Religion Is Insanity

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Lacewing wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:40 pm How do you know the truthfulness of a message that is not proven to be true?
You assess any message by the facts and realities to which it refers. If reality fails to reflect it, you disbelieve it; but if reality reflects the truth of the utterance, then you believe it.

But you know that. It's not rocket science.
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henry quirk
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

Post by henry quirk »

uwot wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:22 pm
henry quirk wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:59 pm
uwot wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:50 pm Absolutely. *That doesn't mean your reasoning is any good.
*True...but it might be.
Yes it might. In a nutshell, philosophy is about good reasoning. The purpose is to take a few ideas and see what happens when you mash them together. *It is an achievement to create a story that accounts for everything you know; it is a mistake to believe coherence is any measure of truth.
*And the story shifts dependin" on placeholders.

I believe in God becuz of the apparent reality of free will in a deterministic universe.

I believe in a Creator becuz the human individual is autonomous in a deterministic reality.

There is a Maker and my chief evidence of Him is man's capacity for self-direction, his capacity to willfully bend and begin causal chains.

I believe in a moral undergirding to the world becuz no man accepts the leash.

And on and on...

The same story summarized in four different ways.

Description, metaphor. Gettin' a grip on the most slippery of fish.
Dubious
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

Post by Dubious »

RCSaunders wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:23 pm
Dubious wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:52 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:58 am
Heh. :D You won't find any evidence for that.
I forgot to add you're also known after years of experience on this site as a consummate liar, distorter and deceiver. ...
I'm sorry this discussion has devolved to addressing, "personalities." But, if it must:

IC is definitely NOT a liar. He truly believes what he argues for and even those arguments that seem disingenuous are sincere, however mistaken, because he believes their validity. He is certainly deluded, as anyone who entertains irrational views is, but that happens to be the case with almost everyone who embraces some ideology or, "philosophy." IC is no more deluded than those who worship, "social collectivism," (like Sculptor), or, "physicalism," (like Dontaskme), or, "mysticism," or swallow any of the pseudo-sciences, like psychology, sociology, and evolution, or absurd anti-knowledge philosophies that began with Hume and passed through Kant and the logical positivists to today's post modernists.

They are all sincere, but it is still true: "All men mean well. The road to hell is paved with good intentions." [George Bernard Shaw]
If you want to be his apologist that's your choice. I've been communicating with IC for a lot longer than you have. What clearly comes across in those tête-à-têtes - and not only mine - is that he's the most skilled edition of a hypocrite on this or any other site I've been to. In addition, a distortionist like no other. A coward as well. How many times has he purposely avoided any of the more important questions put to him asking to justify some of his more insane ideas?

Of this too I have no doubt and mean every word. If his type lived at the time they were burning witches and heretics he'd be very assiduous in justifying it as an act of faith.

It's not his beliefs I object to regardless of how idiotic they are but his duplicitous double-dealing character in denouncing, distorting or avoiding any valid objection, this in addition to making incredibly stupid comparisons on moral grounds between atheists and theists.

Also note that it's impossible to be a hypocrite without being a liar. IC has already long ago stretched the boundaries of the former. If integrity, no matter what the subject, still has any meaning then IC is a total failure.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Dubious wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:01 am
RCSaunders wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:23 pm
Dubious wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:52 am

I forgot to add you're also known after years of experience on this site as a consummate liar, distorter and deceiver. ...
I'm sorry this discussion has devolved to addressing, "personalities." But, if it must:

IC is definitely NOT a liar. He truly believes what he argues for and even those arguments that seem disingenuous are sincere, however mistaken, because he believes their validity. He is certainly deluded, as anyone who entertains irrational views is, but that happens to be the case with almost everyone who embraces some ideology or, "philosophy." IC is no more deluded than those who worship, "social collectivism," (like Sculptor), or, "physicalism," (like Dontaskme), or, "mysticism," or swallow any of the pseudo-sciences, like psychology, sociology, and evolution, or absurd anti-knowledge philosophies that began with Hume and passed through Kant and the logical positivists to today's post modernists.

They are all sincere, but it is still true: "All men mean well. The road to hell is paved with good intentions." [George Bernard Shaw]
If you want to be his apologist that's your choice. I've been communicating with IC for a lot longer than you have. What clearly comes across in those tête-à-têtes - and not only mine - is that he's the most skilled edition of a hypocrite on this or any other site I've been to. In addition, a distortionist like no other. A coward as well. How many times has he purposely avoided any of the more important questions put to him asking to justify some of his more insane ideas?

