Religion Is Insanity

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Lacewing
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

Post by Lacewing »

henry quirk wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:47 pm
Lacewing wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:38 pm I don't care.
If that were the case you wouldn't have spent so much time, offered so many posts, tryin' to convince me I'm wrong and you're right.
I was saying I don't care that I "haven't convinced you". I don't post to convince you. (Do you post to convince me? No, of course not!) I post because it's fun and interesting to challenge the status quo and the absurd claims that people come up with.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Lacewing wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 3:27 am I was saying I don't care that I "haven't convinced you".
That much, I can readily believe.

Likewise, this particular thread doesn't seem to be directed toward the advancing of any rational proposition. Having started with a rather bizarre outlier case, and having hastily generalized it to all "religion," it seems instead merely a flogging post around which can be rallied all those who wish not actually to think about "religion" at all.
Do you post to convince me?
I don't know about Henry's purpose in that, but I certainly keep an ongoing optimism on the possibility that I may read something interesting, something that may actually stretch my understanding, and in the similar hope that somebody on the other end will be likewise interested in having their understanding stretched.

Whether that results in a complete change of mind is probably at little less likely, but anything's possible to two rational but open minds in discussion. We're not all doomed merely to parrot the received ideas of our social group or our personal prejudices, one would hope.

But I wonder why anybody would think philosophy was worthwhile if they came into the conversation already incapable of being convinced of anything they didn't already believe.
gaffo
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

Post by gaffo »

Dontaskme wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:00 am The true nature of being is the unknown.

Religion is formed from the idea that there is a separate personal automony in a knowing relationship with the unknown.

This personal automonous knowing relationship is an illusion.
good summation and apt one
gaffo
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

Post by gaffo »

and no religion is not insanity. there is both and good in it. generally more good than bad.

but I'm just a dumb Atheist.
gaffo
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

Post by gaffo »

uwot wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:59 pm The insane thing about christianity is that in order to gain eternal life, you have to hate the one you already have.
sadly true - the salf hating Saul corrupted Christianity with his letters - and ignored over took the other works -james/jude/etc...so man is a wrom and self hating and never good enough to self save via works.

Juddaism/Islam and the other works - now ignored in the NT - affirm man as good enough to save himself if he does good works.

but sadly Saul took over Christian thought - so man is aworm and must hate himself (aul was a coward - he tranfirred his self hate to all others and made us pay for his personal problems).

oh well. I'm just an atheist what do i know?
gaffo
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

Post by gaffo »

Dubious wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:35 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:59 pm
Lacewing wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:38 pm You appear to represent the deceptive, self-serving kind.
As I said...hating is easy. It's so much easier than challenging oneself to learn to love.
Yeah, right. It prioritizes the question have you challenged yourself enough to love the damned, i.e., those who don't believe or worship Jesus and especially those who renounce the existence of any god? Or would you love them to such a pitch that you'd burn them alive to save their souls from further damnation?

Based on all your posts regarding atheists, I think the latter more likely!
the 3.3 yrs i've been hear Emmanual has conversed with me with respect with the full understadning i am an atheist. so stop your slander please.
gaffo
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

Post by gaffo »

Dubious wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:47 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:45 am
Dubious wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:35 am Based on all your posts regarding atheists, I think the latter more likely!
I'm pretty sure you won't even find one that supports that impression, but okay. It's maybe an easier story to tell yourself, I guess.
Your perennial crusade against the infidel atheist is well-known and shows a tremendous amount of hate. I have no doubt that if you lived and had the power in the middle ages you would delight in consigning them all to the flames as an introduction to the everlasting fires of hell. For you that would be an act of faith, otherwise known as an auto-da-fé.
why do you slander a good man? what is your game?
gaffo
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

Post by gaffo »

Dontaskme wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:02 am A little while ago I invited IC to look at Nonduality and what it is pointing to.

IC proceeded to look at it, but then announced that he didn't BELIEVE it.

His obvious confusion regarding the nondual nature of reality is at the heart of all IC's inability to be open and accepting to opposition and critisism of his very unbalanced one sided views. He's a typical die hard ''East is East' and ''West is West'' and ''Never the Twain Shall Meet'' type of believer.

