The tree of knowledge

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Dontaskme
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Re: The tree of knowledge

Post by Dontaskme »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:08 pm
But there's this, D. : Why would we think "I don't know..." translates into "There is nothing to know..."? Were that so, there would be no such thing as learning, because learning always takes us from what we don't know (yet) to what we do know. And I assume you're not saying you don't believe you can learn anything...
Again, you seem to be missing my point.

I know there is learning, but I'm not talking about learning. I'm talking about the meaningless nondual nature of reality, and who is learning anyway, that would still be no thing learning, or it would be no thing believing it is a thing learning something.

So yeah, it's a fun game to play for a lot of believers, yeah, lets learn something while we are here, it's not like there is anything else to do here, might as well do something with our time while we wait to grow old and die, leaving all our knowledge archived within our brain, only to go wither into a big pile of empty nothing at death.

Some of us figure out this before we die, I figured it out at the age of 7 years old that this was such a stupid game that saw no winners, only losers.

Every new born baby has this silly game imposed upon them by their parents because they've decided they like to play the game, so they want the game to continue through their offspring, even though when those new beings are born, they might even curse their parents for having them because they are able to see through the game at a very early age, like I did. My main issue, is the pain problem. Why would anyone knowing how awful pain is, then think it is a good idea to impose it on another being that does not yet exist, and never asks to exist in the first place...this is what I have come to realise about the futility of life. If life was meant to be a good idea,then there would not still be all this relentless pain and torture present after millions of years, life is still the same as it ever was, is, and ever will be.





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Immanuel Can
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Re: The tree of knowledge

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Dontaskme wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:10 pm ...might as well do something with our time while we wait to grow old and die, leaving all our knowledge archived within our brain, only to go wither into a big pile of empty nothing at death.

Some of us figure out this before we die, I figured it out at the age of 7 years old that this was such a stupid game that saw no winners, only losers.
But now my second question: you don't believe any of this really exists. So you've lost this realization that your 7 year old self had, yes?
My main issue, is the pain problem. Why would anyone knowing how awful pain is, then think it is a good idea to impose it on another being that does not yet exist, and never asks to exist in the first place...this is what I have come to realise about the futility of life. If life was meant to be a good idea,then there would not still be all this relentless pain and torture present after millions of years, life is still the same as it ever was, is, and ever will be.
Wait a minute: before we go further, could you explain? Does any of what you just said actually ever happen? Is it real? Or is it all a "dream" or "actions with no actors"?
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Dontaskme
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Re: The tree of knowledge

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Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:39 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:10 pm ...might as well do something with our time while we wait to grow old and die, leaving all our knowledge archived within our brain, only to go wither into a big pile of empty nothing at death.

Some of us figure out this before we die, I figured it out at the age of 7 years old that this was such a stupid game that saw no winners, only losers.
But now my second question: you don't believe any of this really exists. So you've lost this realization that your 7 year old self had, yes?
My main issue, is the pain problem. Why would anyone knowing how awful pain is, then think it is a good idea to impose it on another being that does not yet exist, and never asks to exist in the first place...this is what I have come to realise about the futility of life. If life was meant to be a good idea,then there would not still be all this relentless pain and torture present after millions of years, life is still the same as it ever was, is, and ever will be.
Wait a minute: before we go further, could you explain? Does any of what you just said actually ever happen? Is it real? Or is it all a "dream" or "actions with no actors"?
Yes, all our apparent knowledge is within the artificial dream of separation.

Knowledge only ever points to the illusory nature of existence, in that it appears to be happening to a someone, and that too is just what's happening...in other words it's totally unknowable, and in that unknowable emerges a phantom knower.

Many people understand this, but it you want to reject it IC...that's perfectly ok to do so, for that too is no thing rejecting what it cannot understand.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: The tree of knowledge

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Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:39 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 8:00 pm My main issue, is the pain problem. Why would anyone knowing how awful pain is, then think it is a good idea to impose it on another being that does not yet exist, and never asks to exist in the first place...this is what I have come to realise about the futility of life. If life was meant to be a good idea,then there would not still be all this relentless pain and torture present after millions of years, life is still the same as it ever was, is, and ever will be.
Wait a minute: before we go further, could you explain? Does any of what you just said actually ever happen? Is it real? Or is it all a "dream" or "actions with no actors"?
Yes, all our apparent knowledge is within the artificial dream of separation.
Okay, so here is what you really have to be saying:

"Pain is not awful. It's unreal. It's never been imposed on anyone, especially a being that does not exist and never will, and the nothing that never existed never will ask to exist in the first place. Life isn't futile; it's non-existent. There is no relentless pain or torture, and no millions of years, and life never was in the first place, and never will be."

