Understanding the religious mindset

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Lacewing
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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henry quirk wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 4:44 pm Lace...
Great response, Henry... thanks.
henry quirk wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 4:44 pm Our ignorance may have us misunderstand truth, mislabel truth, conflate truth with non-truth, but truth itself exists independently of our misapprehensions.[/i]
Okay, so... if we do any/all of these things, we do not know truth... and actual truth is lost on us, yes?

And how can we know if a static truth even exists in regard to the creation we see? Humans imagine static truths because humans like to imagine that things can be "knowable" by them. But does such a knowledge really make any sense for us?
henry quirk wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 4:44 pm
Lacewing wrote:What kind of a god would need to be represented by such old material?
None. A Creator, if it exists, as I reckon it, doesn't need or care about representation. Man describes the Creator, defines it, creates representations of it, for himself. Man attempts to give a shape, a form, to that which is outside of convention, outside Euclidian thinkin'. He calls it God, or Maker, or Creator becuz he has no better word for it.

Man struggles to lay a symbol on it, to get a handle on sumthin' ineffable (or that may not exist).

Prime Mover, The Unmoved Mover, The First Principle, etc., man applies these placeholders to what seems apparent but is mysterious. Along with the placeholders, some men craft narratives, sometimes to more cleanly or clearly define what or who the Creator is, sometimes to create hierarchies wherein they are the top dog, but these stories are for man's benefit or profit, not God's.
That sounds like a reasonable description, and that is what I see too.

What I wonder is why we would believe and perpetuate something that is built on archaic beliefs and language, rather than that which is more present? Some churches do attempt to align with our current era, and to embrace what's common in many belief systems. Evolving beliefs along with humankind seems to make the most sense. It is those who rigidly cling to archaic scripts and symbols that seem to diminish the potential and expansion of spiritual ideas.

Such often seems like a complete rejection of who we are and what we are capable of NOW, seemingly in favor of worshipping old idols that cannot be proven or realistically examined in today's light. It seems hidden in shadows.

Are there other ideas/beliefs that we would think it reasonable to identify with to such a degree from ancient history, if such stories were not experienced personally by us? If we want to envision a god/creator, why not imagine it as something much more sensible than what fearful ancients imagined and used to control each other? If we cannot visualize the best of ourselves, how can we visualize a more evolved god/creator? And why would we subscribe to anything less, except to control and be controlled?
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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Okay, so... if we do any/all of these things, we do not know truth... and actual truth is lost on us, yes?

Not necessarily. Not fully comprehendin' god, for example, might be akin to seein' him or it through a a fog. He's there, we see Him, just not clearly.

And how can we know if a static truth even exists in regard to the creation we see? Humans imagine static truths because humans like to imagine that things can be "knowable" by them. But does such a knowledge really make any sense for us?

As I say, reason and intuition are marvelous tools. We can infer things with them. Reason and intuition brought me to deism, for example.

Seems to me we don't merely imagine we can know, but can actually know through direct observation or through inference. The atom was posited well before it was possible to verify, for example


What I wonder is why we would believe and perpetuate something that is built on archaic beliefs and language, rather than that which is more present?

Man is a metaphor maker, a symbol assigner and today's metaphors fall short. Consider the dominant metaphor: man is a machine, no different than the countless other machines flying, crawling, or swimming on Earth. We're told we have no free will, are just brain states not minds, that we're insignificant. Why embrace this as definition? Older thought had room for the Hero's Journey and the Wizard's trials, for spirit and God and mystery, for the solitary and idiosyncratic. Today, there's only room for system and fiber optical cable, for analytics and reduction to constituent parts.


If we want to envision a god/creator, why not imagine it as something much more sensible than what fearful ancients imagined and used to control each other?

The most direct answer: becuz mebbe God is not sumthin' we can apply sensibility to, and perhaps is awful.


If we cannot visualize the best of ourselves, how can we visualize a more evolved god/creator?

If God exists (I believe He does) then we should spend less time visualizin' him as we'd like him to be and more tryin' to blow away that fog so as to see him more clearly.

And if He doesn't exist, well, then Reality is barren, man is a monkey, and Willard Motley was right.
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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Lacewing wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:07 pm What kind of mindset believes in and perpetuates ancient imaginings and stories, as if they could possibly be more relevant than what is evident and present today?

Why would the world of the past, and its words and understandings assembled and re-translated/assembled in various books, be the most significant guide adopted by some people living today?

How could humans at that time be thought to have more awareness and understanding than humans thousands of years later?

What kind of a god would need to be represented by such old material?

