Understanding the religious mindset

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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seeds
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by seeds »

Lacewing wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 4:43 pm
Excellent post, Lacewing. And I'm certain that neither of us has any doubt about the fact that what we are talking about in this conversation is based on pure speculation.

So with that being said, how about I begin by first laying-out what we both think the word "soul" means.

You defined it as this...
Lacewing wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 4:43 pm I guess I just think of it as energy. I don't think anything is unchanging, not even a soul. So I don't have this idea that it's a static thing. I do think energy can affect things, and be experienced.
Okay then, in contrast to that, I define the human soul as being an embryonic replication of the "SOUL" of the Creator of this universe (i.e., a replication of the soul of God), with each soul possessing the inherent potential of being able to create a universe out of the living fabric of its very own being....

...(To which I suggest that if anyone is curious as to what the fundamental makeup of God might be, then all you have to do is look within yourself, for you are carrying around a model of it right within your own skull. See illustration below.)

Clearly, I'm a huge fan of the motto:

"Go Big or Go Home" :D
seeds wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 6:50 pm (other than that pestering gnat of a voice that keeps reminding me of all of the stupid, and hurtful, and embarrassing things I've done throughout my life :D)...
Lacewing wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 4:43 pm I have had one of those. It doesn't pester me much anymore. Maybe because I do tend to live in the moment, and I feel a lot of love/acceptance/gratitude most of the time. Maybe that in combination with the way my philosophy and perspectives have evolved to make sense of things. I see: it's all perfect as it is.
Well, I envy you for reaching a point where you can ignore the "gnat." And it's not that it's relentless, it's just that, like many other people, I occasionally find myself wishing that I could go back in time and make corrections.

Nevertheless, I do agree with your assertion that the universe is indeed "perfect"...

...(as in the "perfect illusion" that fools many [sleepwalking] humans into thinking that this might be all there is to life).
Lacewing wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 4:43 pm When I heard this idea years ago, of each person being a collection of souls, it somehow seemed to make sense. But I haven't thought a whole lot about it, rather, I've just noticed some things from time to time. In myself, I've seen a lot of different capability... so many things (for example, angel, devil, peacemaker, warrior, business woman, hippy, sharing partner, independent trailblazer, etc.). It's like a whole tribe aligned on the same path! :lol:
Sure, you are all of those things and more.

However, why not see that as simply being the multifarious traits of your own singular soul? - kind of like how the multiple spirit entities in Hinduism are, in truth, just the inherent aspects of the singular soul of Brahman....

...(Of which, again, I personally believe we are the "embryonic" replications of, as per my outrageous definition of what our souls truly are.)
Lacewing wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 4:43 pm It would be necessary for the collective to feel unified as an "I/me", so that they wouldn't fight amongst themselves too much. The human provides the appearance of a single/separate individual, and the ego can be used to establish a singular identity. Maybe schizophrenic experiences could be due to a lack of unity in the collective?
That schizophrenia reference is interesting. It reminds me of that book titled: "Sybil: The True Story of a Woman Possessed by 16 Separate Personalities." (Though, in her case, the illness is called: "Dissociative Identity Disorder.")

However, I'm still drawn back to that question I asked you earlier regarding the issue of which member of the collective controls that infinitely malleable matrix of mental imaging energy that I see when I look inward?

As I noted earlier, when I look into the subjective arena of my mind, the only thing I am aware of is, again, that singular "Brahman-like" entity (my "I am-ness") who can willfully grasp that mental imaging energy and shape it into absolutely anything it desires.

And that is something that I have depicted in one of my oft-used illustrations...

Image

And my point is that the only situation I can think of where there would never be any conflicts arising over what gets created out of that imaging substance, is if each and every soul possessed their own personal matrix of mental imaging energy within the context of their own separate minds.

And that seems to be precisely the way the human soul is structured - as a singular entity who is the lord and master of its own closed and autonomous dimension of reality in the form of a mind.

