Religion Is Insanity

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Lacewing wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:11 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:28 pm I'm saying "religion" is a vague term. It's been used to describe practically everything, to the point where it's become useless. I'm saying "Pick a precise term."
But people think of it differently...
Yes. Some think irrationally. Some think vaguely. Some think imprecisely. And none of them, not even the experts, are able to say precisely what they mean, so long as they cling to the term "religion." Hence, there are good reasons to reject the term.
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 2:06 pm
Lacewing wrote: Do you think that what you talk about is anything more than what appears to you?
We'll find out, I expect.
I asked you what you think?
I believe in objective reality.
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 2:06 pmIf one does not already know that 2+2=4, they're in no position to say whether 2+2+5 is a lie or foolishness, or just a better answer.
I think it's important not to go to extremes with definitions and positions.

It's not "to extremes."

Asking a person to be exact about what he/she means is only a form of rationality and politeness. It's saying, "I believe that what you may be trying to say is potentially so important that I want to be sure to understand exactly what you are trying to communicate." To leave that vague is, by contrast, to say, "Knowing exactly what you mean is of no importance to me; my own view is more important, and so long as I can air it, who cares what you meant?"

So let's go the first way, not the second. Let's give people credit for the possibility that they have something important to say; and if we suspect unclarity has crept into their usage, then in aid of them being able to say it, ask them precisely what they meant before we react. In other words, let's give them the dignity of specifying their definition, so we can speak to their point.
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RCSaunders
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

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Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:12 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:00 pm Any belief in any kind of knowledge that does not have to be discovered or learned.
Fits Atheism, for sure.
Any belief in a contingent reality.
Fits Atheism: it ONLY believes reality is "contingent."
Any belief that truth can be based on authority.
Fits Atheism: it claims it is authorized by "science," but is actually only authorized by wish.
The belief in anything ineffable.
Doesn't fit Atheism, but only because Atheism just denies that things like mind, consciousness, will, identity and so on are anything but materials.
By a religion I mean any ideology or belief that includes any of these.
Then Atheism is one of these. It fits at least three of the four, but plausibly all four.
Oh, I agree. All, "isms," are forms of ideologies, so in that sense, superstitions. So why do you only pick on that one religion?
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Lacewing
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

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Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:19 pm...
I see your perspective and the value it offers. I know of other valuable perspectives which are not structured like yours, and those are the ones I prefer. Your idea of an objective reality is no reality for them. It is difficult to talk across such a chasm about a great many things using such different languages and ideas.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

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RCSaunders wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:56 pm Oh, I agree. All, "isms," are forms of ideologies, so in that sense, superstitions. So why do you only pick on that one religion?
Because there are lots of people who would insist "Atheism's not a religion." Likewise, there are Buddhists who will tell you they're "not a religion, but a philosophy." But they both fit your definitions.

And we don't need to hash that dispute out with them; the main point is that the definition of "religion" is controversial, even for Atheists. And as for people who actually believe something is true, I have yet to meet one who says, "No, I"m not a Hindu/ Muslim / Jew / Mennonite / Mormon / whatever, I'm religious." :?

In other words, nobody who the Atheists call "religious" is content to see themselves as merely "religious." They all want to say, "What I believe is the truth; everything ELSE is 'religion.'"

So "religion" is actually a cynic's term, used to lump incommensurable beliefs into one mass, and to dismiss them all without further examination and with no attempt to differentiate what they actually claim as true or false. It's generally not the way "religious" people actually think about what they are doing, and for the cynic, it's just the easy road to not having to think.
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RCSaunders
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

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Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:33 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:56 pm Oh, I agree. All, "isms," are forms of ideologies, so in that sense, superstitions. So why do you only pick on that one religion?
Because there are lots of people who would insist "Atheism's not a religion." Likewise, there are Buddhists who will tell you they're "not a religion, but a philosophy." But they both fit your definitions.

And we don't need to hash that dispute out with them; the main point is that the definition of "religion" is controversial, even for Atheists. And as for people who actually believe something is true, I have yet to meet one who says, "No, I"m not a Hindu/ Muslim / Jew / Mennonite / Mormon / whatever, I'm religious." :?

