The tree of knowledge

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: The tree of knowledge

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bahman wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:37 pm I am talking about this: “Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to turn a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; nd a person’s enemies will be the members of his household." (Matt. 10:34-36), and again, "Now brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. And you will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved." (Matt. 10:21-22)
I know. You're misreading it. It's devoid of any claim that Christians ought to cause that to happen. It will happen, but only because the higher allegiance to God will cause those who have other allegiances to hate.

But so much for the idea that "unity" is always a great idea. No doubt cultists, Red Guards and Nazi stormtroopers had plenty of unity...it would have been much better for us all if they had not.
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Re: The tree of knowledge

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Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:43 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:37 pm I am talking about this: “Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to turn a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; nd a person’s enemies will be the members of his household." (Matt. 10:34-36), and again, "Now brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. And you will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved." (Matt. 10:21-22)
I know. You're misreading it. It's devoid of any claim that Christians ought to cause that to happen. It will happen, but only because the higher allegiance to God will cause those who have other allegiances to hate.

But so much for the idea that "unity" is always a great idea. No doubt cultists, Red Guards and Nazi stormtroopers had plenty of unity...it would have been much better for us all if they had not.
Ahan, so that is your interpretation since I cannot see anything about red guard and nazi there.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: The tree of knowledge

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bahman wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:10 pm Ahan, so that is your interpretation since I cannot see anything about red guard and nazi there.
No, the Nazis and the Red Guard are just examples of "unity." And not of any good "unity," obviously. I only refer to them to make the point that "unity" is not an automatic good, or an end-itself. One can be very "unified" while pursuing an evil cause.
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Re: The tree of knowledge

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Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:17 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:10 pm Ahan, so that is your interpretation since I cannot see anything about red guard and nazi there.
No, the Nazis and the Red Guard are just examples of "unity." And not of any good "unity," obviously. I only refer to them to make the point that "unity" is not an automatic good, or an end-itself. One can be very "unified" while pursuing an evil cause.
But He said that He is not coming for peace! He is not mentioning bad people either. Just people generally.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: The tree of knowledge

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bahman wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:19 pm But He said that He is not coming for peace! He is not mentioning bad people either. Just people generally.
Take a look at what he says in the context of Matthew 10. You'll see exactly who He's speaking about, and when, and why.
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Re: The tree of knowledge

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Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:53 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:19 pm But He said that He is not coming for peace! He is not mentioning bad people either. Just people generally.
Take a look at what he says in the context of Matthew 10. You'll see exactly who He's speaking about, and when, and why.
There is a gap between 10:20 and 10:21.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: The tree of knowledge

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bahman wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:03 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:53 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:19 pm But He said that He is not coming for peace! He is not mentioning bad people either. Just people generally.
Take a look at what he says in the context of Matthew 10. You'll see exactly who He's speaking about, and when, and why.
There is a gap between 10:20 and 10:21.
That would be a space for a heading, I'm thinking. Those are not in the original manuscripts, so don't worry about them. They're only there for convenience.
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Dontaskme
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Re: The tree of knowledge

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Don't you see how...the belief in a God is what divides humanity?
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:27 pmI hope it does. It should. The truth always seems to do that. And it's the most important issue in the universe.
The division is indirectly caused by the false idea that the ''truth'' belongs to an individual person. My reasoning says that ''truth'' is not an ''owned truth'', but there is only TRUTH and that every thing and no thing is truth. Truth is always what is happening, whether it be an evil or a good action, it will be a truth because it's actually happening as witnessed. Is it true that an evil act is being commited? yes, is it true that a good action is being commited? yes as witnessed. This is how knowledge works. It's known that evil actions are true as witnessed, same goes for good actions are true as witnessed.

Religion can get complicated when it points to the existence of a human and God relationship. That belief is a division right there. We cannot blame human reasoning for working out that a human and God relationship is obviously from a knowledge point of view implying there is a division.
That's why the nondualist speakers arrived on the scene, to try and clean us the apparent mess made by the God and man relationship religion.


Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:27 pm This is why Jesus said,

“Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to turn a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; nd a person’s enemies will be the members of his household." (Matt. 10:34-36), and again, "Now brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. And you will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved." (Matt. 10:21-22)

These are not my words, and not my authority. I do not claim that they are. But I believe the words, and acknowledge the Authority.
Yes, you are just identifying with your own man made conformation bias, you read something that is written, and then you decide whether your belief is compatible with the script you are reading. Can't you see if the script you are reading are compatible with what you know to be true, then it's as if you yourself wrote that scripture.


The human hand held the pen that penned the words that is scripture IC... so all you are doing is identifying with your own ideas.

You cannot just say, they are not my ideas but God's because that creates an artificial division that's just not there in reality. So this is why Nondual literature makes more sense. However, it only makes sense to the truely open reader, not the ego character who's only desire is what's in this for me type of attitude, like eternal life for example.

I mean what on earth is eternal life for an individual ego ? how does that work? that does not make any rational sense. And yet you bleat on and on about wanting these discussions to make rational sense. . see the hypocrisy?
How does Jesus was in Mary before Joseph supposed to make rational sense to you, me or anyone else?

The way I interpret that statement...goes something like :arrow: An immaculate conception, in so far as there is no one living life, and that life is living itself which is actually true. There is only life living itself. And that which is growing the grass is also growing you.
No thing can know it knows, there is only things known...aka conceptually in this conception. That is what is meant by knowledge...it's in the dream of separation, the dream is real enough, simply because there is an awareness that the dream is happening. But the awareness is the same awareness in every creature, so it's not that the creature owns the awareness, the awareness owns the sentient creature.

Knowledge is simply in the dream of separation, it's an artificial divide mannie, because the dreamer is inseparable from the dream.

So in the dream, we can know right from wrong, good from bad, and we can be responsible for each good or bad action as we know them to be as we experience their consequences by direct experience of them, because only in the dream can we understand causes and their effects. And this is what's known as the human condition, a world of unconditional conditions.

Sorry for the longs posts, but this takes ages to explain, so I'll leave it there for now. :D

Anyways, I always enjoy discussing with you mannie. I know you are an intelligent person. I like engaging with intelligent people.

I like discussing with bahman as well, for this character is also easy to talk with.


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Immanuel Can
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Re: The tree of knowledge

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Dontaskme wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 11:01 am The division is indirectly caused by the false idea that the ''truth'' belongs to an individual person.
Division is good, when it's over the truth. People ought to take truth seriously, and since others do not, that's going to create divisions. But they're good divisions. It would not be good if we were unified in delusion.
...you read something that is written, and then you decide whether your belief is compatible with the script you are reading.

That's exactly what one should do: hear the words of God, and decide where you stand.
You cannot just say, they are not my ideas but God's because that creates an artificial division
Again, division is good. It means people are taking the truth seriously, and are not turning off their brains. Hostility is not good. Violence is not good. And conformity is not good. But division...that can be very healthy. It just has to stay polite, and continue the discourse.
An immaculate conception,...
Well, I'm afraid you're confused.

In theology, the term "virgin birth" applies to Jesus Christ. The term "immaculate conception" is supposed to apply to Mary -- but it's an idea that only the Catholics and a few others hold, and it's not based on any Scripture, and in fact, contradicts the Word of God. So there was no "immaculate conception." See the Catholic site: https://www.catholic.com/tract/immacula ... assumption. Did you mean "virgin birth"?
Anyways, I always enjoy discussing with you mannie. I know you are an intelligent person. I like engaging with intelligent people.
Thank you. I do what I can. But I cannot do what Immanuel can. :wink:
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Re: The tree of knowledge

