Does God have a Plan?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Dontaskme
Posts: 9977
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm

Re: Does God have a Plan?

Post by Dontaskme »

VVilliam wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:51 pm

Personally I think that the first step toward recovery is discovering that and dealing with it, by admitting it.
For me, there is no recovery from the human condition that has the capacity to LIE and deceive you. Trusting what could potentially lie to you, is a very bad game to play.


VVilliam wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:51 pmAppearances can be deceiving yes?
But there are ways of getting the dogs to stop barking and pay attention. It relation to human beings, they are human beings. As such, they require a different formula in relation to shutting up and listening. For starters it has to be really significantly interesting.
No human being can ever be trusted. If they are capable of lying, then there is no cure for that.


VVilliam wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:51 pmThat kinda talk reminds me of YHWH. He is presented as a being who doesn't think much of human beings. Maybe he has a point, but one also has to consider the Wise Wolves among the Dogs. I think YHWH wants to preserve those ones.
Judges 7:5
This to me is all carrot and stick baiting nonsense. Where we are forced to suffer for our reward. It's not a game worth playing.

I'll stick with the actual brutal cold hard reality - and endure it until the end, what choice do I have any way.
User avatar
VVilliam
Posts: 590
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:58 pm

Re: Does God have a Plan?

Post by VVilliam »

Dontaskme wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:38 am
VVilliam wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:51 pm

Personally I think that the first step toward recovery is discovering that and dealing with it, by admitting it.
For me, there is no recovery from the human condition that has the capacity to LIE and deceive you. Trusting what could potentially lie to you, is a very bad game to play.
Essentially we can only lie to ourselves, and there seems no reason to 'trust' anyone. Most importantly - if one is to 'trust' anyone, then one should at least trust oneself not to lie to oneself.


VVilliam wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:51 pmAppearances can be deceiving yes?
But there are ways of getting the dogs to stop barking and pay attention. It relation to human beings, they are human beings. As such, they require a different formula in relation to shutting up and listening. For starters it has to be really significantly interesting.
No human being can ever be trusted. If they are capable of lying, then there is no cure for that.
So in that, are you lying or telling the truth? And how can one tell?
VVilliam wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:51 pmThat kinda talk reminds me of YHWH. He is presented as a being who doesn't think much of human beings. Maybe he has a point, but one also has to consider the Wise Wolves among the Dogs. I think YHWH wants to preserve those ones.
Judges 7:5
This to me is all carrot and stick baiting nonsense. Where we are forced to suffer for our reward. It's not a game worth playing.

I'll stick with the actual brutal cold hard reality - and endure it until the end, what choice do I have any way.
You say that as if there are no options so just 'give up'. Your problem seems to be that you are stuck with what is, and have found no way to escape it so your world view forces you into a type of indifference. A type of fatalistic position where you would rather die and be no more than play the only game available to you. In that you are choosing not to identify with game or players etc... A bit like waking up to the realization you are involved in a game, having no idea how you got there and not even sure that dying will allow you to leave the game but hoping that it will anyway.

Problem being - of course - that the hope may turn out to be futile and upon death you still find yourself in the game anyway...your position is naturally enough, not a happy one.
Dontaskme
Posts: 9977
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm

Re: Does God have a Plan?

Post by Dontaskme »

VVilliam wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:36 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:38 am
VVilliam wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:51 pm

Personally I think that the first step toward recovery is discovering that and dealing with it, by admitting it.
For me, there is no recovery from the human condition that has the capacity to LIE and deceive you. Trusting what could potentially lie to you, is a very bad game to play.
Essentially we can only lie to ourselves, and there seems no reason to 'trust' anyone. Most importantly - if one is to 'trust' anyone, then one should at least trust oneself not to lie to oneself.
Yes, I agree with you, that seems reasonably intelligent. In the sense that we are all in this together, so for as long as we deceive and lie to others, the liar will also be caught up in it's own web of deceit.

Like this :arrow: We do not weave the web of life, we are merely a strand in it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves.


VVilliam wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:51 pmAppearances can be deceiving yes?

