Understanding the religious mindset

[Atla]

Have I even TRIED TO, previously?

Well maybe you have no idea what you're talking about as usual.

Maybe, or maybe NOT. We will just have to wait, to see, correct?

Incorrect

[henry quirk]

So, no, you're not interested in asking/answering questions that don't support what you believe.

You mean like...

*What is the purpose of a vast Universe of countless galaxies that we don't even occupy or need?
**What was the purpose of the Earth long before we arrived on it?

...I thought you were bein' rhetorical.

Here's some possibilities (from a deist's perspective)...

*The Creator had a mind to create free wills. Such a thing required a Reality built in a certain way. In other words: to get one thing He had to accept other things as part of the package.

Mebbe He ran multiple experiments all over the universe (who knows how many worked out?).

Mebbe He just likes elbow room.

Incidentally -- in anticipation of a question or criticism -- I've never claimed the Creator is omniscient or omnipotent, nor have I claimed to know His Mind. I'm just a deist...I have no holy books, holy men, prophets, or commandments (outside of conscience).

**If the only way the Creator could get free wills was thru a slow brew method, obviously He needed a place to do the brewin'.


I thoughtfully answered your questions to the best of my ability... but you did not answer mine.

Just answered two. Gonna go thru your recent posts and answer the rest.


You just repeated what your claims are as if they are unquestionable pillars of truth that outweigh (and ignore) all questioning... and then you call them facts.

Oh, the cosmological facts I cite are accurate. I infer from them a certain perspective. I've ignored no questions (I just dismissed them as rhetoric...my mistake). Now, it's your turn: show me how your awareness and perfection that "knows what it's doing", your awareness and perfection... perhaps moving throughout all is anything but a claim presented as truth that outweighs and ignores all questioning.

[Lacewing]

Just answered two.

Thank you for the effort.

Now, it's your turn: show me how your awareness and perfection that "knows what it's doing", your awareness and perfection... perhaps moving throughout all is anything but a claim presented as truth that outweighs and ignores all questioning.

Two parts to this...

First, I have explained multiple times how and why I consider this perspective by looking to nature as an example -- and how that made more sense to me than some claims/beliefs.

Second, no I am not presenting my thoughts as a truth that outweighs and ignores all questioning. I frequently answer questions about it (except for Age's incessant and pointless questions like a child that doesn't even understand what has already been said... so I've now put him on "Ignore" to turn off the display of his posts). I do not know what ultimate reality is. I can see, however, what doesn't make sense, and what is unproven, and what appears to be self-serving... so I challenge those claims/beliefs. They seem worth questioning.

[henry quirk]

I have explained multiple times how and why I consider this perspective by looking to nature as an example -- and how that made more sense to me than some claims/beliefs.

And I have explained how lookin' at the apparent facts of cosmology points in a certain direction.

Seems we've done the same thing, lace.


*I do not know what ultimate reality is. **I can see, however, what doesn't make sense, and what is unproven, ***and what appears to be self-serving... so I challenge those claims/beliefs.

*Me neither (but we both have our ideas, don't we?), **me too (that's why I'm a deist, not a theist or monist), ***I don't think I've posted anything self-servin' (I've defended my viewpoint), but I could be wrong...how have I self-served?

[seeds]

Keep in mind, Lacewing, that according to Atla, you are clueless and beneath him when it comes to intelligence, and he is just trolling you for the fun of it.

Well if you really want to know, I'm 140-145 IQ range, which is considered borderline idiot. But I also seem to have some sort of acquired savantism which in my case seems to affect my abstract thinking (I can think with the unconscious brain which is kinda parallel and almost instantaneous, skipping "conscious thoughts" which almost all humans use). I've been called a genius many times throughout my life...

Yes, I'm sure that mom is very proud of her little man.

Unfortunately, even though you may indeed possess an IQ of 140-145, along with an acquired savantism, you nevertheless have been short-changed when it comes to simple common sense.

And that's because you seem to be utterly oblivious to the negative social ramifications of your comments as it relates to this...

Or, at the very least, they come-off as being preening little blowhards who make themselves look smaller and smaller with every self-aggrandizing boast.

Put down the "I'm the smartest person in the room" shovel, Atla, because you're just digging yourself into a deeper hole where people are compelled to look for (and point-out) your faults and delusions.

Furthermore, based on the following quote from an alternate thread,...

