Biblical Hallucinations

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VVilliam
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Re: Biblical Hallucinations

Post by VVilliam »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:11 pm
VVilliam wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:30 pm
Do you think people have exactly the same experiences at exactly the same time, purely by coincidence and utterly ungoverned by a common, stable reality? Is that what you want us to suppose? :shock:
Are you therefore arguing that it is impossible for The Creator to make such happen?
Not at all, if He wanted to. I'm simply arguing that when twelve people all experience exactly the same thing, we don't ordinarily assume they are being deluded. We generally suspect hallucination only when one person "experiences" something that nobody else does. When many see the same thing, as in the feeding of the 5,000 for example, or when there are over 500 independent witnesses to the resurrection of a dead man, we would say that's no "hallucination" at all. And we would need an awfully persuasive argument to justify us in taking any other view.
Which is why I am now specifically going to focus upon the temptation of Christ, because it most fits with you critique above, as there were no witnesses, so is one of the better example of biblical mythology where the character [in this case Jesus] was the only one who witnessed the whole thing.
So let me pose the question again: when you had your "alternate reality" experience, did anybody else see what you saw? Were there a dozen on hand as witnesses? Was there even one?
Yes - there was at least one. Myself.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Biblical Hallucinations

Post by Immanuel Can »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:11 pm
VVilliam wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:30 pm
Are you therefore arguing that it is impossible for The Creator to make such happen?
Not at all, if He wanted to. I'm simply arguing that when twelve people all experience exactly the same thing, we don't ordinarily assume they are being deluded. We generally suspect hallucination only when one person "experiences" something that nobody else does. When many see the same thing, as in the feeding of the 5,000 for example, or when there are over 500 independent witnesses to the resurrection of a dead man, we would say that's no "hallucination" at all. And we would need an awfully persuasive argument to justify us in taking any other view.
So you get it? Most of the things in your alleged "list" are not things that could even plausibly be attributed to "alternate realities" or "hallucinations"? Fair enough.
Which is why I am now specifically going to focus upon the temptation of Christ, because it most fits with you critique above,
It's hard to see how. Are you going to find some way of showing that what Jesus Christ experience there was an "alternate reality" that nobody else could have seen? That would be hard to do, since there was nobody else there to witness it, and no part of the Biblical account attributes it either to a hallucination or to an alternate reality...

But have a go. What's your evidence?
So let me pose the question again: when you had your "alternate reality" experience, did anybody else see what you saw? Were there a dozen on hand as witnesses? Was there even one?
Yes - there was at least one. Myself.
"Witnesses," I said. Not "the alleged experiencer." I know the experiencer was you...you said so. I want to know if you have any way of knowing whether you were seeing things, or just "seeing things."

So the non-sarcastic answer is "No"? So far as you know, there was nobody present to confirm what you thought you were "seeing"?
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VVilliam
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Re: Biblical Hallucinations

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Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:17 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:11 pm
VVilliam wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:30 pm
Are you therefore arguing that it is impossible for The Creator to make such happen?
Not at all, if He wanted to. I'm simply arguing that when twelve people all experience exactly the same thing, we don't ordinarily assume they are being deluded. We generally suspect hallucination only when one person "experiences" something that nobody else does. When many see the same thing, as in the feeding of the 5,000 for example, or when there are over 500 independent witnesses to the resurrection of a dead man, we would say that's no "hallucination" at all. And we would need an awfully persuasive argument to justify us in taking any other view.
So you get it? Most of the things in your alleged "list" are not things that could even plausibly be attributed to "alternate realities" or "hallucinations"? Fair enough.
No. What I get is that we agree that it is possible for The Creator to inject such into any reality experience even in a 'for your eyes -but not your eyes - only' fashion.


Which is why I am now specifically going to focus upon the temptation of Christ, because it most fits with you critique above,
It's hard to see how. Are you going to find some way of showing that what Jesus Christ experience there was an "alternate reality" that nobody else could have seen?
Not really. Nobody else experienced it with him, except Satan...because Satan was a part of Jesus' experience.
But I am not saying that others couldn't have a similar experience...
Jesus was by himself in the desert so in that, whether some onlooker could have seen what went down, would be up to The Creators discretion.
But we do not know, for there is no known record of anyone else being there at the time it was happening.