So in that, are you lying or telling the truth? And how can one tell?
Only you yourself can know whether you are lying or telling the truth. So long as you are true to yourself, your life will not be in conflict with others.
VVilliam wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:51 pm
You say that as if there are no options so just 'give up'. Your problem seems to be that you are stuck with what is, and have found no way to escape it so your world view forces you into a type of indifference. A type of fatalistic position where you would rather die and be no more than play the only game available to you.
Yes, that's exactly how it feels for me sometimes. .sometimes I just long for the state before I existed, sometimes I wish life wasn't happening and there was just pure non-existence for ever and ever and ever, and that none of us have to be born. Knowing what I know about what it is like to be a sentient creature, I would not choose to experience it again. But we are doing that choosing everytime we choose to make a baby, we are literally choosing to live again knowing how bad it can get. So for me, I'd rather not be born at all. But I was born, and that is why I came to the stark conclusion that there is no thing choosing to live this life...and that choosing was just an apparent illusion.

Think about it...if I personally didn't choose to be born, then neither did my parents, nor their parents..ad infinitum, no one can hold their turtle accountable for their birth.

VVilliam wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:51 pm In that you are choosing not to identify with game or players etc... A bit like waking up to the realization you are involved in a game, having no idea how you got there and not even sure that dying will allow you to leave the game but hoping that it will anyway.
That's exactly what I am hoping and thinking, yes.


VVilliam wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:51 pmProblem being - of course - that the hope may turn out to be futile and upon death you still find yourself in the game anyway...your position is naturally enough, not a happy one.
Yes, that's so true...but what if there is a way for us to pull the plug on ourselves, if we know we exist, then surely we can terminate our existence for good, if we come to the conclusion that the game is just not worth playing.. ?
User avatar
Lacewing
Posts: 4653
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:25 am

Re: Does God have a Plan?

Post by Lacewing »

Dontaskme wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 9:40 am what if there is a way for us to pull the plug on ourselves, if we know we exist, then surely we can terminate our existence for good, if we come to the conclusion that the game is just not worth playing.. ?
What if there's nothing wrong with existence... what if you DID choose to play... and what if your "I don't want to play" routine is just your way of playing an "I'm better than this" game?
Dontaskme
Posts: 9977
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm

Re: Does God have a Plan?

Post by Dontaskme »

Lacewing wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 3:11 am
Dontaskme wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 9:40 am what if there is a way for us to pull the plug on ourselves, if we know we exist, then surely we can terminate our existence for good, if we come to the conclusion that the game is just not worth playing.. ?
What if there's nothing wrong with existence... what if you DID choose to play... and what if your "I don't want to play" routine is just your way of playing an "I'm better than this" game?
Ah right on cue, a typical Lacewing response.

You are way off with your assumption. This has got nothing to do with playing the role of a someone who feels "I'm better than this" game.

I don't even want to experience the idea that I am better than this in the first place ... because so far, as I have witnessed in my life, life for the sentient feeling creature, is nothing but an endless round of ''Gladiator Wars''
It's not a game I want to keep playing quite frankly. The only improvement as far as I can see happening here, is a better Gladiator War.

Well it's just a personal opinion with me, knowing what I know now, while I'm here to experience and witness being a sentient feeling being. I've decided I simply do not want to play this game ever again, I'd rather have never been chosen to play full stop, I'm just not interested in pushing more coins through the slot machine of life, with the intention of there ever being the slightest hope and off chance that something better will come along. I'd rather just have never existed at all. Having said this, I do not begrudge others who like playing the game. That's ok and fine for them, but for me, I think it's stupid.
I've known this since I was 6/7 years old that this sentient life game is just absolutely bonkers.

.
User avatar
Lacewing
Posts: 4653
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:25 am

Re: Does God have a Plan?