In other words, nobody who the Atheists call "religious" is content to see themselves as merely "religious." They all want to say, "What I believe is the truth; everything ELSE is 'religion.'"
Where have you been? I hear people say things like, "I'm not a Christian," or, "I don't belong to a church," then add, "but I'm very religious," all the time. Especially celebrities. Some do not use the word, "religious," but talk about their, "faith," or, "spirituality," or some such, but they certainly do not get all huffy if you call their belief, "religion." What do you think all the, "religion," departments in colleges and universities are departments of? What are all the courses on, "comparative religion," about?

On the other hand, I do have to agree with you that every religious (or whatever it is you call them) person does believe that all other religions are wrong. In other words, everyone believes that all religious people are a little insane. except those that have the same religion they do. As I wrote in Silly Religion
Since every religion contradicts every other religion, if any religion happens to be right, all of the other religions must be wrong. That means what the majority of mankind believes, with regard to religion, is untrue.
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:33 pm So "religion" is actually a cynic's term, used to lump incommensurable beliefs into one mass, ...
Here's a list of over 600 US colleges and universities with Religion/Religious Studies courses. Apparently they have hot learned from you that, "religion," is a cynic's term identifying, "incommensurables." [An commensurable only means not having a common unit of measure. "Pudding, team, bread, celebration, etc. are all, "incommensurable."]
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:33 pm ... It's generally not the way "religious" people actually think about what they are doing, and for the cynic, it's just the easy road to not having to think.
Well I wouldn't know about that, not being able to read other's minds to see how they think. I only have what they say and do to go by, and most of them don't seem to mind being called religious and don't seem the least bit cynical.

If the word religion actually offends you that much, there is no reason you have to use it. I wasn't defining the word, only explaining how I was using it when I said, "Religion Is Insanity." Just think, "embracing any of those views I listed," is insanity. There's no reason to get all indignant and accuse people of avoiding thinking, is there?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

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RCSaunders wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:54 pm I hear people say things like, "I'm not a Christian," or, "I don't belong to a church," then add, "but I'm very religious," all the time.
Then you should ask them what they mean, since clearly, that explanation tells you nothing.
What are all the courses on, "comparative religion," about?
I can tell you, actually. I know for a fact.

What happens in such courses is that the very first subject they take up is "What is a 'religion,"" and the results are "We don't really know for sure; it's a cluster of things, with fuzzy edges." Every proposal for a solid answer so far has come up against significant problems.
On the other hand, I do have to agree with you that every religious (or whatever it is you call them) person does believe that all other religions are wrong. In other words, everyone believes that all religious people are a little insane...
Well, that's your second problematic word. If everybody "religious" is insane, that's between 92 and 96% of the world's population. You might find that saying "They're all insane" is somewhat of an inadequate characterization, there. You might well find -- and I think you will -- that there are much better, much more thoughtful explanations of the widespread phenomenon of "religiosity" than global insanity.
Since every religion contradicts every other religion, if any religion happens to be right, all of the other religions must be wrong. That means what the majority of mankind believes, with regard to religion, is untrue.
Yes, it does.

However, it does not at all imply that their desire for answers to the most important questions of life, such as meaning, morals and truth, is an "insane" desire. It just means that a lot of people are looking for answers in the wrong places.
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:33 pm So "religion" is actually a cynic's term, used to lump incommensurable beliefs into one mass, ...
Here's a list of over 600 US colleges and universities with Religion/Religious Studies courses. Apparently they have hot learned from you that, "religion," is a cynic's term identifying, "incommensurables."
Actually, they have.

You're not up to date, I guess. The consensus view among scholars of "religion" as well as enthusiasts of things like multiculturalism, cosmopolitanism and globalism is that the problem facing any democratic polity today is essentially the uniting of incommensurable views under a single political system. It's actually quite common knowledge that "incommensurability" is a fact.

And even you just said as much above. Did you not write, "Since every religion contradicts every other religion, if any religion happens to be right, all of the other religions must be wrong. That means what the majority of mankind believes, with regard to religion, is untrue."?

That's "incommensurability."
If the word religion actually offends you that much, there is no reason you have to use it.
Offend? No. It's a common enough error-in-thinking to warrant little concern over offence.

But I do find it kind of misleading and imprecise. I do find that it mangles clear thought when we group together things that are quite different, as if they were all alike. And I find the use of such vague and confused terms impairs good judgment. That's a rather different motivation for finding a better set of concepts to employ.