Anyway, it is painfully obvious that I have blathered on long enough for now, so it's back to you, hippy girl. :D

(P.S., I apologize for luring you so far away from your thread topic, but I just couldn't resist addressing your "collective of souls" comment.)
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by henry quirk »

seeds wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 5:29 pm
henry quirk wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 12:00 am
seeds wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 6:50 pm how about you give a quick description of what you think a "soul" actually is?
My two cents...

Information, software, distinct from hardware.

Man, I reckon, is a composite being: spirit or soul and body; software & hardware; information and substance: two distinctly different things, each utterly dependent on the other.
That's a good analogy, henry. I like that.
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by attofishpi »

henry quirk wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 7:16 pm
seeds wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 5:29 pm
henry quirk wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 12:00 am


My two cents...

Information, software, distinct from hardware.

Man, I reckon, is a composite being: spirit or soul and body; software & hardware; information and substance: two distinctly different things, each utterly dependent on the other.
That's a good analogy, henry. I like that.
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My two Scents would be:-
1. If not physical - then akin to a pointer within RAM of a computer program - where your brain is the RAM - matter.
2. If physical - then certain attributes of who you 'were' via a small subset - perhaps of brain matter being transferred.
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by henry quirk »

attofishpi wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 11:24 am
henry quirk wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 7:16 pm
seeds wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 5:29 pm
That's a good analogy, henry. I like that.
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My two Scents would be:-
1. If not physical - then akin to a pointer within RAM of a computer program - where your brain is the RAM - matter.
2. If physical - then certain attributes of who you 'were' via a small subset - perhaps of brain matter being transferred.

https://mindmatters.ai/2020/02/why-pion ... the-brain/

I've posted this piece a few times in various, relevant, threads. It fits here too, I think.
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by attofishpi »

henry quirk wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 1:59 pm
attofishpi wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 11:24 am
henry quirk wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 7:16 pm

👍
My two Scents would be:-
1. If not physical - then akin to a pointer within RAM of a computer program - where your brain is the RAM - matter.
2. If physical - then certain attributes of who you 'were' via a small subset - perhaps of brain matter being transferred.

https://mindmatters.ai/2020/02/why-pion ... the-brain/

I've posted this piece a few times in various, relevant, threads. It fits here too, I think.
:idea:
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by Lacewing »

seeds wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 5:32 pm I suggest that if anyone is curious as to what the fundamental makeup of God might be, then all you have to do is look within yourself, for you are carrying around a model of it right within your own skull.
Agreed.

And... I think it makes sense that any creative force/energy is manifested through ALL (humans and everything else). The idea of any separation between God and humans (or between God and anything) seems based on very simple human models of division and hierarchies.

Why would any vastly creative force be modeled or limited as such? I think the stories that suggest union with God will happen after death are because humans don't realize/accept the creative force that is PRESENT! It is easier for humans to make up stories about how everything must be (is) based on human models. And such things are our own little god-like creations. We write it down and say it is so. We create religions and statues and costumes. It's all rather theatrical and fantastic. And then we don't see anything beyond those creations that we tie our identities and all of our meaning to.
seeds wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 5:32 pmClearly, I'm a huge fan of the motto:

"Go Big or Go Home"
:D There's so much potential. Why be limited to small models?
seeds wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 5:32 pm I do agree with your assertion that the universe is indeed "perfect"...

...(as in the "perfect illusion" that fools many [sleepwalking] humans into thinking that this might be all there is to life).
That too.

I also think about it this way: If a creative flow (or god) is not defined/limited by human ideas of need and fear and desire, (etc.) -- and there is no such thing as separation or end -- then the brilliance of what flows and unfolds does appear to be perfect. Because who is there to judge it otherwise, aside from those human notions?
seeds wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 5:32 pm Sure, you are all of those things and more.