Took me a while to see clearly as well, and the form of nondualism I subscribe to may not even be that widespread, but I think it's "the" nondualism. Now of course the human ego is very much real in the sense that it's some kind of psychological structure in the human head, made of thoughts, emotions etc. What is illusory is the.. umm there is no good way to say it.. it's the illusion of the volitional, individual self-entity that "does" things, "has" things, and most importantly, "is or has consciousness somehow".

...it is obvious (to me, anyway) that you are trapped within a mental bubble (a "mindset") that is created from what seems to be your own unique interpretation of reality consisting of not just ordinary nondualism, but what you claim to be "the" nondualism.

Do you actually think that you've come up with something new?

I mean, the notion that a subjectively-based "self" (or "I Am-ness") is an illusion is not only as old as dirt, but it is also one of the most useless and counter-intuitive theories ever devised by, presumably, a subjectively-based "volitional self-entity."

Nondualism explains absolutely nothing in terms of how the unfathomable order of the universe came about.

Moreover, when it comes to everyday human needs and psychology, how would you use the concept of nondualism to comfort a mother who just lost a child to disease or accident?

The bottom line is that if you truly believe that if all of humanity were to understand what you (and only you) understand, then please explain to us how it would resolve the following issues:

• 1. In what way would it explain how the order of the universe was achieved?
  
  2. In what way would it provide the same kind of hope, comfort, and solace that billions of humans desperately need and derive from their respective religions?
  
  3. And lastly, in what way would it not simply be just another form of existential nihilism that suggests that there is no ultimate purpose to human life?

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Nondualism isn't about hope,...

Right you are!

And other than being a contentious debate topic on a philosophy forum, nondualism is an utterly useless concept to the vast majority of humans on earth.

...according to Occam's razor it's the correct philosophical paradigm which resolves the Western mind-body problem and reveals our "true nature".

How so?

Western atheists often say things like "we are the universe" too, nondualism makes you fully realize what this means.

Again, how so?

Unlike the majority, Atla is primarily a truth seeker and secondarily a hope seeker, not the other way around.

Sure, just as long as the "truth" that Atla seeks conforms with his pre-conceived (biased) assumption that the inner "self" is an "illusion."

I could come up with a thousand theories that give way more hope than the ones I think are most likely to be true, nothing would be simpler than that.

Then why not do that?

Why not use your self-proclaimed "genius" to come up with theories that offer humans the hope that there may be more to life than the few fleeting moments we spend on earth?

If you are wrong, then no one will be alive after death to ridicule your theories.

However, if you are right, then you will have offered something useful to humans to help them cope with the temporary madness of this world.

And nondualism isn't my "great theory".

Then what is your "great theory"?

In other words, what is it that you think you understand about reality that makes the rest of us seem like a bunch of clueless, knuckle-dragging apes?

Lay it out for us, Atla.
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[Atla]

Right you are!

And other than being a contentious debate topic on a philosophy forum, nondualism is an utterly useless concept to the vast majority of humans on earth.

...

So? Why should "truth" be useful?

[seeds]

Right you are!

And other than being a contentious debate topic on a philosophy forum, nondualism is an utterly useless concept to the vast majority of humans on earth.

...

So? Why should "truth" be useful?

"Truth" eh?

I wonder which part of the elephant...



...you've latched-on to?

Atla, I completely understand why you wouldn't want to respond to this...

...what is it that you think you understand about reality that makes the rest of us seem like a bunch of clueless, knuckle-dragging apes?

Lay it out for us...

It's because if you did, then everyone would realize that your assertions are just empty bluster rooted in the mundane trappings of Eastern mythology 101.
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[Atla]

Right you are!

And other than being a contentious debate topic on a philosophy forum, nondualism is an utterly useless concept to the vast majority of humans on earth.

...

So? Why should "truth" be useful?

"Truth" eh?

I wonder which part of the elephant...



...you've latched-on to?

Atla, I completely understand why you wouldn't want to respond to this...

...what is it that you think you understand about reality that makes the rest of us seem like a bunch of clueless, knuckle-dragging apes?

Lay it out for us...

It's because if you did, then everyone would realize that your assertions are just empty bluster rooted in the mundane trappings of Eastern mythology 101.
_______

Very well have it your way. My hypotheses are something like: 5-6 dimensional or multiversal, circular dimension, absolute symmetry, nondual, infinity looping total world simulations, comparing their relative probabilites through educated guess, to find the most likely scenarios to explain why we are here. Of course they also account for all known features like Einsteinian relativity, quantum mechanics and all other scientific knowledge (save unimportant details).

Before that, I narrowed it down to this set of assumptions as the most likely candidate. Also investigated every other assumption and found them less probable. The God assumptions are pretty improbable I'd say. Always looking for new things to learn, new ideas to investigate, but haven't come across anything useful yet on philosophy boards.