Think about this statement: "Religious fanatics fly planes into towers." As a statement about Islamists, it's true, of course. But how many Mennonites were involved? How many Buddhists? How many Zoroastrians did that? How about the Amish...have they discovered planes yet? :lol:

What makes perfect sense if the referent is specific enough becomes stupid if we leave it vague.
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

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Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:57 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:54 pmWhat are all the courses on, "comparative religion," about?
I can tell you, actually. I know for a fact.

What happens in such courses is that the very first subject they take up is "What is a 'religion,"" and the results are "We don't really know for sure; it's a cluster of things, with fuzzy edges." Every proposal for a solid answer so far has come up against significant problems.
That explanation was not necessary. Except for some technology and science areas, I doubt if any academic knows for sure what he's supposed to be teaching or what any of the terms he uses actually mean.

I've explained what I mean by religion and why it is a form of self-induced insanity. I'm not interested in convincing anyone else, especially anyone who is religious, as I describe it. You certainly don't have to agree with it.
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

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Perhaps it should be asked what is common to most religions and that part is fairly clear. Religion is any long-held belief which has a redemption motive at its center whether supernaturally inscribed as through gods or metaphysically by means of mind-training. An example of that, I think, would be how to avoid reincarnation together with all the assumed disciplines required to accomplish it. Eastern religions have mostly been more of the M-type while the Western mind set is or was more conditioned on the S-type which in the Abrahamic traditions simply enforces belief in a deity to be saved or at least not to be damned. In effect, religion is that which innately has some kind of redemption motive at its core. This makes religion hard to resist for many and accepting of its many absurdities.
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

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RCSaunders wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:43 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:57 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:54 pmWhat are all the courses on, "comparative religion," about?
I can tell you, actually. I know for a fact.

What happens in such courses is that the very first subject they take up is "What is a 'religion,"" and the results are "We don't really know for sure; it's a cluster of things, with fuzzy edges." Every proposal for a solid answer so far has come up against significant problems.
That explanation was not necessary.
Really? I was under the impression that maybe you didn't know it. My mistake.

But then I can't see why your mention of universities was terribly relevant to the question, but okay.
I've explained what I mean by religion and why it is a form of self-induced insanity.
Well, that much is clear from the OP. I can see that you think that. WHY you think that, and whether or not there's any JUSTIFICATION in you thinking it, well, those are different questions, of course. You seem to be saying that 92-96% of the world is made up of loons. And, I guess, you think the other 4% are sane...except that they're the Atheists, and you've already made it clear you don't have much sympathy with them either...

So just what is the percentage of "sane" people you think exist in this world? Something considerably less than 4%?
You certainly don't have to agree with it.
I wasn't feeling I did, actually. But thanks.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

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Dubious wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 2:36 am Perhaps it should be asked what is common to most religions and that part is fairly clear. ...In effect, religion is that which innately has some kind of redemption motive at its core.
What do you mean by "redemption motive"? Do you think Buddhism, for example, has that? Or Hinduism? Or Islam? Or are they not "religions"? I think you're not understanding how complex the question is. Experts in the field have a lot more trouble than that with it.
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

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Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:12 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:00 pmAny belief in any kind of knowledge that does not have to be discovered or learned.
Fits Atheism, for sure.
Well Mr Can, it fits your definition of 'Atheism'. Since you cannot define religion, congratulations on finding a word you think you can define. The rest of the planet will get along just fine with atheism meaning a lack of belief.
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:12 pm
Any belief in a contingent reality.
Fits Atheism: it ONLY believes reality is "contingent."
For someone who is so frequently pedantic it is sloppy language, but again, atheism doesn't believe anything.
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:12 pm
Any belief that truth can be based on authority.
Fits Atheism: it claims it is authorized by "science," but is actually only authorized by wish.
You are a fool Mr Can. Atheists do not wish that god doesn't exist. They simply don't believe any god does exist.
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:12 pm
The belief in anything ineffable.
Doesn't fit Atheism, but only because Atheism just denies that things like mind, consciousness, will, identity and so on are anything but materials.
That's materialism/physicalism and yes, they do make some ontological claims - unlike atheism. Get yer 'isms' straight.
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

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Image

Not-Knowing, is the ONLY KNOWLEDGE.