That would be hard to do, since there was nobody else there to witness it, and no part of the Biblical account attributes it either to a hallucination or to an alternate reality...

But have a go. What's your evidence?
Do you think there is a difference between alternate reality and hallucination? If so, why?
So let me pose the question again: when you had your "alternate reality" experience, did anybody else see what you saw? Were there a dozen on hand as witnesses? Was there even one?
Yes - there was at least one. Myself.
"Witnesses," I said. Not "the alleged experiencer." I know the experiencer was you...you said so.
So you think that the one experiencing is not a witness to his own experience?
I want to know if you have any way of knowing whether you were seeing things, or just "seeing things."
Which leads me to ask again....Do you think there is a difference between alternate reality and hallucination? If so, why?
So the non-sarcastic answer is "No"? So far as you know, there was nobody present to confirm what you thought you were "seeing"?
Oh there was/is always someone. The Creator.

In one particular alternate experience I did share that with another Entity, but I do not know how you would go about questioning said entity for his side of that story. He was not human, but he was defiantly really in the experience - he was the leading character actually...
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Biblical Hallucinations

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VVilliam wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:55 pm Do you think there is a difference between alternate reality and hallucination? If so, why?
Sure, there's a difference. A "reality" of any kind has a rational cause, an integrity of its own, and can be experienced by more than one person. A hallucination can happen spontaneously, is unpredictable, irrational, idiosyncratic and unstable, and can only be experienced by one person.
So you think that the one experiencing is not a witness to his own experience?
I think that if you did have more than one person to witness it, then you could call upon him to confirm it for you. Barring that, you could reproduce the experience reliably. If you can do neither, then "hallucination" is a good bet.
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VVilliam
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Re: Biblical Hallucinations

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Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:41 pm
VVilliam wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:55 pm Do you think there is a difference between alternate reality and hallucination? If so, why?
Sure, there's a difference. A "reality" of any kind has a rational cause, an integrity of its own, and can be experienced by more than one person. A hallucination can happen spontaneously, is unpredictable, irrational, idiosyncratic and unstable, and can only be experienced by one person.
So you think that the one experiencing is not a witness to his own experience?
I think that if you did have more than one person to witness it, then you could call upon him to confirm it for you. Barring that, you could reproduce the experience reliably. If you can do neither, then "hallucination" is a good bet.
Therefore one can take what you think and [with that in mind] examine the temptation of Christ as it is presented.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Biblical Hallucinations

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VVilliam wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:57 pm Therefore one can take what you think and [with that in mind] examine the temptation of Christ as it is presented.
I'm still waiting for you to show the relevance to "alternate realities." But maybe you'll get to that.
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VVilliam
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Re: Biblical Hallucinations

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Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 11:33 pm
VVilliam wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:57 pm Therefore one can take what you think and [with that in mind] examine the temptation of Christ as it is presented.
I'm still waiting for you to show the relevance to "alternate realities." But maybe you'll get to that.

Biblical accounts:
Matthew 4:1-11 wrote: Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.

And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,

And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.
Mark 1:12-13 wrote: And immediately the Spirit driveth him into the wilderness.

And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.
Luke 4:1 -13 wrote: And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.

And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.

And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence:

For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee:

And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.
Characters involved in story verses [bullet points]:

Jesus: [in the physical universe in the form of a human male]

Satan: [unknown form from another [alternate] universe]

Angels: [unknown form from another [alternate] universe]

Possible Contributing factors to the possibility of Jesus having had an hallucination:

Not having eaten for more than a month.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Biblical Hallucinations

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VVilliam wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:56 am Possible Contributing factors to the possibility of Jesus having had an hallucination:
Not having eaten for more than a month.
I notice that even you felt compelled to put the word "possible" twice in the mere suggestion. So I'm thinking you don't feel very sure of that argument.
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VVilliam
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Re: Biblical Hallucinations