(One or more human minds may play a fairly central role in some of these hypotheses, but you'd have to actually understand nondualism and not just throw around superficial nonsense about it, to not misunderstand said role, or what human minds are in general.)

Sorry but it is quite likely that humanity will end within a few decades, no amount of genius can save it from itself, nor was it ever meant to be saved. There is no hope so I gave up trying to save humanity. Nor am I convinced at this point that humanity deserves to be saved. The more interesting question is what will happen after the end, there may be one interesting class of possibilities, which I'll be wanting to investigate should I survive that long.

Anyway I'm not interested in discussing these theories in detail with anyone. I'm just here to talk about some of the basics.

Again: why are you so fixated on the idea that "truth" should be useful, meaningful? Is that why you are pushing your seeds theory so much? Your theory comes across to me as a random God theory, why so invested in this one specifically and not something else?

[Lacewing]

Seems we've done the same thing, lace.

In our unique ways, yes.

we both have our ideas, don't we?

Yes, we do.

I don't think I've posted anything self-servin'

I don't think my posts/perspectives are as you characterize them.

We're getting along so nicely, though, let's leave this on a good note right now, okay?

[henry quirk]

I don't think my posts/perspectives are as you characterize them.

I can say the same.


We're getting along so nicely, though, let's leave this on a good note right now, okay?

As you like.

[seeds]

Atla, I completely understand why you wouldn't want to respond to this...

...what is it that you think you understand about reality that makes the rest of us seem like a bunch of clueless, knuckle-dragging apes?

Lay it out for us...

It's because if you did, then everyone would realize that your assertions are just empty bluster rooted in the mundane trappings of Eastern mythology 101.
_______

Very well have it your way. My hypotheses are something like: 5-6 dimensional or multiversal, circular dimension, absolute symmetry, nondual, infinity looping total world simulations, comparing their relative probabilites through educated guess, to find the most likely scenarios to explain why we are here...

And this highly speculative guesswork, which, in fact, could be utter nonsense, is what you feel gives you the right to sarcastically belittle the rest of us? Really?

Before that, I narrowed it down to this set of assumptions as the most likely candidate.

Key word: "assumptions."

Also investigated every other assumption and found them less probable.

Seriously, Atla? You have investigated "EVERY" other assumption?

I doubt very much that you have investigated the assumption that you are simply not conscious enough to realize that you are not conscious enough to comprehend that the Creator of this universe could not only be its living foundation,...

...but could also be as far above humans in scope and consciousness as humans are above amoebas...

The God assumptions are pretty improbable I'd say.

If you are referring to the mythological nonsense handed down to us in the world's religions, then I agree with you.

Always looking for new things to learn, new ideas to investigate, but haven't come across anything useful yet on philosophy boards.

Are you open to investigating the idea that you, Atla, are imbued with the potential of literally becoming a universe like the one in which you were born?
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[attofishpi]

Obviously it is difficult to describe concepts beyond human models. I do not believe human stories can encompass that which is beyond the human reality and its limitations of senses and understanding. Throughout nature, I see a kind of awareness and perfection that "knows what it's doing", as it explores, expands, perfects, and dances. It also appears to be connected, all throughout. I see no reason to think that there's a puppet-master for such a thing -- rather, the creative force drives itself from within.

The force is called entropy and it is the opposite of creative. Creation 'struggles' against entropy and will eventually lose the ' battle'.

Yes, Belinda..something I have considered - we could even say our bodies have this 'entropy' struggle until death of the material body.

However, a couple of theories I have since the sage introduced himself to me in Nov 2005.

1. The sage told me a couple of things about my previous life.

- therefore, this sage either is fed the information about my previous life - and lives and dies approx at the same age as us other 'normal' humans.
- or
- He is extremely old - beyond the natural lifespan of we 'normal' humans, (and this is plausible) since as per my new thread (Simulation or Divine Reality) - the God entity 'appears', to operate at the most finite scale beyond what we can perceive as even sub-atomic matter - right down to a binary position - where there is either an event or there is not - ergo - it can generate our reality, consciousness, matter from that extremely powerful position - thus - it is plausible that this sage - indeed his DNA is maintained - he could plausibly be aeons old.