Only ignorance is original. Everything else is a pure substitute, a barking dog.
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

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Walker wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:07 am
gaffo wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:04 am
Lacewing wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:54 am
Oh for fuck sake... like I have any interest in traipsing through a bunch of bullshit all over again to show you something. I don't care what you cannot see. Other people have seen it, and it has been brought up to I.C. countless times. We're moving on...
ok - lets move on then.

lets talk about the God of Love putting all born before the time of Christ and 9/10th of all after him into Hell forever.

thats my bag anyway/.

lets talk about a religoin with that type of God - one of such "love" lol.

make Belial look good in my book.
gaffo old chap. Hell can only be known in the present. Heaven too.

First of all, before any meaningful discussion can take place, a premise must be accepted, for the premise is the basis of the discussion. In this case, the premise is the definition of God.

Therefore, the premise to define God and serve as the basis of discussion is … drumroll …

God is the nameless thing of a thousand names (credit J. Krishnamurti.)

Change that definition and you have a new premise, a new discussion if another accepts your new premise. That’s just the way things are.

Accepting this premise for the basis of discussion automatically eliminates any limiting projections concerning any concepts surrounding the God-concept that atheists attempt to foist upon others, such as God being a big old meanie. :roll:

Quite simply, humans have an inherent recognition of the divine … and so pluck one of the thousand names to attach to that recognition. For instance, the guiding-light North Star attaches to the recognition, a tangible light in the darkness which was likely recognized by humans long before Christianity, perhaps even long before language … even though there are always those individuals of every age who lack the capacity for recognition of the inherent.
fully do not understand your point at all in any way - welcome clarification though.

per myself i cannot know God/ - for I'm an ant and unable to know if they/he are or not - and so knowing i am too limited to "know" god/s i do not bother to do so. i assume there is none due to empiricsm, but welcome poof to alter this view since atheism offers nothing.


so in short i know I'm an ant and by my nature too small in spirit to know of the gods existance, but not too limited to know right from wrong - i know the concept of sitting in hell forever as an immortal soul is evil - for times served for transgression on Earth - fine - give me a sentance and i shall serve it - but the FOREVER part is immoral - full stop - to this ant mind at least it is a clear WRONG RED LIGHT FULL STOP WRONG>


-----but who know - i don't maybe there is a god or gods and they are evil and delight in me dying for my sins in this life - and to pay for them forever in the pit - if that gets the gods jollis off so be it (not saying fine - not in a long shot - but just that i cant change a dick god is not one of mercy).


I shall see the nature of God/s when i die - assuming i am wrong about my atheism. my final fate and the time i serve is up its up to them not me.
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

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RCSaunders wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 2:21 pm
gaffo wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:37 am BTW i like Hume!!!!!!!!!!!!!! lol ;-/.
He was, apparently, an adequate historian, but his philosophy was a disaster. Have you really studied him? He thought, "concepts," (the foundation of epistemology) consisted of little abstract pictures in one's head, for example, and that, "cause," meant things that were similar and seemed to follow one another, as another. That was called philosophy. Oh well!
I learned of him in Philosophy-Ethics course in college in the late 80's - did not know he was an historian (thanks for this - i will have to look into what he had to say on history)

my understanding of him is in short - "just bacause a ball after thown returns to earth" - is not a Truth about gravity - but jut obersavation the 1000 times before and at that time last thrown. might not be the case in the next toss.


there is not mandate of faith in gravity due to former obersvation, or maybe thre is and i mised the memo?
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

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RCSaunders wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:45 pm The human mind infected with religion is like the brain demented by drugs. Some handle it better than others, but all religious individuals are a little insane.

Here is specimen:
[Also here, here, here, and here.]

So this is big news in the religious world, and other Christians are calling it evil and saying it's anti-Biblical and Satanic. And, of course, it is being called racist, but nobody is pointing out the poor woman is suffering from a total mental breakdown.

She's a Doctor of theology, a psychologist, and an academic who has expressed a desire to embrace the most self-destructive of all emotions fostered by those disciplines--hate. She never had a chance and I frankly feel very sorry for her.

In case you think this is an anomaly, praying for hate is a Biblical idea:

Psalms 26:5 I have hated the congregation of evil doers; and will not sit with the wicked.
Psalms 139:21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
Psalms 139:22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
I hate people that hate.
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