Understanding the religious mindset

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Lacewing
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by Lacewing »

henry quirk wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:31 am Why did you project all of this stupid crap? Again, more of your stupid projection. And it's dishonest, Henry. You don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Not projection; just honest observation (with a touch of bile). I don't expect you to agree with it.
Your "honest observation" is full of your own crap.
henry quirk wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:31 am 2,000 years isn't enough time to evaluate?

I'm no Christian. 2000 years is no benchmark for me. Half a million years is more accurate. And, in a half a million years we've come far.
As if you know anything about it. :lol:
henry quirk wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:31 am you can't fathom any concept of a Creator that isn't mired in theism.
I don't believe in any creator that is mired in limited human definitions and personifications. I can definitely fathom a creative force of which all is part of. The idea of something "separate" and hierarchical is a human concept based on ego.
henry quirk wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:31 am The things you think don't add up are just childish nonsense to me.
Well, that's strange because they're valid questions that any truth-seeker might ask. But, you're clearly intent on slapping down anything I say in your usual manner.
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Lacewing
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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Belinda to Henry wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:28 am There are various ways of appreciating ancient myths , ancient moral codes, and ancient sacred rituals.

I guess what Lacewing means is that we now have no need to confuse myths with history and science in general. If so, I agree.
Yes. Thank you, Belinda. Henry seemingly wants to create ways to disagree and distort what I say. His ego (being "right" and cocky) is more important to him than reasonable discussion.
Belinda to Henry wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:28 am I doubt if Lacewing meant that there is no wisdom at all in ancient myths, moral codes, and sacred rituals.
Correct. I see wisdom and value in all of these. What I try to challenge and question are any claims that seem founded on separation and superiority, and any rigid, narrow-minded, or self-serving agendas -- because any of that seems obviously man-made and distorted. I try to distinguish ego from the divine. I don't like seeing the divine presented or manipulated for anyone's separatist agenda. When I have my own greatest clarity, I see the creative force and beauty everywhere. The rest of the time, I see it in most places. :)
Belinda to Henry wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:28 am There is wisdom in ancient moral codes, myths, and sacred rituals that can aid peace and prosperity at this present time.
Absolutely! At the same time, we don't have to only look back... because there is much right here, right now... that we can perhaps discern and continue exploring and understanding with our present awareness. If we think that everything of value is of another time, then I think we're really missing the glory of now. :D
gaffo
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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Lacewing wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:31 am
gaffo wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:16 pm...
Hey, instead of spewing your random drunken off-topic thoughts in this thread, maybe you could start your own topic and title it Drunken Blathering, for those types of discussions? :wink:
thanks for your post - it shows your character. i now know it better than i did before. now i know to ignore anything you have to say - prior i did read your posts, but now i know your are petty and anything you have to say is not worth my time nor my character to waste time upon.

see ya later.
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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henry quirk wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:48 pm That illogical cornerstone of belief enables people to create all kinds of fabrications for:
> What they believe or judge god supposedly is and isn't associated with.
> How they think the world "should be" instead.


How is the atheist who pines for an unrealistic utopia, who actually believes such a thing is possible, any different?

Substitute Science for God and the result is the same.

The same narrow thinkin', the same fearfulness about those with a different viewpoint, the same hostilities, the same slavish devotion to whatever passes as gospel, the same elevation of men into seers and holy men and prophets.

No, these things are not confined to the religious.

indeed so! i see fools - religous or atheists worshing smart phones - staring at "tech" while driving/walking etc......... Americans (and othr 1st world nations) lost religion 60 yrs ago and replaced it with consumerism, and now the last 15 yrs with tech. they worship thier phones as gods.

pathetic.

but true
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Lacewing
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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gaffo wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:01 am now i know to ignore anything you have to say
Oh, boo hoo.
gaffo wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:01 amnow i know your are petty and anything you have to say is not worth my time nor my character to waste time upon.
I already knew that about you.
Walker
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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Although, given his political views gaffo could be a professor slumming incognito (conditions are ripe for the possibility), I suppose it’s twue, so twue that identity … and if you’ll tolerate another digression … although what folks do and say comprise the real as opposed to imagined identity* (that imagined identity being the one that so often gets so vociferously** defended), in all fairness to the totality of each brief flame, no one should be judged by their last action or word, which theoretically could be any action or word.

