Understanding the religious mindset

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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seeds
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by seeds »

Belinda wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 1:34 pm It is interesting to note that purely symbolic face coverings might make some slight difference to the number of viruses one breathes into the surrounding air. However one presumes the President wears a medical grade face mask whereas the religious women and the KluKluxKlan men are unconcerned about hygienic masks.
I'm not sure how this conversation morphed into a debate about masks (oh wait,...it's because of Walker), but my initial use of the KKK images, especially this one...

Image

...was to demonstrate that it is usually the circumstances of our birth that functions as one of the primary means by which ideological "mindsets" (be they religious or something else) are perpetuated.
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uwot
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by uwot »

seeds wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:56 pm...it is usually the circumstances of our birth that functions as one of the primary means by which ideological "mindsets" (be they religious or something else) are perpetuated.
You might be onto something there seeds. Of course, it could be a coincidence that christians, muslims, hindus, jews, buddhists and whatnot are dominant within clearly identifiable geographic boundaries. It might also be the case that there are a number of gods who shoulder the burden for the souls under their jurisdiction. Or perhaps those same gods are racist fuckwits who only care about the people who look like them. One possibility, which I think should be taken seriously, is that there are no gods, although to be fair matter, life and consciousness are miraculous so I am very firmly on the fence.
Belinda
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by Belinda »

seeds wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 4:56 pm
Belinda wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 1:34 pm It is interesting to note that purely symbolic face coverings might make some slight difference to the number of viruses one breathes into the surrounding air. However one presumes the President wears a medical grade face mask whereas the religious women and the KluKluxKlan men are unconcerned about hygienic masks.
I'm not sure how this conversation morphed into a debate about masks (oh wait,...it's because of Walker), but my initial use of the KKK images, especially this one...

Image

...was to demonstrate that it is usually the circumstances of our birth that functions as one of the primary means by which ideological "mindsets" (be they religious or something else) are perpetuated.
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The main aim of teachers is to give people more choices so they do not have to feel inevitably attached to their native cultures but can think for themselves.
gaffo
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by gaffo »

To aswere your question - fear of the unkowable/death - so mak up stories and gods to give meaning to life and not fear death.

that is the mindset of the Reiigous - to provide answers as to why my son died as a baby - and why i did not - why why why?

the fact is there is no why, but that too much for them.

it just IS.

------i take no side on the which religion - all are the same in the above.

I'm just a dumb atheist that negated a reasoned a mandate for being long ago (if there is a reason its beyond me and not willing to allow my fear of daeth to affirm the old time religious stories to give me hope) - so ignore me.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 10:55 pm that is the mindset of the Reiigous - to provide answers as to why my son died as a baby - and why i did not - why why why?
Do you know a "religion" that "provides" those kinds of answers, G?

Maybe a Determinist might, I guess. I don't know that any other ideological group would have reason to think they had any special traction on that question.
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by gaffo »

Belinda wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 10:06 am

Th Bible is significant largely for historical/ political reasons.If it were not for those reasons books of The Bible would be read only by the sort of educated people who can understand anthropological and historical sources, wisdom literature, and esoteric superstitions such as numerology.

per your last point all was lost per Reious theology by the Potugese - who burn Apostle Thomas' decendands works in the 15th century when they took control of Kerala Inia - and the Spanish when they burned the Inca and Aztec works.

Belinda wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 10:06 am The main deity portrayed throughout The Bible is the One and Only God.
no. a simple reading of the Torah shows its Polytheistic, and main Jewish God is YHWH, his brother is Ball and their dad is El.


- sure the Torah was distorted to mandate "one god" - but the earlier works are still there - Judiasm is polytheistic to the disstras of all jews today.

but thems the facts.