Is that really what you meant? :shock:
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Dontaskme
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Re: The tree of knowledge

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Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 8:23 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:39 pm Wait a minute: before we go further, could you explain? Does any of what you just said actually ever happen? Is it real? Or is it all a "dream" or "actions with no actors"?
Yes, all our apparent knowledge is within the artificial dream of separation.
Okay, so here is what you really have to be saying:

"Pain is not awful. It's unreal. It's never been imposed on anyone, especially a being that does not exist and never will, and the nothing that never existed never will ask to exist in the first place. Life isn't futile; it's non-existent. There is no relentless pain or torture, and no millions of years, and life never was in the first place, and never will be."

Is that really what you meant? :shock:
There's just thoughts shooting from out from what seems to be a 'me' and these thoughts are transformed into words that appear to look like they have some meaning attached creating a dialog/story made of accumulated knowledge of what it feels like to be a sentient creature who is apparently aware of sensation, and knowing that the sensation of pain is a really awful experience. And in that knowing, it can then decide to not impose the same experience upon more future sentient creatures, knowing that they too will know sensation and be made to endure it. Knowledge also informs the human sentient creature how sentient babies are made, and so a wise choice can be made to opt out of the process of making more life forms. But it seems there is a taste and tolerance for pain and suffering and torture,so life for human sentient creatures go on.

The above message is a story told and acted by no thing appearing as a dream which is believed to be real, by no thing. No thing is making anything happen, it's all just what's happening.
Waking dream is very similar to experiencing nightly dreams when upon waking from the dream, it becomes known to no one that nothing happened in the dream, even though the dream was known to have happened and seemed very real. . again, to no one, in that there's just what's happening.
Another example would be during the observation of tv films - the movie feels real to the watcher, even though it's just a film, but the images in the film are able to trigger emotions to arise in the subject watching such as anger, sadness, fear, and excitment and even love, and pleasure..etc...Life is a dream dreamt by no one. It's a real illusion apparently..so it seems.

Anyway, I'm just babbling...sorry.
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Re: The tree of knowledge

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Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:39 pm Wait a minute: before we go further, could you explain? Does any of what you just said actually ever happen? Is it real? Or is it all a "dream" or "actions with no actors"?
I personally don't know if life is real or it's unreal. I'm just here.

I know I am here, but that's all I can know about this being here.

I do not know how I am or why I am or from where I came from. Except what knowledge informs me. Where does knowledge come from? I do not know. . except to say it was passed over to be from another - and that other had their knowledge passed to them...ad infinitum...


Right now, I just know that I am here now. That's it, that's all I can know, everything else is just a story, that arises in this I am - the story is what has been passed onto me in the form of knowledge by another who also had a story that was passed onto them in the form of knowledge...ad-infinitum...so it seems like every story is an imposition upon what is already being known as the mystery of I am.

So what am I apart from an imposed story ?

Am I some thing or am I no thing. How can I know the difference? If I'm no thing then I cannot be any thing other than that. If I am some thing then I cannot be any thing other than that.

If I am some thing, then as a some thing I am consenting to being. If I am no thing then there is no thing consenting to being here.
If I am some thing then I am the sole identity of my own existence by consent, I am all knowing and consenting to every thing that happens here. And if I am some thing who is self consenting, then I can also do the opposite and consent to not-exist by choosing not to be born.

Do you see a dilemma with this?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: The tree of knowledge

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Dontaskme wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:23 am
Is that really what you meant? :shock:
Anyway, I'm just babbling...sorry.
Well, I asked a specific question, and got no specific answer. I don't know that that's "babbling," but it's not very forthcoming.
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Dontaskme
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Re: The tree of knowledge

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Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 5:39 pm
Well, I asked a specific question, and got no specific answer. I don't know that that's "babbling," but it's not very forthcoming.
Maybe you should listen harder. But it's seems you are not hearing what's being discussed. You've made that perfectly clear, that's for sure.