Is it because the mystery of the old material can be mysteriously used/applied to explain the mystery of existence that humans want to feel they can know and/or have protection from?
Back in the olden days folks had fewer distractions, fewer entertainments. They had pointy heads. Their active minds moved vertically, not horizontally as in the digital age. Back then, without computer screens insomniacs only stared at points of light *. Back when knowledge wasn’t doubling all the time, a missing point of light or a new point of light would be noticed by many non-experts. Other subtle things were undoubtedly noticed in the vertical ascent of active minds deprived of horizontal distractions.

* Reference Buddhist Shiney practice which is undoubtedly older than Buddhism.
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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Walker wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 2:52 am
Lacewing wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:07 pm What kind of mindset believes in and perpetuates ancient imaginings and stories, as if they could possibly be more relevant than what is evident and present today?

Why would the world of the past, and its words and understandings assembled and re-translated/assembled in various books, be the most significant guide adopted by some people living today?

How could humans at that time be thought to have more awareness and understanding than humans thousands of years later?

What kind of a god would need to be represented by such old material?

Is it because the mystery of the old material can be mysteriously used/applied to explain the mystery of existence that humans want to feel they can know and/or have protection from?
Back in the olden days folks had fewer distractions, fewer entertainments. They had pointy heads. Their active minds moved vertically, not horizontally as in the digital age. Back then, without computer screens insomniacs only stared at points of light *. Back when knowledge wasn’t doubling all the time, a missing point of light or a new point of light would be noticed by many non-experts. Other subtle things were undoubtedly noticed in the vertical ascent of active minds deprived of horizontal distractions.

* Reference Buddhist Shiney practice which is undoubtedly older than Buddhism.
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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Walker wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 2:52 am
Lacewing wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:07 pm What kind of mindset believes in and perpetuates ancient imaginings and stories, as if they could possibly be more relevant than what is evident and present today?

Why would the world of the past, and its words and understandings assembled and re-translated/assembled in various books, be the most significant guide adopted by some people living today?

How could humans at that time be thought to have more awareness and understanding than humans thousands of years later?

What kind of a god would need to be represented by such old material?

Is it because the mystery of the old material can be mysteriously used/applied to explain the mystery of existence that humans want to feel they can know and/or have protection from?
Back in the olden days folks had fewer distractions, fewer entertainments. They had pointy heads. Their active minds moved vertically, not horizontally as in the digital age. Back then, without computer screens insomniacs only stared at points of light *. Back when knowledge wasn’t doubling all the time, a missing point of light or a new point of light would be noticed by many non-experts. Other subtle things were undoubtedly noticed in the vertical ascent of active minds deprived of horizontal distractions.

* Reference Buddhist Shiney practice which is undoubtedly older than Buddhism.
You will never know what you know. What you know is known, and that which is known can know nothing.

You are the knowing that cannot be known.

From source to source an endless spring / the never ending story. Pen in hand, fill your boots. This emptyvoid is big enough to hold absolutely everything that can possibly be imagined.

Always be yourself, the real fictional character.


Nothing to see here.

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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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Lacewing wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:07 pm What kind of mindset believes in and perpetuates ancient imaginings and stories, as if they could possibly be more relevant than what is evident and present today?
How do you define "the religious mindset"?
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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henry quirk wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 2:51 am As I say, reason and intuition are marvelous tools. We can infer things with them. Reason and intuition brought me to deism, for example.
Yes, they are...and they lead people to many different outcomes.
henry quirk wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 2:51 amSeems to me we don't merely imagine we can know, but can actually know through direct observation or through inference. The atom was posited well before it was possible to verify, for example
At the same time, much of what most of us "directly observe" is processed through so many human filters and limitations, our "knowing" varies from each other as well as from what may actually be.
henry quirk wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 2:51 am Man is a metaphor maker, a symbol assigner and today's metaphors fall short. Consider the dominant metaphor: man is a machine, no different than the countless other machines flying, crawling, or swimming on Earth. We're told we have no free will, are just brain states not minds, that we're insignificant. Why embrace this as definition? Older thought had room for the Hero's Journey and the Wizard's trials, for spirit and God and mystery, for the solitary and idiosyncratic. Today, there's only room for system and fiber optical cable, for analytics and reduction to constituent parts.
Good description, but surely man can meet such a spiritual challenge without hiding in caves of archaic symbols. :) The heroes and wizards are different now. Perhaps such paths are even more challenging and rewarding because of greater/expanding potential. In many areas of our experience we can see that clinging to the old does not protect us, it just keeps us limited. And no matter what common conditions seem to be in play across humankind, there are always ways to experience other and better than that. To suggest that such a diverse manifestation of continual unfolding/expansion lacks potential, might be an effort to justify individual limitation of potential.