Belinda wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 10:06 am This deity has a history beginning with a tribal portable god . The portable god then becomes a god of place as well as a god of nomadic tribe. The deity then becomes wise to social control in such a way that individuals' intentions are implicated in morality.
yep. the "portable " god YHWH - the jewish god of war was marhced around on an empty chair around Jerico - until it fell. YHWH remained jus thte god for the jew - other God xisted but were not the jewish ones (funy how Ball was YHWH's brother and their Dad was El - but the book of exidus goes out fo its way to claim El is the ame as YHWH - not his daddy - so there must hav been stife in the land over that one - El = YHWH won out clearly - via time). I wonder if El cries over his lowering of status today - maybe El loves his son YHWH enough to not make a big deal of it (like maybe YHWH and his son Christ - who likewise took the limelight way from his dad).

who knows - maybe Zues is te True God and He having gotten is back turn upon by men - just washes his hands of men.
gaffo
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:21 pm
gaffo wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 10:55 pm that is the mindset of the Reiigous - to provide answers as to why my son died as a baby - and why i did not - why why why?
Do you know a "religion" that "provides" those kinds of answers, G?

Maybe a Determinist might, I guess. I don't know that any other ideological group would have reason to think they had any special traction on that question.
lower "g" if you will - thanks.

my last name is Gafford, but my moniiker for the last 20 ys has been gaffo.

now per your post. I think religion is there to provide hope and a reason to exist - i know as an Athiest i will never try to convert anyone to it - it offers no hope and no reaon to be alive. and since i am a nice guy i have no wish to convert anyone to my "Theology" - why i stumbled into it as a 12 yr old kid - no clue, only that my familiy was nominally Mthodist and i just was a born thinker about stuff.



Do you know a "religion" that "provides" those kinds of answers, G?



no a don't - but i think religon provide the concept that their God/s had a eason even if me being the dad do not understand - surrvival guilt is a real thing and i know all folks from all fatihs nor no faith have lived through it - I'v peronally not - to date. nor welcome it if/when i may. just stating my viww here.


I'm not anti religion - in fact i wish i was not an atheist - but i'm not - i'm anti asshole.

and assholes are not defined by their faith or religion or athesm - but by their character.

where you and I may dissagree is that i supect you view one that becomes "Saved" has a character that is imporvd, where i ignore one religon - from a muslim to ta christian - and asses their character via their works WRT to me - as honourable or dickish - and imn my personal xsperience i've found all folks to be - regardless of their faith - as 75 percent not asshole - and 25 asshole - regardless of their faith.

so i reject the concept that being "saved" makes one a better person - eince the asshole will become "saved" for self gain. - just ask any TV evangelist.(I'm sure there are Hindu Inains TV evangalists for Hinduism too - welcoem any link you hav on thme - love to wisness hypocricy in action)


Modi come to mind as a self proclaime Hindu while dividing his 1/5th muslims as not fully Indian for bing Muslim)

Modi is just another divder like tRump. both pure dicks. i bet Modis got a bigge rone though - Rumps hands are very small.


again I'm not ore ever been anti religious - that means i'm not anti Hindu or Muslim eiehter (you are a christain - so i assume you are) - i take each person according to their conduct toward me - nothing more nor less.

thansk for rely Sir - alwys like hearing fro myou.
Last edited by gaffo on Sat May 08, 2021 11:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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attofishpi
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by attofishpi »

Sculptor wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:10 am
attofishpi wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 6:16 am
Sculptor wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 10:12 pm Reason demands that belief follows truth.
It's right to believe that which is true.
Faith was required for knowledge of God's existence - reason then follows from the Truth of ITS existence.
That's easy - since god does not exist there is no need for faith that god exists.
So there is no need for "need".
AND THERE U HAVE IT!! - as an atheist U will never know the truth that GOD DOES EXIST.

Sculptor wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:10 am
attofishpi wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 6:16 am
Sculptor wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 10:12 pmThe religious mindset has this precisey backwards.
Atheists cannot be true philosophers.
Atheists are the ONLY true philosophers.
As U know I won this argument already - U were scalped - remember old man?

Atheism and Love of Wisdom (Philosophy) are mutually exclusive.

Sculptor wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 10:12 pmFaith is the mind killer.
Faith is merely a belief - something that was asked of us at the outset as a path to the wisdom (the truth of God) - it does not then prevent scientific reasoning\methods from being applied.