I've given plenty of answers to all your questions.

So I guess we're just about cooked.

I meant what I meant. .whether what I meant has any meaning, or no meaning for you. Is quite frankly your business. I'm not going to change my meaning just so it's suits up with your own model. If the cap fits.....you know what to do.


If you want to talk about education, general knowledge, and all things related to the intellectual brain of archived data.
Then you are talking to the wrong person. You and I will not get anywhere on that subject. I'm simply not interested in that side of the brain/mind body subject.

Anyone can be a person of knowing/knowledge.
But no one can be a no one. . < that's the hardest knowledge to unlearn.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: The tree of knowledge

Post by Immanuel Can »

Dontaskme wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:24 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 5:39 pm Well, I asked a specific question, and got no specific answer. I don't know that that's "babbling," but it's not very forthcoming.
Maybe you should listen harder.
I read this, too. Still no answer.
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Re: The tree of knowledge

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Dontaskme wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:43 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:39 pm Wait a minute: before we go further, could you explain? Does any of what you just said actually ever happen? Is it real? Or is it all a "dream" or "actions with no actors"?
I personally don't know if life is real or it's unreal. I'm just here.

I know I am here, but that's all I can know about this being here.

I do not know how I am or why I am or from where I came from. Except what knowledge informs me. Where does knowledge come from? I do not know. . except to say it was passed over to be from another - and that other had their knowledge passed to them...ad infinitum...


Right now, I just know that I am here now. That's it, that's all I can know, everything else is just a story, that arises in this I am - the story is what has been passed onto me in the form of knowledge by another who also had a story that was passed onto them in the form of knowledge...ad-infinitum...so it seems like every story is an imposition upon what is already being known as the mystery of I am.

So what am I apart from an imposed story ?

Am I some thing or am I no thing. How can I know the difference? If I'm no thing then I cannot be any thing other than that. If I am some thing then I cannot be any thing other than that.

If I am some thing, then as a some thing I am consenting to being. If I am no thing then there is no thing consenting to being here.
If I am some thing then I am the sole identity of my own existence by consent, I am all knowing and consenting to every thing that happens here. And if I am some thing who is self consenting, then I can also do the opposite and consent to not-exist by choosing not to be born.

Do you see a dilemma with this?

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you know what you experience that's what you know, you don't know what some one tells you, you only experience them telling you but you don't know what it is that they may have told you.

they may tell you about skydiving but that doesn't mean you know skydiving.

fyi, you are here to execute God's Judgement, and that judgement is Life. its man's own judgement that is death and results in death. man is given God's place in the earth to execute His judgement in the earth. hence the religious hoopla about original sin and separation from God and obligation to God bla bla bla.

should you read it read the story in the garden carefully. God made the man then made the garden then put the man in the garden under an agreement , also known as a covenant or commandment.

the serpent convinces the female that God isn't to be trusted and she believes the serpent and they go for broke on being judges of what is good and evil just like gods, because it is God who is the judge of what is good and evil for His creation and the creatures therein, no exceptions. hence the delusional concept of being the judge of what is good and evil, and man's judgement results in death. then God lets them continue in the flesh but they have died of the life they had before the tree. which is a son of God.

so if you want to whine about not knowing, its only because you refuse to believe, and hold onto being your own judge of what is good and evil. but again that is the view from the God of Israel perspective.
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Re: The tree of knowledge

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A person cannot think about dying without words for dying. It is words that bring knowledge and the tree of "words" creates a future death.

Living without words is accepting life.
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Re: The tree of knowledge

Post by VVilliam »

bahman wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:23 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:47 am
bahman wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 8:48 pm The tree of knowledge is a symbol of a situation that God purposefully put Adam in a sinful situation and wait until sin happens. So He could have His grand design plan.
But how would Adam have known otherwise what a sinful situation was if God hadn't made available the possibility to experience what a sinful situation would be like?

The point being made here, is how would any man or woman become aware of the experience of knowledge at all without first tasting the actual experience of what knowledge is and means.

If they had not become aware of what is conceptual knowledge, then they would have remained in their ignorant original natural state of being pure awareness, without knowledge of separation, without ego, or being aware of having the sense of a self.

Is there a problem with having a grand design or plan? Can a house be built without planning and designing it first?