* which begs the philosophical question, are we more than the doings and the sayings?
** may as well keep a hand in words
Walker
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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Lacewing wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 4:33 pm
Oakley wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:45 pm
Lacewing wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:07 pmWhat kind of mindset believes in and perpetuates ancient imaginings and stories...
Well, for starters, there is no religious mindset.
In your preferred view, perhaps.
Oakley wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:45 pm There are instead billions of people over thousands of years in countless denominations, and a near infinite number of different ways one can relate to where ever one finds oneself in that vast cultural universe.
There are also billions of people with all kinds of mindsets, and some who have a religious mindset. It's not an outrageous concept... except for some who might feel defensive, apparently... and probably because they have a religious mindset.
Trungpa Rinpoche transmitted some clear insights about the corruption of the religious mindset with an address called, "spiritual materialism."
It does appear that many radical and sometimes hostile atheists do consider religion to be a corruption of spirituality just because folks ain't saints, which is a rather narrow and uncomprehending view of the foibles that spice up human nature, although harsh and narrow attitudes towards religious folks does tend to heighten awareness, e.g., Israel.

Speaking of religious mindset, in the olden days the citizens of Tibet had such a religious mindset that 10% of the GDP supported the monasteries, most of which the secular Chinese government burned down, in the process of committing brutal atrocities upon the Tibetans.
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Lacewing
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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Walker wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:27 pm Trungpa Rinpoche transmitted some clear insights about the corruption of the religious mindset with an address called, "spiritual materialism."
Makes sense.
Walker wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:27 pm
It does appear that many radical and sometimes hostile atheists do consider religion to be a corruption of spirituality just because folks ain't saints
People don't have to be radical or hostile to see religious corruption of spirituality. Nor is it only because "folks ain't saints". There are many reasons why religion can be viewed poorly.

If people wouldn't get so defensive, and would look at uncomfortable truths, maybe the toxic stuff could be set aside, and the good qualities could have more effect.
Last edited by Lacewing on Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Walker
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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Wiki has tolerable entry on the address:

Quote:

"Spiritual materialism is a term coined by Chögyam Trungpa in his book Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism. The book is a compendium of his talks explaining Buddhism given while opening the Karma Dzong meditation center in Boulder, Colorado. He expands on the concept in later seminars that became books such as Work, Sex, Money. He uses the term to describe mistakes spiritual seekers commit which turn the pursuit of spirituality into an ego building and confusion creating endeavor, based on the idea that ego development is counter to spiritual progress.[1]

"Conventionally, it is used to describe capitalist and spiritual narcissism, commercial efforts such as "new age" bookstores and wealthy lecturers on spirituality; it might also mean the attempt to build up a list of credentials or accumulate teachings in order to present oneself as a more realized or holy person.[2] Author Jorge Ferrer equates the terms "Spiritual materialism" and "Spiritual Narcissism",[1] though others draw a distinction, that spiritual narcissism is believing that one deserves love and respect[3] or is better than another[4] because one has accumulated spiritual training instead of the belief that accumulating training will bring an end to suffering."
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Lacewing
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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Walker wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:44 pm "He uses the term to describe mistakes spiritual seekers commit which turn the pursuit of spirituality into an ego building"
This is true and very obvious of many who have been on this forum. Regardless of the countless particulars or "stories" of their religious mindset, they have one thing in common: they claim that they know divine truth and that others don't. That is their primary focus, clearly in service to their ego, for which they'll do/say almost anything to maintain, no matter how distorted or dishonest or blind. Meanwhile, all the other spiritual beings are watching them. :)
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RCSaunders
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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Lacewing wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 2:04 pm
Walker wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:44 pm "He uses the term to describe mistakes spiritual seekers commit which turn the pursuit of spirituality into an ego building"
This is true and very obvious of many who have been on this forum. Regardless of the countless particulars or "stories" of their religious mindset, they have one thing in common: they claim that they know divine truth and that others don't. That is their primary focus, clearly in service to their ego, for which they'll do/say almost anything to maintain, no matter how distorted or dishonest or blind. Meanwhile, all the other spiritual beings are watching them. :)
What is an. "ego?" Is there something intrinsically, "bad," about it?