However, why not see that as simply being the multifarious traits of your own singular soul? - kind of like how the multiple spirit entities in Hinduism are, in truth, just the inherent aspects of the singular soul of Brahman....
It could be that! I don't know. I'm just considering that humans might not be as individual as they think they are.
seeds wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 5:32 pm I'm still drawn back to that question I asked you earlier regarding the issue of which member of the collective controls that infinitely malleable matrix of mental imaging energy that I see when I look inward?
It's hard to frame and describe. The collective is actually one. The ocean is often a good example. The ocean of drops combine and move together -- but they can be separated out too, in various forms and quantities, and re-combine, as well. If we add in an idea of consciousness within those drops, how does that work? Does it change anything?
seeds wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 5:32 pmthe only situation I can think of where there would never be any conflicts arising over what gets created out of that imaging substance, is if each and every soul possessed their own personal matrix of mental imaging energy within the context of their own separate minds.
Hmm. Well, that' interesting. I don't know. I guess it seems to me that the only conflict results from human ideas of separation -- whereas oneness knows and coordinates with itself. :)
seeds wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 5:32 pmAnd that seems to be precisely the way the human soul is structured - as a singular entity who is the lord and master of its own closed and autonomous dimension of reality in the form of a mind.
Well, it's certainly entertaining!

When I look at all I'm surrounded by in this life... all the paths I've taken... some beautiful beyond description... some horrific but I somehow survived them -- it has been such an amazing journey/display (whatever it is) -- and I just feel gratitude and openness to be part of it rather than feeling separate from it. I am one with my animal companions... I am one with the land and nature... I am one with the people around me (although sometimes that's a little more challenging to experience :lol: ). Oneness feels more in-tune... and seems to have more perfect potential.
seeds wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 5:32 pm I apologize for luring you so far away from your thread topic, but I just couldn't resist addressing your "collective of souls" comment.)
Are you kidding? This has been the most enjoyable discussion I've had in awhile! And I break the rules all the time... in regard to thread topics and all sorts of other things. That's where the juicy good stuff is. :D
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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Don't bother getting a room. Just inter_face.
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

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attofishpi wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 5:18 pm Don't bother getting a room. Just inter_face.
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 4:12 am
Oh, I wish I could say so much of myself. But the truth is that very little of either quality is intrinsic to me. No, I'm much better for knowing Christ, and I'm sure everybody who knows me thinks the same. No harm in admitting that: it's the truth. Part of being a Christian is seeing oneself for what one is, and stopping the games we play with ourselves when we try to make excuses for our own character faults.
I agree fully - and agree that Christianity promote Humility - genreally (there are other tings i have problems with - see beloow - all in hell never get out even when they repent from there).

I mut take you at your word that you were not Humble prior to your cnversion - so you becomeing a Christian has made you a better person. i an gald for that because i like the person you are today - i've always liked your posts herer - maybe i would not like your former self prior to your conversion?

I thank you for being honest about yourelf - if willing i'd like to know more about your chaacter prior to being saved - not that i am looking for the same - i think i am fine as an athiest - but just wondering about you - you state you were a leser person per your chaacter and just curious as to what type of person you wre prior.

none of my busines though - in nkow - just asking. - i'm too lazy to corect spelloing above BTW. you can figure it out.

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 4:12 am If you ask almost anyone, from upstanding citizen to felon, whether or not they are a good person, almost all will say, "Sure." They might be murderers, but they'll still say the same thing. We're not really very honest with ourselves most of the time, and we keep our finger on the scales we use to weigh ourselves, I'm afraid. That's just how human nature tends to operate.
Absolutely - you are tlaking about rationalization - "well he sesirved it" - when in fact he did not, and you just had a bad day and took it out on him. Some folks are clearly lost in elf knowledge - others deep down know they are lying to themeevles and others - but its easy to play a coward vs faceing yourelf to ward self blame - so rationalize and blaime other - not sure of the percentage of self deciaves and truely self lost though/

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 4:12 am
Well, there's nobody in Hell who doesn't chosen it.

Thats bullshit i've not chosen Hell - I just need proof that a God or God exist - and pr emirisism I've not seen their faces before me. so to date since they do not sow temselves to me i assuem they are not.

if in the next life - like in your Hell - I am "still alvie" - i will convert to your Faith - or whatever other faith offered that apears in my life after my deth in Sheol/Hell?Hedi - your book claims that then it will be too late - then why make man an immortal soul with 99.9999 percet of it not on Earth and only the 0.0000000001 part that counts for conversion to salvation?

seems like a petty religion - one that denies savation from Hell - where all born before Christ are - adn most born after him have gone and are going.