2. Regarding the entropy and possible eventual heat death of the universe or whatever the outcome where energy no longer is useful to point where it could sustain human life - appears everything is in some-sort of cycle, eventually, and this is pure conjecture, the forces of the universe will mmm ripple to a point where, who knows, the a new universe big-bang style starts. The interesting question I would have, if that were the case - is as to whether information from the original universe could be carried over to the new universe - of course, I could be just talking complete nonsense, but in some areas where I have no basis for empirical evidence, I do like to consider such things.

(..now I would also like to apologise to you also Belinda for my language over recent years, as I stated earlier in this thread I have been yet again, this year since Feb been put through some rather nasty TESTS, for reasons I won't go into - then I hit the booze to deal with it, then I jump on the forum and vent - so sorry. I enjoy reading your posts. - the sage has told me this is my last chance. So - sober I is, having a glass of occasional wine with dinner as I did last night with my good friends - keeping away from the idiot friends - getting on with the art and writing sequel to Alpha Two, so best wishes.)

[Atla]

Atla, I completely understand why you wouldn't want to respond to this...

...what is it that you think you understand about reality that makes the rest of us seem like a bunch of clueless, knuckle-dragging apes?

Lay it out for us...

It's because if you did, then everyone would realize that your assertions are just empty bluster rooted in the mundane trappings of Eastern mythology 101.
_______

Very well have it your way. My hypotheses are something like: 5-6 dimensional or multiversal, circular dimension, absolute symmetry, nondual, infinity looping total world simulations, comparing their relative probabilites through educated guess, to find the most likely scenarios to explain why we are here...

And this highly speculative guesswork, which, in fact, could be utter nonsense, is what you feel gives you the right to sarcastically belittle the rest of us? Really?

Before that, I narrowed it down to this set of assumptions as the most likely candidate.

Key word: "assumptions."

Also investigated every other assumption and found them less probable.

Seriously, Atla? You have investigated "EVERY" other assumption?

I doubt very much that you have investigated the assumption that you are simply not conscious enough to realize that you are not conscious enough to comprehend that the Creator of this universe could not only be its living foundation,...

...but could also be as far above humans in scope and consciousness as humans are above amoebas...

The God assumptions are pretty improbable I'd say.

If you are referring to the mythological nonsense handed down to us in the world's religions, then I agree with you.

Always looking for new things to learn, new ideas to investigate, but haven't come across anything useful yet on philosophy boards.

Are you open to investigating the idea that you, Atla, are imbued with the potential of literally becoming a universe like the one in which you were born?
_______

No, I just belittle you for not understanding that

not conscious enough to realize that you are not conscious enough to comprehend that the Creator of this universe could not only be its living foundation,...

...but could also be as far above humans in scope and consciousness as humans are above amoebas...

is of course a very simple and obvious idea. Of course I've considered it, but I'd say it's highly improbable to be correct. What is probable is that it's just another desperate psychological attempt to try to explain how God is around even though we can't find him. But the observable world sure doesn't seem to behave like a God, and we need to add as little extra stuff to the observable world as we can, so extrapolating from the observable world we just get more of the same.

Are you open to investigating the idea that you, Atla, are imbued with the potential of literally becoming a universe like the one in which you were born?

Of course but put in this way, this is also improbable. Don't you mean that every time such a new "God" being is created, a new universe or realm or whatever is added? So as time goes on, there are more and more such beings/universes/realms or whatever? Which spirals out into infinity which is logically impossible. Unless logic is irrelevant.

[Belinda]

That is kind of you, Attofishpi . I like what you wrote. However there is no need to apologise to me as I am as horrible as anyone else. Do remember though , if you will, that if your new direction gets lost or confounded all is not lost.

Seeds, I refer to your latest diagram featuring a ladder. an ascending soul, and an eye at the top of the ladder. My comment is that it is not at all certain that mind is superior to matter.

[seeds]

As Gump would say, genius is as genius does ... and in the increasingly rare realm of objectivity, genius is defined by the doing, e.g., the doing that requires adaptation to circumstances that results in peace of mind.

Trump's genius is proven by the objective record of causation that affected the nation in positive ways, the same objective record that afflicted the anti-American status quo of the swamp ... and the swamp mindset that afflicts those made ignorant with the help of propaganda.

I understand that Trump could be an instrument of (soul-searching) change by being an in-your-face representation of everything that is wrong with America's greedy and hedonistic society.

However, I will never understand how anyone can think that the self-centered, petulant, narcissistic egomaniac in the gif video is an honorable person worthy of one's trust and admiration.

I mean, I do understand it as being a part of the necrotizing karmic payback that America is reaping from its treacherous actions around the world. Nevertheless, it is difficult to fathom how so many people could be so accepting of such an obvious con man.
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