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If testing the fruit is necessary for understanding including the understanding of the nature of sin then why God punished Adam and Eve. They were ignorant before testing.
One is best not to invest in thinking the story is based on fact.

Rather it is a blurry reflection of ancient human thinking and ways of being entertained by stories around campfires in the dark of night. Much like we do today in the warmth of our lounges, in front of the telly ... we all love a good story...not that I am claiming the bible account is a good story - I am confident that the original stories would have been filled with details which would have been omitted from the written versions...once humans learned how to encode the sounds they made, into a written language...
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Re: The tree of knowledge

Post by VVilliam »

Impenitent wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:21 pm if knowledge was actually from a tree, wouldn't you expect squirrels to remember where they hid their nuts?

-Imp
Whereas humans appear not to hide theirs at all.
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Re: The tree of knowledge

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bahman wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:23 pm
We don't punish innocent. God did. That is one of my problems. The other problem is mentioned in OP. Why put people in sinful situations in order to test them. God for example could give knowledge for free. Why bother doing it another way.
Agreed. The bible is woefully bare on the details.

One has to understand that the reason for this is because religion comes from culture and the stories made up around campfires became popular and reasonable explanations for 'why' folk were suffering the environment of the physical universe.

Nowadays we know just how vast that environment is and how insignificant in size the planet we occupy is in relation to the rest of the universe...and how alone we actually really are...we even make up stories about aliens and spacefaring to keep our spirits up.

Looking around, it is hard not to think we are imprisoned and that a small percentage of the inmates happen to control a large portion of the prison...through the systems created through culture that and its religions...

Bat-shit crazy circumstance without a doubt...but interesting all the same - well 'written' as it were - by each of our individual stories all woven together.

It is truly amazing what humans can and have achieved in such a short period of time. The knowledge was inevitable and - as it has worked out - essential...
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Re: The tree of knowledge

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Dontaskme wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:31 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:02 pm We don't punish innocent. God did. That is one of my problems.
No one would ever punish the innocent. That's why small children are not sent to prison, they have not evolved the knowledge of what's acceptable and what isn't, they lack the life experience to understand the implications of what harming a sentient creature means. And part of why that is is because they have not yet become aware they are a separate self yet. Until they reach the age of self realisation they are pretty much like an animal, innocent of sin.
You've got to look at the problem through your own thought processing mechanism and with your own eyes. Do you see a God punishing humans or do you see humans punishing humans? only a human aware of itself as a separate entity can be guilty of committing wrongful doing...can you see this?
Remembering the civilization humans had to create, we can 'recall' a time before this, when children were indeed judged not to be innocent because innocence got one killed. So in that we can understand why things from those times were written the way that they were...

bahman wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:02 pmThe other problem is mentioned in OP. Why put people in sinful situations in order to test them. God for example could give knowledge for free. Why bother doing it another way.
'Test' just means being well aware of an event has taken place or having happened, and you are the ultimate evidence of what you have witnessed. Knowledge becomes available to you as and when an event happens in realtime, in your immediate awareness, there is no more direct evidence than that self evidence, and is why you are always this immediate living testimony of knowledge.

Now, you cannot know something before you know it, first of all, you cannot know fire will burn you until you put your hand in it. Once you've tested that fire is bad through knowledge, you have now become aware that fire hurts you, and so surely enough the testing will have informed you to know not to put your hand in the fire ever again, because now you know not to do it. It's the same with all of your actions, they will carry consequences, and is why knowledge is important to you, so that you will know what and what not to do. You are always free to choose to do good or bad actions, but you are never forced to do them...you are essentially free to do what you want, no one is forcing you to do anything in life. The onus and responsibility is on you and you alone, to know what to do, and that's why knowledge is important, it informs you.

Knowledge is duality, it's identifying with our thoughts to be actual and real. It's knowing fire hurts us, and so that is why it is wrong to hurt others, because we know it's not a nice experience.
And the sibling of innocence is ignorance...they seem joined at the hip. Dangerous in those days were these two...parents simply would have needed to impress upon the children the importance of knowing this... hurting others gave them a fighting chance of surviving into their adulthood. In less civilized cultures, those who did the hurting were willing to take that to the limit in order to maintain their status and control over said culture...some bullies are worse than others...but the bully is essential to the outcome of doing something with the knowledge rather than dying out because the situation is all too much to bear...
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