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 4:12 am And there's nobody in heaven who hasn't chosen that, either.
"chosen" you say that like its fix in stone - if so then you saying your God makes immortal souls that live 99.9999999 of the time after their deaths - no here on earth - and so only the 0.000001 part as freewill to be aved by action and intent. Can the Souls in Heaven sin? - if not do they lack freewill? can the souls in Hell repent and do good? if not do they lack freewil? does a God of Love create immortal souls that are only robots 99.9999999999999 of thier existiance? or does a God of love cast down souls in Heaven that sin - to Hell - and allow savation to souls in Hell that repent to go to Heaven?


your book is clear - upon dath we all become robts and souls without freewill - so i am stuck in Hell forever and your in Heaven. so what the point in making us immortal? - i see no love in this at all.

only pointlessnes.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 4:12 am So either way, we get what we choose. And from that perspective, that seems quite fair.

no, we get what your god choose. when i see myself still alive in the belly of Hell - I will except your Christ - and your god will still make me sit there forever in Hell.

that is not fair Sir.

thanks for reply -so you did not bother to liten to the whole radiodrama nad have no opinion on the nature of Ben Eliazar.

dissapointed - i wanted your view - oh well ;-(.
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by gaffo »

seeds wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 6:21 pm
attofishpi wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 3:42 am Sober atto doesn't care too much dealing with what drunk atto had to say.
Well, in that case, perhaps sober atto (Jekyll) could get his computer equipped with some kind of breathalyzer apparatus that can prevent drunk atto (Mr. Hyde) from logging on to PN....

...(Though I suppose that is a useless suggestion, seeing how by his own admission, sober atto doesn't seem to even care about the damage that drunk atto causes.)
attofishpi wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 3:42 am Since being told a few things about my previous life, I have often wondered how many lifetimes I go back - and when my soul first came into existence.
Yes, even Buddha is famous for his alleged recollection of a large number of prior human incarnations. Indeed, he is said to have recounted "...almost 554 past life stories..." - Wiki.

With that in mind, the following point might be a little difficult to visualize, but I suggest that one of the main problems with reincarnation is that most of its proponents (again, even the Buddha) usually proclaim (or assume) that very little time elapses between their deaths and rebirths into new human bodies on earth.

However, according to Wiki [bracketed interjections mine]...
Wiki wrote: It took over 2 million years of human prehistory and history for the world's population to reach 1 billion [allegedly in 1804], and only 200 years more to reach 7 billion [allegedly sometime around 2012].
That means that in the year 1804 (a mere 217 years ago) there were at least 6 billion human souls "waiting in the wings," so to speak, for access to a human body....

...(And that isn't even taking into account the potential doubling of the human population that could possibly take place within the next hundred years.)

So the question is, why would you, or the Buddha, or anyone else be allowed to hog-up bodies in a huge number of consecutively occurring births when so many other souls need one in order to advance in their spiritual status?

Well, one of the logical ways to get around that problem is to realize that vast numbers of un-incarnate souls aren't actually "waiting in the wings" for a body to become available, but are in fact newly formed when a human is born.

Again, reincarnation is a very problematic (if not utterly false) concept.
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interesting human population stats tanks for that.

its my understanding that reincarnation - at least for Hindus and Jains (I asume Buddists too?) - is that it includes all of the animal kindom - so a worm a million yrs ago though right action and deed can move up to a human eventually - after millions of lives - and vise versa. so the pop of humans is not relivant to reinincarnation.

for relivance you would have to know the populatios of all animals on earth since 1/2 billion yr ago - and to today and see if it is a 1 to 1 count.

2-cent.
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by gaffo »

henry quirk wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 12:00 am how about you give a quick description of what you think a "soul" actually is?

My two cents...

Information, software, distinct from hardware.