If people are going to be accused of doing things for the sake of, whatever it is you are calling, "ego," as though it were some kind of heinous crime, it should be easy to explain exactly what is so bad about the evil thing, but nobody actually ever says what it is.
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henry quirk
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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Lacewing wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 2:04 pm Regardless of the countless particulars or "stories" of their religious mindset, they have one thing in common: they claim that they know divine truth and that others don't.
Yep.

From up-thread...

(Lace:) That illogical cornerstone of belief enables people to create all kinds of fabrications for:
> What they believe or judge god supposedly is and isn't associated with.
> How they think the world "should be" instead.


(Me:) How is the *atheist who pines for an unrealistic utopia, who actually believes such a thing is possible, any different?

Substitute **Science for God and the result is the same.

The same narrow thinkin', the same fearfulness about those with a different viewpoint, the same hostilities, the same slavish devotion to whatever passes as gospel, the same elevation of men into seers and holy men and prophets.

No, these things are not confined to the religious.




*or crystal-rubber

**or spirituality
Walker
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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RCSaunders wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 3:34 pm
Lacewing wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 2:04 pm
Walker wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:44 pm "He uses the term to describe mistakes spiritual seekers commit which turn the pursuit of spirituality into an ego building"
This is true and very obvious of many who have been on this forum. Regardless of the countless particulars or "stories" of their religious mindset, they have one thing in common: they claim that they know divine truth and that others don't. That is their primary focus, clearly in service to their ego, for which they'll do/say almost anything to maintain, no matter how distorted or dishonest or blind. Meanwhile, all the other spiritual beings are watching them. :)
What is an. "ego?" Is there something intrinsically, "bad," about it?

If people are going to be accused of doing things for the sake of, whatever it is you are calling, "ego," as though it were some kind of heinous crime, it should be easy to explain exactly what is so bad about the evil thing, but nobody actually ever says what it is.
In Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism, Trugpa Rinpoche says, “Therefore, in dealing with this subject we are not condemning or attempting to eliminate our ego-psychology; we are purely acknowledging it, seeing it as it is. In fact, the understanding of ego is the foundation of Buddhism. So let us look at how ego develops.”
Walker
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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Lacewing wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 2:04 pm
Walker wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:44 pm "He uses the term to describe mistakes spiritual seekers commit which turn the pursuit of spirituality into an ego building"
This is true and very obvious of many who have been on this forum. Regardless of the countless particulars or "stories" of their religious mindset, they have one thing in common: they claim that they know divine truth and that others don't. That is their primary focus, clearly in service to their ego, for which they'll do/say almost anything to maintain, no matter how distorted or dishonest or blind. Meanwhile, all the other spiritual beings are watching them. :)
I do understand your point, however, I have also observed that when the view of a particular religion such as Christianity is vigorously and rationally well-presented, such as so often is the case in these parts, then it is not necessarily incumbent upon the presenter to also present the atheist's view, since of course that would merely be an exercise in sophistry. I don't see much of ego in play in the presentation of Christianity, but maybe that's just me ... what you see could just be you.
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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Walker wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 7:25 pm In Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism, Trugpa Rinpoche says, “Therefore, in dealing with this subject we are not condemning or attempting to eliminate our ego-psychology; we are purely acknowledging it, seeing it as it is. In fact, the understanding of ego is the foundation of Buddhism. So let us look at how ego develops.”
Well, that's a hoot! This Trugpa Rinpoche, wooga booga guru, learned is mystic insight from Freud? He invented the word.

...and that does not say what ego is, because no one who uses that word knows what they mean by it. WHAT IS THE EGO?
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