Of this too I have no doubt and mean every word. If his type lived at the time they were burning witches and heretics he'd be very assiduous in justifying it as an act of faith.

It's not his beliefs I object to regardless of how idiotic they are but his duplicitous double-dealing character in denouncing, distorting or avoiding any valid objection, this in addition to making incredibly stupid comparisons on moral grounds between atheists and theists.

Also note that it's impossible to be a hypocrite without being a liar. IC has already long ago stretched the boundaries of the former. If integrity, no matter what the subject, still has any meaning then IC is a total failure.
IC is a 'thinker' of the lowest order. A religious nut who shouldn't even be on here. A complete waste of grey matter.
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henry quirk
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

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Truth be told: there's a whack of folks in-forum who hate Christianity (or mebbe [the idea of] God) and they discharge their hatred on the guy who -- quite admirably, and more than adequately -- defends Christianity. They despise his certainty, his faith, and since they can't erode his faith, they look to erode him.

What's so threatenin' about Christianity or Mannie?

Nuthin' at all. But the nay-sayers are threatened...instead of hackin' away, they oughta be self-interrogatin'.

And, yeah, I defend him knowin' full well he thinks I'm gonna spend eternity roastin' in the Pit.
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Lacewing
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

Post by Lacewing »

henry quirk wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:01 am Truth be told: there's a whack of folks in-forum who hate Christianity (or mebbe [the idea of] God) and they discharge their hatred on the guy who -- quite admirably, and more than adequately -- defends Christianity. They despise his certainty, his faith, and since they can't erode his faith, they look to erode him.
You are misrepresenting what has been said here. Why? This is about being deceptive in discussions... not about hate. It's totally reasonable for people to point that out when they experience it repeatedly with certain people.
henry quirk wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:01 amWhat's so threatenin' about Christianity or Mannie?
Absolutely nothing. Again, this is about not being honest in discussions, which people are completely reasonable in calling out.
henry quirk wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:01 amBut the nay-sayers are threatened...instead of hackin' away, they oughta be self-interrogatin'.
Again, you are misrepresenting what has been said. I haven't seen anybody that is threatened. Instead of butting in with your stupid-ass projections, go interrogate yourself for misrepresenting what's going on here. :wink:
henry quirk wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:01 amAnd, yeah, I defend him knowin' full well he thinks I'm gonna spend eternity roastin' in the Pit.
Oh aren't you special?! :lol:
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Dontaskme
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

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Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:49 pm
Dubious wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:52 am I forgot to add you're also known after years of experience on this site as a consummate liar, distorter and deceiver.
There it is. 8)

Hatred, bitterness, slander...they all come so easily to human nature. And they're all so wonderfully self-confirming and devoid of any serious duty or challenge to the self, as well. They don't require the perpetrator to become a better person, or to act with grace.
Then it's you're duty to model your 'idol' by overcoming and defeating the darkness, aka you're (inner) perpretator. You cannot play and then just say 'not playing'.

If you are going to put yourself out-there ( participate in the game of saint verses swine, where one throws the ball and the other one catches it ( rules of forum interaction ). Then you have to be willing to play the game, knowing for every winner, someone else must lose. Maybe we all want to be winners. . we can only be winners when we stop playing the game.

Incidently, why would someone like you, so sure of the truth, really mind how other people react? .. surely you don't mind what happens in the game, what happens is just what's happening. It's only during our reactive jerks to what's happening, that our own volition comes into play, by dealing the how we are going to react to reactions of what's happening, isn't that basically what we're all doing here? :wink:

What do you want, what do you expect, why give people the time and energy at all, why not just walk away from the perpretators, if you are so 100% faithful and certain of your belief?

Or do you play the game in the hope and determination of believing you can win any opposition over to your side of the argument. Is that your motive and plan, if not then why object to anything at all, why not just accept objection and be the better person?

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Dontaskme
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

Post by Dontaskme »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:52 am
RCSaunders wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:45 pm The human mind infected with religion is like the brain demented by drugs. Some handle it better than others, but all religious individuals are a little insane.

Here is specimen:
So this is somebody who says she's a "Theist" of some kind, but clearly has no regard at all for the words of Christ in Matthew 5:43 -- “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may prove yourselves to be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. ..." So even if this person actually had "enemies," her responsibility is to love them... and she thinks God's going to help her to hate people?

...and all "religions" are supposed to be dubbed "insanity" on the basis of her wing nut views?