Man, I reckon, is a composite being: spirit or soul and body; software & hardware; information and substance: two distinctly different things, each utterly dependent on the other.
right now
for me, since i am a Solipsist i only affirm my consciousness right now/ when/if i die - and i am still conscious "in the next life" then i still have/am a soul - at that particular time


as for physical reality (all is within my head literally)- that cannot be proven to me and i take it on faith to function in the world - i do not take it as Truth.

just as i take your existance upon faith and not Truth - either way I'm just talking to myself, whether you exist are not (from my perspective - whici is the only perspective i can have).

of coure if you exist you are fixed into the same prepective and have no way of knowing i exist and instead i could just be you talking to yourself.

and if you don't exist - then i just like posting to myself and talkking toyself and creating a illusionary world for my own ammusment not now to me currentlly as to why so.

clearly i must be mad.
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by gaffo »

attofishpi wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 11:24 am
henry quirk wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 7:16 pm
seeds wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 5:29 pm
That's a good analogy, henry. I like that.
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My two Scents would be:-
1. If not physical - then akin to a pointer within RAM of a computer program - where your brain is the RAM - matter.
2. If physical - then certain attributes of who you 'were' via a small subset - perhaps of brain matter being transferred.
the word "mind" would be more apt thaN brain in #1 above - brain is a physical organ.
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 8:41 pm if willing i'd like to know more about your chaacter prior to being saved
Very pushy. Hyper-competitive. Aggressive. And very indifferent to other people, as well as being very negative in general.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 4:12 am If you ask almost anyone, from upstanding citizen to felon, whether or not they are a good person, almost all will say, "Sure." They might be murderers, but they'll still say the same thing. We're not really very honest with ourselves most of the time, and we keep our finger on the scales we use to weigh ourselves, I'm afraid. That's just how human nature tends to operate.
Absolutely - you are tlaking about rationalization

Yes. We all rationalize. We say, "Well, okay, maybe I did do X, Y or Z, and yeah, if other people did those things, I'd be upset. Maybe I'd even call them evil. But in my case, it was justified by circumstances A, B, and C: so I'm really a good guy."

Of course, nobody appointed us as our own judge. But we arrogate that status to ourselves, and then think we've proved we're fine.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 4:12 am Well, there's nobody in Hell who doesn't chosen it.
Thats bullshit i've not chosen Hell - I just need proof that a God or God exist

The proof exists. But lots of people don't want to consider it proof at all. Here's what Romans says about that:

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their reasonings, and their senseless hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools..." (Romans 1)
if in the next life - like in your Hell - I am "still alvie" - i will convert to your Faith
Hebrews 9:27 says," it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment" That's what God tells us about that. The chance to decide has already been given. There's no infinite license on disbelief.
why make man an immortal soul with 99.9999 percet of it not on Earth and only the 0.0000000001 part that counts for conversion to salvation?
Because free will is necessary for relationship. If you don't have any chance to choose not-God, then there's no sense in which you can freely choose God either. You would be doomed to be a slave, a robot, and automaton, were it not that God gives you freedom. But sin is not something that God can just wink at...not and be a just God. So sooner or later, a truly just God must judge, and judge with absolute fairness and truth. And sooner or later, we have to make our choice and live with what we've chosen.

What the present liberty really means is that God values your personhood, your identity, your self, so much that He grants you the freedom to choose Him; and with it, as an unavoidable corollary, He honours your decision to reject Him as well. Both are final, because you have a right to decide whether you want the relationship or not.

As C.S. Lewis once put it,

“There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened.”
"chosen" you say that like its fix in stone
Well, what's important is not what I say; it's what God says. He'd know.
Can the Souls in Heaven sin?
No, but it's not logically necessary that they should. Once one has chosen freely, one has chosen freely. One's identity and personhood have been established.

Consider the situation of marriage. The woman and the man agree to be together "in sickness and in health, for better, for worse..." and so on. Nobody imagines that means they aren't making a free choice. To be "married" is to commit oneself to a relationship perpetually, from now on. But it's a very free choice. Nobody makes you make it. And once you're in it, things are different. But it's a decision you freely made.