Fascinating when... in one breath, we might claim to be capable of knowing an all-knowing, all-capable creator... and in another breath we might claim creation/existence doesn't have vastly further potential than our own limited notions at any given time. What I've experienced is that there is ALWAYS SO MUCH MORE! If we think we've got it all figured out, we're stuck and/or standing-still. And why would we choose that instead of expanding?

If you want to go on a trip to explore all you can see, such as on a cruise boat sailing throughout some islands/territories you've never been to, you don't sit in the cabin the whole time clinging to what you know. Neither do you expect to already know everything about all that you'll come into contact with. Nor do you believe that nothing else exists beyond that small trip for you to see. And, such a trip could be absolutely thrilling and eye-opening in expanding your world. I think all of life can be like this exploration... based on our state of mind. We don't have to physically move to recognize that there's always more to see from wherever we are.
henry quirk wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 2:51 am
Lacewing wrote:If we want to envision a god/creator, why not imagine it as something much more sensible than what fearful ancients imagined and used to control each other?
The most direct answer: becuz mebbe God is not sumthin' we can apply sensibility to, and perhaps is awful.
Yes, indeed. There is so much that makes absolutely no sense -- and such convoluted notions shouldn't be needed, as that only serves to obscure and distort. Clarity and awareness are not limited to a time or understanding of over 2,000 years ago.
henry quirk wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 2:51 am
Lacewing wrote:If we cannot visualize the best of ourselves, how can we visualize a more evolved god/creator?
If God exists (I believe He does) then we should spend less time visualizin' him as we'd like him to be and more tryin' to blow away that fog so as to see him more clearly.
I see beauty in what you say. Personally, I don't spend time visualizing such a thing at all, and I'm more interested in blowing away fog.
henry quirk wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 2:51 amAnd if He doesn't exist, well, then Reality is barren, man is a monkey, and Willard Motley was right.
Reality is barren? Wow... my reality is anything but that! I guess you find value in thinking "if not this, then this"... for whatever reasons it serves you to think that there could be nothing else. But such thinking really seems to suggest very limited potential. I guess you're having fun with that. :)

Thanks for your good communications.
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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Walker wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 2:52 am Back in the olden days folks had fewer distractions, fewer entertainments. They had pointy heads. Their active minds moved vertically, not horizontally as in the digital age. Back then, without computer screens insomniacs only stared at points of light *. Back when knowledge wasn’t doubling all the time, a missing point of light or a new point of light would be noticed by many non-experts. Other subtle things were undoubtedly noticed in the vertical ascent of active minds deprived of horizontal distractions.

* Reference Buddhist Shiney practice which is undoubtedly older than Buddhism.
Nice description. Seems only reasonable to consider that the potential of humans evolves in all ways/directions, for better and worse. To focus on only the bad now vs. the good then, would not be a full or true picture.
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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attofishpi wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 10:29 am
Lacewing wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:07 pm What kind of mindset believes in and perpetuates ancient imaginings and stories, as if they could possibly be more relevant than what is evident and present today?
How do you define "the religious mindset"?
Other than a mindset that is focused in a religious way, I don't. (Just like any mindset... political, business, whatever.) This thread introduced a focus on religious ideas of a god based on archaic stories. But, of course, religious mindsets can apply to all kinds of beliefs/ideas that are treated religiously.
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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Lacewing wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:07 pm What kind of mindset believes in and perpetuates ancient imaginings and stories, as if they could possibly be more relevant than what is evident and present today?
It is a mindset that, depending upon where and when said mind awakened into life on earth, has been intensely brainwashed into accepting the beliefs of its parents and the society in which it lives. Consider the extreme case of the Yanomami in the Amazonian rainforest, for example....

Image

Furthermore, what exactly is it that is more relevant and evident today, Lacewing?

Are you talking about the concerted effort by materialists to push the notion that the unfathomable order of the universe is a product of the blind and mindless processes of chance (as opposed to something intelligent)?

Or how about the present day promoting of the idiotic MWI theory, where it is implied that all 7.8 billion of us humans, along with the earth, the sun, and the rest of the entire universe may have come into existence a mere 10 seconds ago as a result of a "branching" that occurred from a bear farting in the woods in a parallel universe?

Now I do understand where you are coming from, and this is certainly not meant to be a defense of the mythological nonsense handed down to us from the past,...

