His friends voluntarily, having already intervened to make relationship with Him possible.
God wants humans as friends?

Can you not see how very small these ideas make of a god... while giving the human some kind of elevated status?
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:48 pm
As to why He bothers? I'll have to ask Him.
Ah... more ventriloquism as humans speak for the god puppet on their lap. Can you do it while drinking water? :D

Truly, there is SO MUCH to be in reverence of and feel a part of without these images of gods who speak and think for the purpose of humans. Why wouldn't any creative force be so much broader than that?
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 2:27 am So there are three possibilities:

1. One God exists.
2. No gods exist.
3. Many gods exist.

What we learn from logic here is that two out of the three are guaranteed to be wrong.

What God is asking you to do is place your chip on one of them.
So, you're bypassing logic.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 2:27 amHowever, if you don't place your chip, it's already placed.
Then what's the point of asking? It appears that humans are intoxicated with the idea of a demented doll game being played by a god that they claim is loving and just. It doesn't make sense that an all-powerful god would be like that at all -- rather, it is humans who are like that.

What are the implications if:
4. One God exists as many gods.
5. A god is not what humans imagine/believe.

Might humans be creating gods in their own image? Might they be judging and ruling themselves with a hand-puppet of their choosing?
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 2:27 am
Lacewing wrote: Christianity's history has included all of that (being homicidal, cruel, superstitious, and fraudulent) at times, yes?
No.
Ah, denial and rewriting well-documented history. I won't waste my time then.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 2:27 am
Lacewing wrote:Do you think God loves Islam and Scientology. How about Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, tribal religions, etc.? Or non-theists?
God does not love anything that is not true.
Maybe they're all true from a god's perspective.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 2:27 amBut does He love "non-theists"? Yes; but not their "non-theism."
According to theism and theists. :lol:
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 2:27 am
Lacewing wrote:Why would a god be limited and divisive?
As limited and divisive as truth itself always is? Is that really a question?
So you equate a god's truth with human truth. Of course you have to: your beliefs wouldn't work otherwise.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 2:27 am
Lacewing wrote:What I would ask any religious person is: Can you see the love and potential beyond your own beliefs and religion?

Well, you'll have to explain that.
Can you imagine that what any of us believe or see is only the tip of an immense iceberg of what actually exists and is possible? Can you imagine a love that encompasses all without human judgments attached to it?
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 2:27 amWhere is this "love and potential" in the three I just mentioned? Maybe we can ferret it out together, but we're going to have to overlook an awful lot of horrors to get there, I would expect.
How much do you overlook about Christianity in order to love it as you do?
Last edited by Lacewing on Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:09 pm, edited 3 times in total.
User avatar
Lacewing
Posts: 6604
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:25 am

Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by Lacewing »

RCSaunders wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:36 pm
Lacewing wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:33 pm Why do we humans settle for thinking in such small, divisive terms?
Perhaps you're hanging out with the wrong humans. I know many humans who are nothing like that. None of my friends are like that. Why do you consider yourself part of the, "we," that does?
Why are you so stupid as to respond this way?
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22257
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by Immanuel Can »

Lacewing wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:59 pm I'm questioning how much belief is created by man, by exploring that which doesn't make sense.
Wait. Pause.

Ask yourself how you're doing that. How are you able to decide which beliefs "make sense," and which do not? (I'm not implying you do not; I'm asking you how you go about the task of deciding that...what techniques do you use, what do you draw on.)

When you know that, you'll also know the answer to your first question.
What is the point (for the god) of all of this creation, if the god knows the outcome?
I suggested that if you wanted to know that, you'd need to ask Him. I cannot presume to speak for Him.

But what I can discern from what He has already revealed is that He desires us to come to know Him; but he wants us to do it under our own choice, not because we're forced to do it: for that would be antithetical to what is meant by "relationship."
...why would a god need a certain interaction with humans amidst all of creation?
Well, the Bible says that we were created for that very purpose. But God does not "need" man, so that word isn't quite applicable.
...we can see how much the claims are structured to serve and elevate humans.
I'm not sure what you mean here...but maybe you can tell me.
...our divisive way of thinking...
You've mentioned this a number of times. It's almost seems as though you think "division" is bad, and "unity" is automatically good. That is, you're looking for some way every human being can agree, all at once, and truth and falsehood, good and evil will not matter....

But maybe that's not what you mean. Can you explain?
Who would imagine being the center of the Universe and purpose of creation other than humans, themselves?
If you were supposing that's the Christian story, I'm afraid you've got it wrong. In no way is mankind "the centre of the universe." That's God's position.
And if large populations of humans are claiming the supposed eternal rewards and punishments of a god's agenda for humans, in order to guide belief and behavior, it absolutely does affect and skew all kinds of things in this life. It is used and misused wherever any humans see fit.
That can be the case, of course. If human beings were allowed to seize the agenda, as they often have, in fact, done, then it could turn out to be very abusive. But that feature applies to every religion and every ideology...even good things can be seized and abused.