Just so, God wants us to choose union and friendship with Him. We need an opportunity to choose that, and we need an alternative; otherwise, it was never a choice at all. But when we're in, we're in. And if you're out...well, then that decision too is permanent. But it was freely chosen, too.
no, we get what your god choose
No, you get to choose between the alternatives that are possible to all men, as Romans 1, above, says.

The Bible says, "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come..."(2 Peter 3:9-10)
thanks for reply
My pleasure.
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by gaffo »

attofishpi wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 5:18 pm Don't bother getting a room. Just inter_face.
your are an Assie. watching someting on YT just now, and they mention Johanne PEterson governor of Queensland - 1990's - as a corrupt SOB - true?

jut wondering.

not an Assie - but know you are and wold know of "peterson" and if he were a corrupt SOB or a good fellow. - i perosnally welcome dducation on all lands and times and leaders - being a dumb american.
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Re: Understanding the religious mindset

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 1:38 am
gaffo wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 8:41 pm if willing i'd like to know more about your chaacter prior to being saved
Very pushy. Hyper-competitive. Aggressive. And very indifferent to other people, as well as being very negative in general.
none of those are good, but thanks for answering - why do you think you wer that way in your early years? (again non of my busines - but view you as a friend and welcoem discusion on the matter - but not demanding it). I welcome our discourse sicne 3 yrs prior as good enough to show character so no need to anwser if you do not wish to. just wondering about.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 1:38 am
Of course, nobody appointed us as our own judge.
BUT I DID that - as my inner voice from a kid - I was my own state judry and executioner!!!!!!!!

I call it my conscience to keep me on the straight and nerrow.

so ya this forum allow you to see that I do have a different perspective. from i can get maybe you wre too easy on yourself, and i was too hard.

- we ended up at the same palce - you with your God and me being my own worst accussor - to keep us in line ;-). ---;-/.


;-(.


Immanuel Can wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 1:38 am But we arrogate that status to ourselves, and then think we've proved we're fine.
speak for yourself - i cannot for you. all i can do is speak for myself and my own consceince - whicn int he near term is a millstone - but longterm is a guide to right conduct. - sometime i do think it is my own worst enamy, but in reality is is the opposite.


I am my own worst crtic/enemy - but like a sword - sometimes i need a good beatdown - bat the pride out of me and make me humble.

--- BTW I gave 3 cigs to Donovan - you r nkow the hurdy Gurdy ma - great song - but not the same Donovan (is the original still alive - always liked im music?) anyway i had 6 beers and he asked me for a cig - i gave him 3 since i told him i would just thrown them away after sobering up tommorrow - so just gave hime 3) - what was i sayin????i foregget - you cna remind me in reply.

i think it was about conscinc - and you assume folks are snnakes - cause suals was one and assume others were to - --- this is where we dissagree - saul awa a snake but most folks are not/ not you nor me - sual was though.


Immanuel Can wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 1:38 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 4:12 am Well, there's nobody in Hell who doesn't chosen it.
Thats bullshit i've not chosen Hell - I just need proof that a God or God exist

The proof exists. But lots of people don't want to consider it proof at all. Here's what Romans says about that:

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their reasonings, and their senseless hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools..." (Romans 1)
I don't give 2 shit what that asshole Saul said in Romans. he is thug and i ignore all his letters. I read them to know my enemy, but not for Trut.

fuck Saul.

other works in the NT are lightyears better authored by moral men - that leaves Saul out.

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 1:38 am
if in the next life - like in your Hell - I am "still alvie" - i will convert to your Faith
Hebrews 9:27 says," it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment" That's what God tells us about that. The chance to decide has already been given. There's no infinite license on disbelief.