Sculptor wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 10:12 pm
attofishpi wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 6:16 am
Sculptor wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 10:12 pmAnything they believe they take to be true.
No they don't - it remains a belief - until revelation.
Belief is when you don't have any information to know, so you just make up what ever you want.
Some of us go one step further, and base our belief on information and reasoning - hence develop a theory. Eventually - God reveals itself to us, and we progress - developing our theory as to WHAT is God?
- You are still stuck with never knowing the truth, poor ol' attempt at philosophy *yawn* :D
gaffo
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by gaffo »

Emmanual - this is off topic but wished to say.

I've lived in my current house for 15 yr - about 12 yrs ago a guy that goes to the church next door to me (a Independant Baptist - ie.e all wmoen must wear 19th century clothes) - showed up to invite me to his chrich. nice guy "ken" - i told him i wa an atheist, from taht time he showed up about 3 times a year just to talk - he hated all Democrats (and Catholics) - Abortion- and loved Reichbugs. well after the fw times he showed up i noticed a topic he fixated on - not abortion - but GAY - and from the 20 times he showed up over the 12 yrs this was is fixation - all the while i'm thinking "he protestish too much (Ted Haggard anyone?)- more than if he were straigh).

anyway I'm sure he still hates himself and is inwardly trying to convert to staighism while not affirming his nature and finding another man to share lo0ve with.

to bad - I like the guy, just saying that religion can confine one to danmation - even when their natuer is not "fixable" by "faith".

2-cents.
gaffo
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by gaffo »

attofishpi wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:44 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:10 am
attofishpi wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 6:16 am

Faith was required for knowledge of God's existence - reason then follows from the Truth of ITS existence.
That's easy - since god does not exist there is no need for faith that god exists.
So there is no need for "need".
AND THERE U HAVE IT!! - as an atheist U will never know the truth that GOD DOES EXIST.

Sculpture is a lightweight - and you do not do yourself disscredit by equating what it says ofr all the other billions of Athiests out there.

- do you know we "we" - i include scepticsal Agnostics in my camp - though would wish them to take a dump or get off the pot - fence sitters.

that even in the heart of Islam - Saudi Arabia - 1/5t of the folsk there are non-bleivers!!!!!!!!!!!!!

if its 1/5 THERE- a shitload larger in places like Jpan South America and america/etc..........

Sculpture is a nittwit anyway - so why do you taek his posts worthy?
gaffo
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:21 pm [
Maybe a Determinist might,
I saw this and said earleir your relgion is not deterministic - but in fact it is on core issues.

1. Christ MUST Return at the End times - why?
2. There must be an end times - why?

- why are all the fundie Christian praying for the end times to fix the world - knowing it will result in 7 billion dead and sent to hell forever - INSTEAD of praying to thier God to not have the Tribbulaton - instead to to divert it via praying to save the sould of Satan to accept God into his heart - and thus no tribulation and no 7 billion died t the ned times - end times diverted! (is love too weak - the printed page of the bible stronger than your God? - its i swritten and so must bE!!!!!!!!!!! - so the penm is mighter than your God?)/

...........................

BTW if i were a Christian I'd suspect he showed up in the 1940's (Ghandi - what more humbe way to how up - in character of your Christ - as a Hindu and not a jew/christian) - and we did not seeHIM - like before - so all the chump awaiting for HIS return are70 yrs too late - your Christ is just "I showed up as a poor Hindu and those son's of bithces killed me - like they did 2000 yrs ago!!!! - no way shall i return again - fuck them"..............

so maybe you await a return that ahppend 70 yrs ago - and thugs killed him like before and now you await vain.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:39 pm I think religion is there to provide hope and a reason to exist - i know as an Athiest i will never try to convert anyone to it - it offers no hope and no reaon to be alive. and since i am a nice guy i have no wish to convert anyone to my "Theology" - why i stumbled into it as a 12 yr old kid - no clue, only that my familiy was nominally Mthodist and i just was a born thinker about stuff.
Methodist? I know a little about Methodism. I've even been in, and spoken in, a Free Methodist church a couple of times. Can I ask, what aspects of Methodism did you find you didn't like? I'm just curious.
Do you know a "religion" that "provides" those kinds of answers, G?
no a don't
Hmmm...now I'm confused. It seemed to me that you said that telling you why your child passed away was what "religion" did that was wrong; but you say you don't know any religion that does that sort of thing? Help me sort that out...
so i reject the concept that being "saved" makes one a better person
Well, you're right, sort of...I do think that being saved makes one a better person -- but not better than your neighbour; only better than what one would, oneself, otherwise be.