In reality, Nondualism is not opposed to the theistic world view. The obvious reason why IC rejects Nonduality is because it transcends all ideas, philosophies, and religions. He's simply not open to the idea that there simply is no wo/man in relationship with God.
He stubbornly refuses to die to his I ( even though Jesus showed him how it was done )
Jesus uttered: "It is finished.'' ...an ocean of meaning in a drop of language. I am the First and the Last ( The Logos )

In Nondual speak, which Jesus himself spoke actually, Jesus said: ''The Kingdom of God'' which literally means 'nondual reality' as being beyond theology. Meaning, you cannot even speak of it, you can only be it, and know it silently. Therefore, theologies are only useful when they point beyond themselves to the Kingdom diectly.

That is why Jesus spoke in parables, he knew words would be misconstrued, but used them anyway to point to the one without a second.

In other words..to the..''I am the Lord, and there is no other besides me'' Isaiah 45:5

The problem is, Nonduality comes at the truth from a different angle than of Christianity.

Nonduality is neither 'this' nor 'that', it is One. We already know this. So the problem with preaching the truth, is that words are dualistic and cover-over what's actually being pointed to.

Both Nonduality and One-ness point to the same truth. .''I am the Lord, and there is no other besides me'' Isaiah 45:5

There is NO ONE because there is no 'OTHER' than ONE

Shh! Be still and know that I am God.

It's all very simple really, perhaps a little too simple for some people.

GOD is just another word for Beingness, Oneness, Everything and Nothing, What Is, Consciousness, Awareness, One without a Second etc...
as you proabably know archiec Judaism was nondualist - YHWH was good yet created evil on in the world - after the 2nd retrun from exile - post 587 BC the jJews (Ezra) reformed judaism into the persianconcept of duality - and of course imported Satan (Ahraman) to explane away why evil exists in the world - no longer due to YHWH - but to Satan instead.

Chrsinity being born after the 2nd return from exile adoped the latter reformed judaic thought on the mater of dualism.
gaffo
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

Post by gaffo »

RCSaunders wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:23 pm
Dubious wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:52 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:58 am
Heh. :D You won't find any evidence for that.
I forgot to add you're also known after years of experience on this site as a consummate liar, distorter and deceiver. ...
I'm sorry this discussion has devolved to addressing, "personalities." But, if it must:

IC is definitely NOT a liar. He truly believes what he argues for and even those arguments that seem disingenuous are sincere, however mistaken, because he believes their validity. He is certainly deluded, as anyone who entertains irrational views is, but that happens to be the case with almost everyone who embraces some ideology or, "philosophy." IC is no more deluded than those who worship, "social collectivism," (like Sculptor), or, "physicalism," (like Dontaskme), or, "mysticism," or swallow any of the pseudo-sciences, like psychology, sociology, and evolution, or absurd anti-knowledge philosophies that began with Hume and passed through Kant and the logical positivists to today's post modernists.

They are all sincere, but it is still true: "All men mean well. The road to hell is paved with good intentions." [George Bernard Shaw]

Agreed - your above post does your character credit. IC is a good guy.

BTW i like Hume!!!!!!!!!!!!!! lol ;-/.
gaffo
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

Post by gaffo »

Lacewing wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:00 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:23 pm IC is definitely NOT a liar. He truly believes what he argues for and even those arguments that seem disingenuous are sincere, however mistaken, because he believes their validity.
I can see his commitment to his beliefs. Is deception in discussion different than lying? Is avoidance, redirection, and willful distortion truthful?

When someone calls these out, they are said to be hateful -- even though they are just describing what is being done. Is it not hateful to do all of the above?

I've never seen deception in IC's posts - can you prodie an example of?
gaffo
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:18 pm
And what has IC said is true about God? That God exists. That He is righteous. That He is also love. That He is the source of salvation, and the hope of the World.
So you claim your God is one of Love? if so why does the God of Love not allow repentance from Hell for the salvation of those there - as an Athiest i will soon be there - in 5-30 yrs from now - finding myself thre your God of Love will not allow me repreive after repentance - instead i must sit there FOREVER...........that is what your book says.


and this is a God of Love? really? REALLY?

lovely - if so i wonder what a God of Hate would be?- no different imo.
Last edited by gaffo on Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Lacewing
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

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Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:06 am Having started with a rather bizarre outlier case, and having hastily generalized it to all "religion," it seems instead merely a flogging post around which can be rallied all those who wish not actually to think about "religion" at all.
Well, of course the thread is about the insanity (or madness) that has occurred in religion... of which there is plenty. Even Christians should be able to acknowledge this. If they don't, they're not being honest.