Post by Lacewing »

Dontaskme wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:41 pm
Lacewing wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 3:11 am
Dontaskme wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 9:40 am what if there is a way for us to pull the plug on ourselves, if we know we exist, then surely we can terminate our existence for good, if we come to the conclusion that the game is just not worth playing.. ?
What if there's nothing wrong with existence... what if you DID choose to play... and what if your "I don't want to play" routine is just your way of playing an "I'm better than this" game?
Ah right on cue, a typical Lacewing response.
Right on cue? I haven't been here on the forum for months, and just had the thought to pop in. The topic "Does God have a Plan?" was ripe for comment. Does Bullwinkle Smoke Pot? It's just as nonsensical... from my view.
Dontaskme wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:41 pmYou are way off with your assumption.
How is it an assumption for me to ask "What if" questions?
Dontaskme wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:41 pmThis has got nothing to do with playing the role of a someone who feels "I'm better than this" game.
But you think "it's stupid" (as you say)... so are you NOT better than stupid?

I was just asking thought-provoking questions to provoke you. :-) What if WE DID CHOOSE THIS? And part of the requirement was to FORGET we chose this? In which case, FIGHTING AGAINST IT... claiming that it's stupid and not worth living... is just our dance on the stage. What if it feels stupid and not worth living because you don't know how to use it better? What if you CAME HERE to learn how to do so?

From my perspective, there is so much more potential to tap into -- how could there NOT be?

Do you really think that this manifestation of life is somehow separate from something beyond it? And that it's a big mistake that anyone is experiencing this?
Dontaskme
Posts: 9977
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm

Re: Does God have a Plan?

Post by Dontaskme »

Lacewing wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:34 am Right on cue? I haven't been here on the forum for months, and just had the thought to pop in.
:D I'm sorry, I was just being silly.
Lacewing wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:34 am The topic "Does God have a Plan?" was ripe for comment. Does Bullwinkle Smoke Pot? It's just as nonsensical... from my view.
I understand, yes I see what you mean. :)
Dontaskme wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:41 pmYou are way off with your assumption.
Lacewing wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:34 amHow is it an assumption for me to ask "What if" questions?
Sorry I thought you meant it personally. I thought you meant I said life was crap because it was I that thought I was better than a crap life.
Dontaskme wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:41 pmThis has got nothing to do with playing the role of a someone who feels "I'm better than this" game.
Lacewing wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:34 amBut you think "it's stupid" (as you say)... so are you NOT better than stupid?
I didn't see it that way. I did not think I was better, or deserved better than my own assumption that life is 'stupid' ..but I do understand what you are saying to me, so thanks.
Lacewing wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:34 amI was just asking thought-provoking questions to provoke you. :-) What if WE DID CHOOSE THIS? And part of the requirement was to FORGET we chose this? In which case, FIGHTING AGAINST IT... claiming that it's stupid and not worth living... is just our dance on the stage.
Yes, you are probably right, I think I could agree with that.

Lacewing wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:34 am What if it feels stupid and not worth living because you don't know how to use it better? What if you CAME HERE to learn how to do so?
I can't agree more, so thanks.
Lacewing wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:34 amFrom my perspective, there is so much more potential to tap into -- how could there NOT be?
I agree, so thanks for reminding me. Sometimes I get so bogged down with negativity that I totally lose sight of what could be acheived by the human being.
Lacewing wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:34 amDo you really think that this manifestation of life is somehow separate from something beyond it? And that it's a big mistake that anyone is experiencing this?
Sometimes I think it is all a really bad and big mistake, but then again, at the same time, mistakes are how improvements are made, so that's why I am always willing to listen to other voices here, including yours.
User avatar
Lacewing
Posts: 4653
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:25 am

Re: Does God have a Plan?

Post by Lacewing »

Dontaskme wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:50 am
Lacewing wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:34 amDo you really think that this manifestation of life is somehow separate from something beyond it? And that it's a big mistake that anyone is experiencing this?
Sometimes I think it is all a really bad and big mistake, but then again, at the same time, mistakes are how improvements are made, so that's why I am always willing to listen to other voices here, including yours.
Thanks. I listen too, and try to understand the implications of so much diversity, and to see the value throughout. I know you have many dances... as I do. Sometimes we see things when we interact with those dances.

Generally speaking...