I have met very nice people of different religions and none. Some of them are very nice human beings indeed. But I have never yet met one that becoming a Christian made worse. I have, however, seen alcoholics and drug runners become wonderful human beings after being saved. And that, to me, is the real test...not "am I better than somebody else," but "Am I better than I used to be?"

Speaking for myself, I can tell you that being a Christian has made me much more caring, personable, kind and restrained than my instinctive nature would lead me to be. I credit that entirely to Christ. Of myself, I'm not only nothing special, but would say that I would be far from the nicest kind of person you would ever meet. But I'm thankful, in that sense, not to "be me." I can see what I've been saved from becoming, and I'm very thankful. I suspect a lot of other people have reason to be, too.
thansk for rely Sir - alwys like hearing fro myou.
No probs. My pleasure.
gaffo
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 12:45 am
Methodist? I know a little about Methodism. I've even been in, and spoken in, a Free Methodist church a couple of times. Can I ask, what aspects of Methodism did you find you didn't like? I'm just curious.
You prob know mre than me - my acestors wre Southern Baptists - GG-parents...my grandmother wa nonomally christian and though raised as a souther Baptist - joined the Presiteerian church - why - it was only one blaock away from her home.

my mom wa never religious, but joined the Firs tChristian and Methodist churches (my sister was in the methodist but never 1st christian church) - just for social things. they both wnet to services maybe 6 times a year, but not realy christians - agnostic basically - then - now prob not formally Athiets but prectically so.

none of my ancestorrs post to my GG-perents were beleive - thats jus thte way is wa. why no ida. but i never had the inculcation to be a beliver - i did show up to my grandmothrs prebiterain church and moms 1t christian church and my sisters methodis church - back in the 70's - as a non-bleiver.

as to the teentents of those thre vs other - i only know what iv'e red in the books - not what i hear from the pulpits - Presbiterians beleives in predestination - to what extinct not sure - ask Jon Calvin, full or partial?

Methodists are almost identical to southern Baptists - outside of once save always saved (which i thing the baptists are wong on - a get out of jail card for fre" imo - bapts s ay "Well if so and so killed his familiy then he was not saved in teh first place - double standard - bogwash that denis backsliding).


Immanuel Can wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 12:45 am Hmmm...now I'm confused. It seemed to me that you said that telling you why your child passed away was what "religion" did that was wrong; but you say you don't know any religion that does that sort of thing? Help me sort that out...
I was refering to survival guilt - the dad - and blaimig god for killing his son - what a "reason" only god know.

Its small comfort that 'god move in mysterious ways" when your kid is dead, but maybe better than noting?



Immanuel Can wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 12:45 am I have met very nice people of different religions and none. Some of them are very nice human beings indeed. But I have never yet met one that becoming a Christian made worse.

thats i difficult thing to confirm - unless you've know former Hindus/Muslims/Jews that converted to Chritianity and more the one - say like 10 at least - before you can make that observation. Iwnet to college with a Greek Christian that hated all Turks for the sacking of Constantinople - 600 yrs ago - i told him i though he was a fool, later he seemed to like me for calling him out - stil lthough he was a dick though for having such a closed mind over 600 yr old greivences - esp since the moran didnot know any turks peronally. if hem being a Christian made him better than oterwise, i'd hate to know the person he'd be if h were no a christian.

convertion is rare. adoption less so.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 12:45 am I have, however, seen alcoholics and drug runners become wonderful human beings after being saved. And that, to me, is the real test...not "am I better than somebody else," but "Am I better than I used to be?"
indeed and good for them - i have no wish to se anyone suffer - if their conversion to christianity helps them fine by me. as lopng as they don't discriminate against me for not being also a Chrsitian.


live and let live.