I think the thread also became a rallying cry for you to stop playing your frequently-used games of avoidance, because people want their questions answered when they challenge your claims. The questions and challenges are reasonable in response to the claims you make. If you cannot answer challenges to your claims, then say so. But don't blame it on the people who are asking, as if they are the reason you refuse to answer.
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:06 am I certainly keep an ongoing optimism on the possibility that I may read something interesting, something that may actually stretch my understanding, and in the similar hope that somebody on the other end will be likewise interested in having their understanding stretched.
Me too. I'm not trying to convince anyone to believe a certain thing. Rather, I'm challenging what is believed because I think there can be more beyond that. I am perfectly capable (as I have demonstrated) of asking very reasonable and thoughtful questions in a respectful manner. But when someone starts projecting, evading, and playing games instead of showing the courtesy of a straight-forward response, then I start riding my dragon.
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:06 amWe're not all doomed merely to parrot the received ideas of our social group or our personal prejudices, one would hope.
I appreciate hearing you say that... and I hope it's true for you. I agree with that.
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:06 amBut I wonder why anybody would think philosophy was worthwhile if they came into the conversation already incapable of being convinced of anything they didn't already believe.
Exactly. I think questioning is the way to explore potential and find understanding. For starters:

Why do we believe what we believe?
Were we indoctrinated into it?
Did we already believe it as children?
How much of it is created and influenced by humans?
And does it really make a difference whether we believe it or not, or do people have the same potential regardless of what they believe?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Lacewing wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:45 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:06 am Having started with a rather bizarre outlier case, and having hastily generalized it to all "religion," it seems instead merely a flogging post around which can be rallied all those who wish not actually to think about "religion" at all.
Well, of course the thread is about the insanity (or madness) that has occurred in religion...
No, it's not. Look at the wording. It claims that all "religion" IS "insanity."

And it goes on to make that case from one bizarre instance happening in one "religion," by somebody who doesn't even understand what that "religion" teaches.
I'm not trying to convince anyone to believe a certain thing.

Maybe one should be. That doesn't mean one has to be unpersuadable. But if a person arrives at a discussion with no point worth speaking about at the start, what has he/she got to offer?
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:06 amWe're not all doomed merely to parrot the received ideas of our social group or our personal prejudices, one would hope.
I appreciate hearing you say that... and I hope it's true for you. I agree with that.
Fair enough.
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Lacewing
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

Post by Lacewing »

gaffo wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:39 am I've never seen deception in IC's posts - can you prodie an example of?
Oh for fuck sake... like I have any interest in traipsing through a bunch of bullshit all over again to show you something. I don't care what you cannot see. Other people have seen it, and it has been brought up to I.C. countless times. We're moving on...
gaffo
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

Post by gaffo »

henry quirk wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:01 am Truth be told: there's a whack of folks in-forum who hate Christianity (or mebbe [the idea of] God) and they discharge their hatred on the guy who -- quite admirably, and more than adequately -- defends Christianity. They despise his certainty, his faith, and since they can't erode his faith, they look to erode him.

What's so threatenin' about Christianity or Mannie?

Nuthin' at all. But the nay-sayers are threatened...instead of hackin' away, they oughta be self-interrogatin'.

And, yeah, I defend him knowin' full well he thinks I'm gonna spend eternity roastin' in the Pit.
well said - and pure Wisdom on your part (i'm glad to see such Wisdom sir).

and agreed IC's God of "love" will not mandate you and me to burn in Hell Forever - even after we both repent from our dissbelef - finding us both "still alive" in Hell I will repent of my egoism and denial of YHWH within 1/10th of a second and you will do the same at 1/11th or 1/9th of.........but rest ashired God is one of Love - so you an di will be ignored and have to sit with each other for eternity.

Not sure if i like you enough for that - but i'll find out shortly ;-/. we'll have to keep each other comany forever.

God of love ya gotta love that one.
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