I am intrigued by the rigidity of positions... insistence of "knowing" ultimate "truth"... and single-minded chants that so many of us humans get feverish with. There is so much of it on this forum. Such "small thinking", surely. Polishing platforms rather than genuine philosophical exploration. Much like religious limitation that blinds and strangles the broader potential for realizations and expansion, perhaps for fear of losing control or meaning or identity. Countless tightly-wound worlds that small humanoid gods manufacture to rule over. It's fascinating, yes?

Also, I am genuinely interested in understanding WHY and HOW people who believe in a god would think that this Universe/life is divisive and wrong? Doesn't it make more sense to see such thoughts as a human idea and manifestation? Perhaps out of fear or ego. Life on Earth is very difficult and horrific, no doubt. But it is also full of wonderous potential. ALL potential is on display and within reach. Magnificent, yes? So, what do WE do with that? What do we create with that? Do we lock onto stories... and then project and position ourselves based on those stories? Do our stories establish our identity? Why do we need an identity?
jayjacobus
Posts: 1000
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:45 pm

Re: Does God have a Plan?

Post by jayjacobus »

We are somewhere between a god and an ape. Does the ape think that it lives in a horrific world or does it accept its life as it is? Can the ape create fields of food, husband other animals, build cities, fly thru the air and more?

None of us can be THE god but with societies we can change the world forever.

Our egos are drivers that push us to succeed but also bedevil us with self affirmations which are often false.

What does God think of us? Are we pretenders to His/Her throne and judges of Job's accusations or are we slaves to the highest authority and determinism?

I am not meek unless meek means receptive of God but do I have to receive a God who turns His/Her back on me.?

Poor God who made us so that He/She might suffer our (my) judgments.

Many of the stories are true and that presents a problem but not for me.

Who is Satan? In God's eyes that might be us.
User avatar
VVilliam
Posts: 590
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:58 pm

Re: Does God have a Plan?

Post by VVilliam »

Both "God" and "Deify" seem to be matters aligned with the evolution of the human mind.

How [those who do] think about a creator being responsible for this universe generally transforms into a type of awe within the individual along the lines of IF there is indeed a creator mind behind the formation of this universe and life-forms on this planet THEN "Wow!".

It may even be the case the [assumed] creator mind did not intend for any of its incarnated creation to react the way that they did, but the resulting activities related to this might have been very interesting and IF that creator-mind saw it possible to use such a response in order to attempt to connect those other minds to the creator-mind in a manner which served as a device of communion, THEN the creator-mind would use such in order to 'make is so'...

The down-side to that of course, is that the creator mind would have to put up with being dressed up in all manner of attire [human belief systems re "God"] and work around/with that.

If that were the case then it would seem the creator-mind did not intend the creation for that purpose [to connect with the incarnate minds] but saw this as a possible type of sideline bonus which might occur. An interesting side-effect one could explore...more thoroughly ...

Part of the 'dressing up' of the creator-mind meant humans placed the effigy upon a pedestal/throne [somewhere 'on high'] and began worshipping it...apparently first through images of animals and then evolving into images of humans as humans established their dominance over the other planet creatures.

From a creators perspective this could be seen as harmless enough, except when it involved harm - such as with human sacrifice to ask for divine assistance for good crops etc...and through the dressing up of the creator mind in the costume of YHWH - this was regulated to animal sacrifice alone, and then with the advancement of human understanding, the last sacrifice of Christ in the form of the male human Jesus. A kind of "The buck stops here" occurrence because the creator-mind [perhaps yearning] wanted to be known for what it truly is, rather than for what humans dressed It up to 'look like'.

One cannot place a true image as to 'what the creator-mind looks like' because, as with all Mind, it is immaterial, and therefore does not 'look like' anything...which is why I refer to the Creator Mind as "It" rather than "he/she" - but even so "It" still denotes some 'form' and when speaking of The Mind, there is no form in which to point to...to show what "It" is...
User avatar
Luxin
Posts: 232
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:49 pm
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland

Re: Does God have a Plan?

Post by Luxin »

Absolutely. "God" (i.e. Nature or The Universe) evolved according to a built in rule:

It supports the good and phases out the bad (just as the body eliminates pus).