Better to ask ourselves, "If mankind is good, how come we do this so often?" Or, again, "What is 'abuse,' here, and what does it indicate to us about right 'use'?"
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:48 pm if God would allow evil to rage unchecked forever, and the good to go without recompense forever, then in what sense can anybody speak of God being "just"?
Why would a god allow evil to rage unchecked at all?
Answer: because that's an entailment of mankind's freedom. To say one can "choose" the good, one also has to be able to choose the bad. That's what freedom entails.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:48 pm God not only cares for human beings, and wants relationship with human beings, but has granted us freedom and asked us to become His friends voluntarily, having already intervened to make relationship with Him possible.
God wants humans as friends?
He says that very thing, actually.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:48 pm
As to why He bothers? I'll have to ask Him.
Ah... more ventriloquism...
The opposite. I'm NOT speaking for Him. I'm saying you will need to ask Him.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 2:27 am So there are three possibilities:

1. One God exists.
2. No gods exist.
3. Many gods exist.

What we learn from logic here is that two out of the three are guaranteed to be wrong.

What God is asking you to do is place your chip on one of them.
So, you're bypassing logic.
I'm using it, actually. Aristotle's "Law of Non-Contradiction," to be precise.

The conclusion there is absolute. We know it for certain, because the mathematics of logic makes it true, not merely somebody's opinion. If the three premises are contradictions, and if they exhaust the possible alternatives, then it's 100% certain that two of three are false.
What are the implications if:
4. One God exists as many gods.
Then there are many gods, not just one.
5. A god is not what humans imagine/believe.
That's a secondary question. Only after we have decided there is a God can we ask, "What kind?"
Might humans be creating gods in their own image?

Humans can, and have done this, at times. Again, we can know that for certain, because their accounts contain absolute contradictions of one another.

But there's another question: do all the "Gods" have that same status? Or is one the true God, and the rest, invented gods?
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 2:27 am
Lacewing wrote: Christianity's history has included all of that (being homicidal, cruel, superstitious, and fraudulent) at times, yes?
No.
Ah, denial and rewriting well-documented history.
If it's "well-documented," it should be easy to prove that claim. Go ahead.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 2:27 am
Lacewing wrote:Do you think God loves Islam and Scientology. How about Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, tribal religions, etc.? Or non-theists?
God does not love anything that is not true.
Maybe they're all true from a god's perspective.
Now, that would be an example of not using logic.

If they contradict, they cannot all be simultaneously true. That much, we know 100%.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 2:27 am
Lacewing wrote:Why would a god be limited and divisive?
As limited and divisive as truth itself always is? Is that really a question?
So you equate a god's truth with human truth.
No. I'm equating the truth with the truth. All truth, as they say, is God's truth.
Can you imagine a love that encompasses all without human judgments attached to it?

Human judgments are irrelevant, of course. It's God's judgment that counts. But if love includes justice, as so many people today insist it must, then God's love must also guarantee the restoring of justice. And that entails judgment.
How much do you overlook about Christianity in order to love it as you do?
If you think I do that, then you should be able to tell me what you think I'm "overlooking." You might be surprised.
User avatar
RCSaunders
Posts: 4704
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:42 pm
Contact:

Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by RCSaunders »

Lacewing wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:00 pm Why are you so stupid as to respond this way?
God made me this way. You got a problem with that?
gaffo
Posts: 4259
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by gaffo »

Lacewing wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 7:16 am
gaffo wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 5:46 am here we see position of pride vs self actualization take on the matter
No, here we see different experiences. Why would I deny what I have experienced?
ok, i welcome clarification/correction on the matter - what were talking about last weekend? - honestly asking what i dissagreed with you about - i've forgotten and don't live here.

i welcome your help in helping me rem what we dissagreed about - yep i honestly do.

i ask for your help madam. - so we can discus my error, or agree to disagree on the isue i no longer remember about. ;-/.
gaffo
Posts: 4259
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by gaffo »

Age wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 7:46 am
gaffo wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 5:51 am
Age wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 5:47 am

Are you here suggesting that "immanuel can" has never told, or does not tell, lies?
yep - AFIAK he has not lie lied to me - nor have have i seen lie in posts i've read.

IF you can show post where he has lied i'm objective adn willing to se them.

thanks to post to me BTW.
I think you have misread or misunderstood my question.
tha tis not unlikely - since most times - 80-percent of i'm drunk when i show up here - because i become social and wish to talk about "life" - while sober i just "think about life" with me and myself as a natural initrvert. when sober i'm fine with being an island of me and myself - thinking - but after 6 beers - or 12! i have the compulsion to show up here to "talk" about "life" because alchohol does that it makes introverts bcome extravertish - for me as well.


but then i show up here - i'm not all here - i'm drunk, so that means my spelling is worse then usual (and being dyslexic at all times makes my spelling near illegibal when i show up here - esp after 12 beers - lol ;-/.

so ya mostly likely i was wrong about your post' intent - and it was last weekend so now have clue of what it was even about - but take you at your word - knowing your pots over the 4 yrs ive been here, i know you are not a liar - i agree with you more then emmanul on mot things - but i likie him as a person more than you - no offense wished -just being honest here - and all we can go by per each other are the posts we leave to others here.


none of us konw who is an honest actor or who is a deciever with an agenda - all we have to go by are the posts they leave - to parse to see if they are fake or honest in what they believer.

2 cents. peace and thank for reply Sir.
Post Reply