...however, do you really expect humans to abandon their core belief in the idea that there surely must be some kind of living intelligence underlying creation and, instead, accept the even greater nonsense offered by the materialists?
Lacewing wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:07 pm Why would the world of the past, and its words and understandings assembled and re-translated/assembled in various books, be the most significant guide adopted by some people living today?
Again, it is no doubt the result of an intense societal brainwashing. That, and the absence of a truly plausible theory as to how and why we and the universe are here.
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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Lacewing wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:07 pm What kind of mindset believes in and perpetuates ancient imaginings and stories, as if they could possibly be more relevant than what is evident and present today?

Why would the world of the past, and its words and understandings assembled and re-translated/assembled in various books, be the most significant guide adopted by some people living today?

How could humans at that time be thought to have more awareness and understanding than humans thousands of years later?

What kind of a god would need to be represented by such old material?

Is it because the mystery of the old material can be mysteriously used/applied to explain the mystery of existence that humans want to feel they can know and/or have protection from?
It irks me when I watch documentaries that speak of the various 'gods' of the ancients because I do NOT believe the original thinkers thought in terms of religion. They were MORE likely to be LESS 'religious' in the past to me, even though the terms that come down to us make them appear as less rational than we are today.

Egyptian temples, for instance, were NOT about 'religion' but were means of identifying formal ownership claims by use of mapping idols (markers for property claim) to particular tribes. The temples were more like accounting places where each 'priest' represented the officiator of each tribe. They used UNIQUE symbols for each tribe as means to officially 'prove' claims upon agricultural settlements at a time when tribes were in only a partial settled stage of evolution. That is, much of the tribes initially still wandered by following seasonal hunting and gathering according to where the cattle wandered and where particular places for gathering naturally grown crops existed.

But as people begun to notice relationships between seeding and learned how to domesticate animals, they begun to settle. For agriculture, the tribes would only visit the 'properties' they seeded at specific times of the year; they would return for harvest.

However, when competing tribes or rogue rejects of them begun to notice these plots as vacant, theft or possible misinterpreted claims became more prominent. The tribes would have had to at some point agreed to convene to resolve this. This temporary meeting places were the evolutionary origin for what has now become 'temples' [See the 'temp' root there. That is significant.]

This demonstrates the SECULAR need for certain things that eventually DEVOLVED in time to become 'religious' places. This example only touches the surface of the issue. But the terms used to describe things would also relate to other things they knew in nature. The tribes of specialties may, for instance, have used their particular skill in hunting specific animals, of which they might then be symbolized as though 'gods'. These were identifying features and means of easy reference in the early days of evolving city settlements.

There is also an interest by many established religions that HAVE evolved to today that desire to trivialize the prior societies they actually owe their own religious origins to. By destroying, hiding, or making the prior societies seem less rational and more 'religiously weird' is a political function that still happens to this day when we tear down statues, symbols, and restrict or taboo language expression. [Political correctness, for example, that deny old labels of prior people's behaviors they now interpret as derogatory.]

I have my own theories regarding such origins that show how much of religion of the past was merely 'secular' and only accidentally 'religious'. In time, distortions have turned what evidence we have of these times by contemporary political powers that utilize censorship measures that demand FAITH of its citizens. This evolves to become religion.

The 'religious' mindset likely existed the same throughout time and are based most likely on emotional reflection about matters unclear or misunderstood by less intellectually tolerant people, of whom would always make up the majority. If some intellectual discovered something, the vast majority would be as impatient children wanting simple explanations that 'summarized' things in as few sentences as possible rather than expend the necessary investment in actually understanding the original thinkers.

If some intellectual noticed a pattern in the stars that indicated where some place is or predicted the beginning of the rainy season, for instance, instead of bothering to try to explain this to impatient listeners, it is simply easier to say, "I read it from the stars." And the mystery of it become MORE emotionally interesting.

Stories that might have once been used to aide in memorizing terms or describe their origins, would turn into literal interpretations by the next generations until the original meanings were lost. These become 'religious' myths in time.

Note that I think the same thing still happens. In some future, todays quantum physics explanations and the scientists originally discovering them will likely devolve into a future religion. It just needs time, and ...destruction of the details that are less interesting to our emotional preference for entertainment over the realities.