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 12:45 am Speaking for myself, I can tell you that being a Christian has made me much more caring, personable, kind and restrained than my instinctive nature would lead me to be. I credit that entirely to Christ. Of myself, I'm not only nothing special, but would say that I would be far from the nicest kind of person you would ever meet. But I'm thankful, in that sense, not to "be me." I can see what I've been saved from becoming, and I'm very thankful. I suspect a lot of other people have reason to be, too.
i like your humility and if your fiath has made you a better man good, though i suspect you were a good amn prior and had humity also.

I don't think my conversion would make me a better man - in fact i think it might make me worse - inststing i know the Truth and others i must convert or else dserve hell forever - an issue i have with your religion - hell forever with immortal souls that are on earth only for a short time.

thanks for reply as always.
gaffo
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by gaffo »

utterly off topic - but have your read the book by walter miller jr the canticle for leibowitz? or heard the radioplay of?

https://archive.org/details/NPRPresents ... ZIn15Parts

if not, I'd like you to give it a listen - all 8 hours of - and come back in a week or so and give me your idea of who Bin eliazer was - what that character represented (the wandering immortal jew looking for the messiah over the centuries)

and yes history repeats itself over and over and over - ww1/ww2/ww3/ww4/ww5/ww6/ww7/etc.
I have the audio CD set from ZBS foundation - bought in 2004 (40 bucks)- no longer offreed - i uploaded 168 VBR mp3's to the Usenet in 2006 - and the torrents took it up from h\on there. not sure if the Archive verion is mine or not - but the sound quality is better than what used to be offered 15 yrs ago.


BTW the credits are wrong per Coral Cowen - not Carol Collins - she also did vioce acting on several Mindwebs shows from the same time - a little earlier - 70's. those shows are also at the Internet Archive and excellent - 180 shows 30 mins each.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 1:37 am You prob know mre than me - my acestors wre Southern Baptists... Methodists are almost identical to southern Baptists - outside of once save always saved (which i thing the baptists are wong on - a get out of jail card for fre" imo - bapts s ay "Well if so and so killed his familiy then he was not saved in teh first place - double standard - bogwash that denis backsliding).
Thanks for sharing so honestly.

I don't think that's what the theology actually says, so if you've run into folks who think that way, I think they're probably untypical...and maybe don't understand what they're supposed to be believing. But perhaps you've met folks just like that.
Its small comfort that 'god move in mysterious ways" when your kid is dead, but maybe better than noting?
No, I'd agree with you...that's a terrible answer...really, a non-answer, more than anything.

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 12:45 am I have met very nice people of different religions and none. Some of them are very nice human beings indeed. But I have never yet met one that becoming a Christian made worse.
thats i difficult thing to confirm - unless you've know former Hindus/Muslims/Jews that converted to Chritianity
Well, yes, I certainly have...and would say exactly the same for them. But I was primarily thinking of the cases I mentioned...people who were addicted or involved in crime, or who had suffered abuse, or had been on the streets, or who struggled with depression...all kinds of things. I've known a lot of those sorts. They are much better saved than lost. But I was also talking about the one person about whom I know most -- myself. And I'm quite sure I would be much the worse for not being a Christian.

i suspect you were a good amn prior and had humity also.
Oh, I wish I could say so much of myself. But the truth is that very little of either quality is intrinsic to me. No, I'm much better for knowing Christ, and I'm sure everybody who knows me thinks the same. No harm in admitting that: it's the truth. Part of being a Christian is seeing oneself for what one is, and stopping the games we play with ourselves when we try to make excuses for our own character faults.

If you ask almost anyone, from upstanding citizen to felon, whether or not they are a good person, almost all will say, "Sure." They might be murderers, but they'll still say the same thing. We're not really very honest with ourselves most of the time, and we keep our finger on the scales we use to weigh ourselves, I'm afraid. That's just how human nature tends to operate.
I don't think my conversion would make me a better man - in fact i think it might make me worse - inststing i know the Truth and others i must convert or else dserve hell forever - an issue i have with your religion - hell forever with immortal souls that are on earth only for a short time.
Well, there's nobody in Hell who doesn't chosen it. And there's nobody in heaven who hasn't chosen that, either. So either way, we get what we choose. And from that perspective, that seems quite fair.

There's more to say about that, of course; but that's a starting point.
thanks for reply as always.
Likewise.
Last edited by Immanuel Can on Sun May 09, 2021 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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