Your Hebrews is just saying we all die eventually - lik ethe cat i loved that died - Fidget - 5 months ago - According to Christians cats lack a soul and are just plants - so no heavne nor hell for them - so my best friend from another speices just "gopes away" while i die and live on in Herll fforever. - lovely.

my best friend was a plant and never had a soul, and i have an immoral soul damed to Hell forever due to my athiesism. Amen and halliluyah.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 1:38 am
Because free will is necessary for relationship. If you don't have any chance to choose not-God, then there's no sense in which you can freely choose God either. You would be doomed to be a slave, a robot, and automaton, were it not that God gives you freedom. But sin is not something that God can just wink at...not and be a just God. So sooner or later, a truly just God must judge, and judge with absolute fairness and truth. And sooner or later, we have to make our choice and live with what we've chosen./quote]

ok - then i await your god when i find myself still alive in Hell, after i have died here on earth - then i shall repent of my dissbelief - and hope he allow me into his heaven.


Immanuel Can wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 1:38 am What the present liberty really means is that God values your personhood, your identity, your self, so much that He grants you the freedom to choose Him; and with it, as an unavoidable corollary, He honours your decision to reject Him as well. Both are final, because you have a right to decide whether you want the relationship or not.


so you are claiming your God values freewill of the 0.00000000000000000001 timeline of the souls he created - but not the personhood of the same said soul the reat of the 99.99999999999999999999 - i.e. after death in Heaven /Hell/

ok

so I'm born a robot 99.9999999 percent of.


Immanuel Can wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 1:38 am As C.S. Lewis once put it,

“There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened.”

C s lewli was a lightweight thinker - and a piss poor sci fiction writer - i dno't know about him as a man, so might have been a godo man and a shitty auther with no ideas/ not into dissparaging long dead men per their characher - fully fine with dissparaging thier publishshed works though. CS lewis has never offered me anything.

give me Borrowughs, Braddbury, Heinland, Azimov, Silverburg/ and a 100 others over your Lewus


Immanuel Can wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 1:38 am
"chosen" you say that like its fix in stone
Well, what's important is not what I say; it's what God says. He'd know.

it not what He knows its what He does - so you saying that uopon my death - as an immortal soul - it fine by you for your god to remove my freewill to repent from Hell after i find myself still alive and wrong about my athiesm.

if do why for me to be an immortal soul? - why not just an 80 yr old one - and upon my death my body and soul both end. - does your God delight in me being in his Hell forever?
denying my repentence from - or converting the nature of my soul to no longer have the freewill i have on earrth to convert/repent from hell - your god seems like a dick to me. if that is so.


Immanuel Can wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 1:38 am
Can the Souls in Heaven sin?
No, but it's not logically necessary that they should. Once one has chosen freely, one has chosen freely. One's identity and personhood have been established.

odd, just few hours ago you stated my Baptist view of "once saved always saved" was wrong - now you are stating that someow - after death "persons' souls are converted - and so lnow onece in Heaven can not backslide and end up in hell - so freewill is removed ofrom the dad souls - and al ore just zombies - those in Heaben and thoe in Hell?

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 1:38 am Consider the situation of marriage. The woman and the man agree to be together "in sickness and in health, for better, for worse..." and so on. Nobody imagines that means they aren't making a free choice. To be "married" is to commit oneself to a relationship perpetually, from now on. But it's a very free choice. Nobody makes you make it. And once you're in it, things are different. But it's a decision you freely made.
Ideeed. and how does the second wife feel about the sharing of the husband widower in the afterlife in Heaven - one man and 2 wives.

or vise versa.

maybe tyhe econd wife should never have nerried a widower know she would have to share him in the next life?
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 1:38 am Just so, God wants us to choose union and friendship with Him. We need an opportunity to choose that, and we need an alternative; otherwise, it was never a choice at all. But when we're in, we're in. And if you're out...well, then that decision too is permanent. But it was freely chosen, too.

I'll choose your God after my dath and from Hell - I let him desicide if he will aloow Salvation from Hell - not up to me - up to him.

no, we get what your god choose
No, you get to choose between the alternatives that are possible to all men, as Romans 1, above, says.

The Bible says, "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come..."(2 Peter 3:9-10)
thanks for reply
My pleasure.
fuck Saul - pony asshoe that took over your Fatih. James,Luke, Matt, Mark and Jude much more moral authors that that ashole Saul.........but the deed is done and just pissing in the wing 1800 yrs now.
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