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Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:27 am
VVilliam wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:56 am Possible Contributing factors to the possibility of Jesus having had an hallucination:
Not having eaten for more than a month.
I notice that even you felt compelled to put the word "possible" twice in the mere suggestion. So I'm thinking you don't feel very sure of that argument.
I am simply saying that there is a recognizable reason as to why one might think Jesus had hallucinated. Do you agree that there is? If not, the ball is in your court if you have reason to argue that Jesus was not hallucinating.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Biblical Hallucinations

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VVilliam wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:05 am ...one might think ...
"One might think?" :shock:

Well, "one might think" a great many things. But one might well be totally wrong, unless "one" has some evidence that makes that conclusion right. And here, what we have, it would seem, is a very circumstantial guess, devoid of all evidence.
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VVilliam
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Re: Biblical Hallucinations

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Short of having a way to travel back in time and witness the event, all are short on evidence.
So are you going to deny that someone who hasn't eaten for over a month would not hallucinate?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Biblical Hallucinations

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VVilliam wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:14 pm So are you going to deny that someone who hasn't eaten for over a month would not hallucinate?
As you say...you have no evidence of that. And you have even less of a way of knowing, since Jesus Christ would not be your typical person. You're drawing a blank there.
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VVilliam
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Re: Biblical Hallucinations

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Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:23 pm
VVilliam wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:14 pm So are you going to deny that someone who hasn't eaten for over a month would not hallucinate?
You have no evidence of that.
One only has to googles it and therein find the evidence which supports that this is what happens when humans do not have access to food.
And you have even less of a way of knowing, since Jesus Christ would not be your typical person.
Yet you make accusation that all other 'typical persons' who do not have supporting witnesses are therefore hallucinating.

I see.

What about individuals who today are likewise connected with Jesus as claiming to be his followers. What about you? Is that why you haven't had any alternative experiences? Because you don't hallucinate? Because you think yourself a 'typical person' [your words]

The other aspect of Jesus' alternate experience [which may have been triggered by lack of food] was that he faced his particular shadow/demon and the temptations put before him were those he most had to deal with.

His mission was to change the whole world. His demon offered him the world. Jesus had some old time religion to throw back at his demon, his demon couldn't get through that wall - his demon left him to his fate.
The angels then came into his situation and put Jesus back together again.

Remembering as we should, that angels and demons are from an alternate reality simulation [different universe experienced as real] which apparently can interact with our own.

All said and done all of this is happening in the Mind of The Creator.

And that is the spirit which prompted Jesus to go out to the desert with nary a thing to eat, in the first place. "Off you go laddy"...

"But I just had a bath...I will get dirty"

"Aye - that ye will Laddy. That ye will."
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Biblical Hallucinations

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VVilliam wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:39 pm Yet you make accusation that all other 'typical persons' who do not have supporting witnesses are therefore hallucinating.
A twist.

Again, what I said was that 12 men do not simultaneously hallucinate the same event. I also said that a person who has an "alternate reality" that nobody else sees (when others should be able to, if it was real) is most probably hallucinating.

And anybody should agree with both claims.
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VVilliam
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Re: Biblical Hallucinations

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Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:14 pm
VVilliam wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:39 pm Yet you make accusation that all other 'typical persons' who do not have supporting witnesses are therefore hallucinating.
A twist.

Again, what I said was that 12 men do not simultaneously hallucinate the same event.


Ahoy.

Have you not noticed we have moved on to the examining the one man [Jesus] and his alternate experience which occurred without any witnesses?
I also said that a person who has an "alternate reality" that nobody else sees (when others should be able to, if it was real) is most probably hallucinating.
And you implied that Jesus 'most probably wasn't' hallucinating because he was most certainly not obviously "your typical person"

He had his own demon to deal with.

As we all do - yes even Immanuel can if he wanted to. But he cloaks himself in letters signifying learnedness which does not require having to experience alternate universes. [and thus have even more knowledge in which to learn by] ...
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