The fascinating thing is that that rule does NOT operate in accordance with any conscious being's will.

Nature knows no conscious being can be trusted, because of the existence of evil. There is intelligence in Nature ... this has led to the belief that Nature is a being like us.

It is The Great Law of Karma -- good begets good, bad begets bad -- that Nature runs on, and it's "built in." Really, the essence of "God" is Karma, a power which is beyond all human comprehension because it was working long before we made an appearance, which is also a lot longer ago than we think.

We are only tiny little proofs of the Great Divine Plan. We are not in control, not in the least.

Nature supports us if we're good and lets us destroy ourselves when we're not. That is awesome "self-service" Karma.

The devil sent me here, but while I was here.... As a good soul or ordinary mortal, I'm a servant of both good and evil.
Dontaskme
Posts: 9977
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm

Re: Does God have a Plan?

Post by Dontaskme »

Lacewing wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 3:13 pm
Generally speaking...

I am intrigued by the rigidity of positions... insistence of "knowing" ultimate "truth"... and single-minded chants that so many of us humans get feverish with. There is so much of it on this forum. Such "small thinking", surely. Polishing platforms rather than genuine philosophical exploration. Much like religious limitation that blinds and strangles the broader potential for realizations and expansion, perhaps for fear of losing control or meaning or identity. Countless tightly-wound worlds that small humanoid gods manufacture to rule over. It's fascinating, yes?
I think there are two truths, the relative and the absolute. The relative is of the ego, which is an appearance of the absolute. And then there is the absolute truth, which is of the absolute.

The ego is of the absolute, it's the relative absolute. As the absolute: Am I playing a role - OR - Am I the role I am playing ?
Lacewing wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 3:13 pmAlso, I am genuinely interested in understanding WHY and HOW people who believe in a god would think that this Universe/life is divisive and wrong? Doesn't it make more sense to see such thoughts as a human idea and manifestation? Perhaps out of fear or ego. Life on Earth is very difficult and horrific, no doubt. But it is also full of wonderous potential. ALL potential is on display and within reach. Magnificent, yes? So, what do WE do with that? What do we create with that? Do we lock onto stories... and then project and position ourselves based on those stories? Do our stories establish our identity? Why do we need an identity?
Why do we need an identity?

We need to play a role. We can choose freely which role we want to play. No role, no play. This wants to play, and so it plays.
Dontaskme
Posts: 9977
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm

Re: Does God have a Plan?

Post by Dontaskme »

VVilliam wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:05 pm
One cannot place a true image as to 'what the creator-mind looks like' because, as with all Mind, it is immaterial, and therefore does not 'look like' anything...which is why I refer to the Creator Mind as "It" rather than "he/she" - but even so "It" still denotes some 'form' and when speaking of The Mind, there is no form in which to point to...to show what "It" is...
The mind has no image of itself. And yet, can image an image imagined to suit itself. :idea:

What is IT? is why we say 'its' raining..or 'its' awful, or 'its' amazing..or 'its' nothing, or 'its' something.

This is IT
User avatar
Lacewing
Posts: 4653
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:25 am

Re: Does God have a Plan?

Post by Lacewing »

Luxin wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:55 am There is intelligence in Nature ... this has led to the belief that Nature is a being like us.

It is The Great Law of Karma -- good begets good, bad begets bad -- that Nature runs on, and it's "built in."

Nature supports us if we're good and lets us destroy ourselves when we're not. That is awesome "self-service" Karma.
Nicely said!
Dontaskme
Posts: 9977
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm

Re: Does God have a Plan?

Post by Dontaskme »

jayjacobus wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 5:25 pm We are somewhere between a god and an ape. Does the ape think that it lives in a horrific world or does it accept its life as it is?
Can the ape create fields of food, husband other animals, build cities, fly thru the air and more?
'' All our knowledge merely helps us to die a more painful death than the animals who know nothing. '' ( Maeterlinck )


jayjacobus wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 5:25 pmWho is Satan? In God's eyes that might be us.
The knower.
Post Reply