Sorry...that's too silly for me. Not gonna play.
No thing, nothing ever forces you to play the game. You enter the mind game willingly and it becomes your own creative conception. You obviously like playing with your-self, for there is no other self but I. :wink: Just me, myself, and I

It even says so right here :arrow:
''There is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me. Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other. '' Isaiah 45:21-22.

God is just another word for Self. For whom other are we talking about. Even though I seek the Self I cannot find. Why, because it's empty. It really really is empty to the core. Why, because it's made out of the same substance as the space in which it appears.

Do you like playing this game with me? :D
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Dontaskme
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

Post by Dontaskme »

Image

Dear men and women, the real wizards of Oz. Pay no attention to the little man behind the curtain, pulling your strings.

Unshackle yourself from your imaginary hinges and be the unconditional freedom you always is, was, and ever will be. It's ok to err, because that too is part and parcel of all that is free to be. You could never have been any other way.

What-ever is beating you're heart, have faith in that only, for that is the only life giving happening that really matters.

Bye the way, we do not know how or what or why the heart beats for thee. Just that is does, everything else is a speculation, and not worth losing sleep over, or dying for.
Walker
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

Post by Walker »

Lacewing wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:33 pm
Walker wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:53 pm The bible, which says the way things are...
:lol: How many sources are there in human history that say the way things are? How many people and books and religions and philosophies and beliefs say the way things are? It's all the creation and interpretations of humans, based on their limited perspectives and needs at any given time, culture, place.

Humans, I think, make any idea of a god VERY SMALL and LIMITED, because in man's quest to walk beside gods and speak for them, he imagines them through himself, and elevates himself... rather than considering how vastly expansive beyond his own understanding any greater awareness and wholeness could be! Truly, why would any god be so limited OR need to be "known"? Because that's what MAN needs!!! To soothe his egos and fears, which he is typically incapable of fathoming beyond.
The bible is rather uncompromising about the way things are … and relativists just can’t stand that certainty.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

Post by Dontaskme »

Walker wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:23 am The bible is rather uncompromising about the way things are … and relativists just can’t stand that certainty.
What if 'the way things are' - the way they 'actually, really are' ...ARE uncompromisingly unwritten?

What if, what you are talking about here is a story that is dead and gone, what if the ever unknown present is the only reality that will ever exist for real?

What if you cannot stand that certainty?
uwot
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

Post by uwot »

henry quirk wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:14 pmI believe in God becuz of the apparent reality of free will in a deterministic universe.

I believe in a Creator becuz the human individual is autonomous in a deterministic reality.

There is a Maker and my chief evidence of Him is man's capacity for self-direction, his capacity to willfully bend and begin causal chains.
And who knows? Maybe we really can do as we please and god is the reason.
henry quirk wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:14 pmI believe in a moral undergirding to the world becuz no man accepts the leash.
Mr Can is proof that belief is false. Not only has he accepted the christian leash, he thinks it is his business to talk others into wearing it, which is why he and the god he rode in on can go fuck themselves with a dirty toilet brush. So when you say:
henry quirk wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:01 amThey despise his certainty, his faith, and since they can't erode his faith, they look to erode him.
You are wrong, at least in my case. Any belief that doesn't cause harm to others is fine by me and all part of life's rich tapestry - I like stories. But mealy mouthed apologists telling me I am irrational because I don't accept their crummy arguments, or that I wilfully deny what their god has made plain to me, is despicable. It is also dangerous: we can see the bottom of the slippery slope when apostates are beheaded in Saudi Arabia, and it is still within living memory that every member of the Nazi combined armed forces wore a buckle saying 'Gott mit uns' - God with us. The exception was the SS, whose motto 'Meine Ehre heist Treue' - My honour is loyalty, leads me neatly to the other major problem with theism generally and christianity in particular. It is the idea that the world is shit and one superman can save it. There are dictators and demagogues all over the planet and history that have exploited the demonstrable fact that many humans are only too willing to put on a leash that will lead them to some promised land. Many people believe this because the bible tells them it is so.
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

Post by uwot »

Walker wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:23 amThe bible is rather uncompromising about the way things are …
It's also rather wrong.
Walker wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:23 am...and relativists just can’t stand that certainty.
You've got this arse about tit. It is dogmatists who can't stand uncertainty.
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

Post by Walker »

Big bang theorists also ape the certainty of Genesis.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Religion Is Insanity

Post by Dontaskme »

Walker wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:55 am Big bang theorists also ape the certainty of Genesis.
It's still just a theory, a story, that no one is writing.

The only certainty is uncertainty.

As the story is apparently being written, it is dying in the exact same moment.

.
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