P.S. The "big bang" is a perfect example of this irrational 'mindset'! While it holds certain value, its persistence to be accepted over a "Steady State" version to me is proof of our own present devolution into religious thinking.
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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seeds wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 8:33 pm
Lacewing wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:07 pm What kind of mindset believes in and perpetuates ancient imaginings and stories, as if they could possibly be more relevant than what is evident and present today?
It is a mindset that, depending upon where and when said mind awakened into life on earth, has been intensely brainwashed into accepting the beliefs of its parents and the society in which it lives. Consider the extreme case of the Yanomami in the Amazonian rainforest, for example....
Yes, good point.
seeds wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 8:33 pmwhat exactly is it that is more relevant and evident today, Lacewing?
It seems to me that the evolution of human culture and awareness naturally offers more potential to consider.
seeds wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 8:33 pm Now I do understand where you are coming from, and this is certainly not meant to be a defense of the mythological nonsense handed down to us from the past,...

...however, do you really expect humans to abandon their core belief in the idea that there surely must be some kind of living intelligence underlying creation and, instead, accept the even greater nonsense offered by the materialists?
No, I don't expect it. It seems that diverse spiritual beliefs can evolve along with humans, however, without losing value -- and even expanding in value. Why wouldn't that be reasonably so -- and why wouldn't we contemplate it? It is the positions of thousands of years ago that seem senseless when adopted literally and rigidly today, and I wonder how/why some people can continue to perpetuate it?
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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Lacewing wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 4:48 pm
attofishpi wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 10:29 am
Lacewing wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:07 pm What kind of mindset believes in and perpetuates ancient imaginings and stories, as if they could possibly be more relevant than what is evident and present today?
How do you define "the religious mindset"?
Other than a mindset that is focused in a religious way, I don't. (Just like any mindset... political, business, whatever.) This thread introduced a focus on religious ideas of a god based on archaic stories. But, of course, religious mindsets can apply to all kinds of beliefs/ideas that are treated religiously.
For me, this 'archaic sory" was a grounding, and certainly this God entity, and any sages would convolute its message to suit the archaic ancient cultures at the time. Makes sense no?
Lacewing wrote:seems to me that the [evolution of human culture and awareness naturally offers more potential to consider
I might juat agree with your here depending on the context of what your are suggesting, could u provide an example?
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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Lacewing, what if it's the natural order of the universe to transcend temporal time and remember eternity as and through material creation?

What if the mind that appears as and through the temporal hominoid brain really is the 'eternal' remembering it's eternal source?

Why does this religious mindset still persist today if there was no eternity to ponder. And why is the mind able to ponder it's own reality at all? maybe the truth is determined to out, in that the living light of absolute truth really has absolutely nowhere to hide. It's always right here, always shining.

What if, since the dawn of this conceptual mind unique to human brain, the light of truth has been flowering and unfolding in every which way possible, be it in form, prose or poetry. Maybe human story telling and writing is a natural function of a universe attempting to understand it's reality..IDK.. but could be possible, and maybe the mind is really onto something here, and why not, why waste time pondering for centuries and centuries at all if the human species is really just a one off, never to be repeated, totally random set of replicating molecules set in motion by some chaotic crude forces blindly swirling around making noisy drama and carnage for absolutely no reason or purpose whatsoever. IDK :?

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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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Lacewing wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:07 pm What kind of mindset believes in and perpetuates ancient imaginings and stories, as if they could possibly be more relevant than what is evident and present today?

Why would the world of the past, and its words and understandings assembled and re-translated/assembled in various books, be the most significant guide adopted by some people living today?

How could humans at that time be thought to have more awareness and understanding than humans thousands of years later?

What kind of a god would need to be represented by such old material?

Is it because the mystery of the old material can be mysteriously used/applied to explain the mystery of existence that humans want to feel they can know and/or have protection from?
Lacewing...What if there is no past. What if there is only the eternal present?

What if causality, choice and time are the finite mind trying to make sense of eternity? What if we don't ever experience time at all?

I am always trying to understand the religious mindset - nonduality for me, is the great pointer, pointing one to one's original source.
Which is HERE and can never not be here. SOURCE can never be negated.

Contrary to popular belief, nondualists are no different to religious believers, they are both pointing to the same thing. And that Nondualists are not nihilistic, how could they be, when what nonduality points to is the eternal present/presence, this always and ever empty fullness.

What if all our consciousnesses, the apparent individual temporal expressions of infinite being itself, sits in the background of each of our brain's and watches life happen to each of us all at once ?

Is it possible for the mind to be able to ponder it's own eternal being? I think it is, as I've already spoken to Immanuel Can about how I personally, have often felt as though I have always existed. Now why would I think something like that?

Maybe we are the eternal light watching our finite self (shadows) forever appear and disappear - which is just another meaning for conscious and unconscious, or sleep or awake, or forgetting and remembering?

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