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Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:22 pm
Division is good, when it's over the truth. People ought to take truth seriously, and since others do not, that's going to create divisions. But they're good divisions. It would not be good if we were unified in delusion.
Yes, I totally understand that and agree with that.
...you read something that is written, and then you decide whether your belief is compatible with the script you are reading.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:22 pmThat's exactly what one should do: hear the words of God, and decide where you stand.
Well, I'm not sure they are the words of God. I can only understand this on a human psychological level - I mean what has been our own direct experience through knowledge that we have acquired due to our inherited conditions. Like the apple doesn't fall far from the tree analogy.
You cannot just say, they are not my ideas but God's because that creates an artificial division
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:22 pmAgain, division is good. It means people are taking the truth seriously, and are not turning off their brains. Hostility is not good. Violence is not good. And conformity is not good. But division...that can be very healthy. It just has to stay polite, and continue the discourse.
I agree with that.
An immaculate conception,...
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:22 pmWell, I'm afraid you're confused.

In theology, the term "virgin birth" applies to Jesus Christ. The term "immaculate conception" is supposed to apply to Mary -- but it's an idea that only the Catholics and a few others hold, and it's not based on any Scripture, and in fact, contradicts the Word of God. So there was no "immaculate conception." See the Catholic site: https://www.catholic.com/tract/immacula ... assumption. Did you mean "virgin birth"?
Yeah, I probably am confused between the ideas of ''virgin birth'' and ''immaculate conception'' so you are right to point that out.
Thanks for that link by the way, I'll check it out. I just hear about these terminologies and think they mean the same thing. But you have pointed out that they do not.
Anyways, I always enjoy discussing with you mannie. I know you are an intelligent person. I like engaging with intelligent people.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:22 pmThank you. I do what I can. But I cannot do what Immanuel can. :wink:
Lol :D
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Immanuel Can
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Re: The tree of knowledge

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Dontaskme wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 4:39 pm Well, I'm not sure they are the words of God.
Fair enough. But Jesus said, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

So apparently, Jesus Himself thought we are all capable of choosing to hear and understand the word of God. But equally apparently, not everybody chooses to "have the ears" for what He says.
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Re: The tree of knowledge

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Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:20 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 4:39 pm Well, I'm not sure they are the words of God.
Fair enough. But Jesus said, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

So apparently, Jesus Himself thought we are all capable of choosing to hear and understand the word of God. But equally apparently, not everybody chooses to "have the ears" for what He says.
I only understand the Jesus teachings on a human psychological level - in that we as humans have evolved a tool that is the mind of knowledge that is capable of propelling us forward into the future to achieve greatness. In knowledge we are also capable of knowing for ourselves what the right thing to do is, this is not difficult to know, it's experiential.

Like only this morning. . I was watching on youtube the live Mars web cam that is the Space X project, and it just blew my mind, just seeing pictures of Mars in virtual realtime as if I was literally on the actual planet itself there in realtime. It does seem that we have the capacity to achieve great things in the future, and I'm sure that A I will help us colonize Mars one day. And I know that's just a fantasy right now, but we could make it a reality, who knows what we are capable of, because we have evolved the tool that is the mind of knowledge, we are able to know how to achieve anything if we put our mind to it.

I still do not know how God fits into all this, there is just life moving along and discovering itself in the immediate moment as far as I can see.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: The tree of knowledge

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Dontaskme wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:41 pm I only understand the Jesus teachings on a human psychological level...
I expect that's probably true.
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Re: The tree of knowledge

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Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 7:43 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:41 pm I only understand the Jesus teachings on a human psychological level...
I expect that's probably true.
Well as far as I am aware, I have absolutely no concrete evidence or proof, same thing, of any other aware sentient creature higher than what is seemingly human awareness. I see no other source of my own knowledge than it coming from absolutely nowhere.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: The tree of knowledge

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Dontaskme wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:34 am Well as far as I am aware, I have absolutely no concrete evidence or proof, same thing, of any other aware sentient creature higher than what is seemingly human awareness. I see no other source of my own knowledge than it coming from absolutely nowhere.
That might mean there IS none, it's true.

But more likely, it means that you're just a human being, which means "a temporal creature of limited knowledge and experience." So there are no doubt a great many things that are outside your personal experience and mine, which nevertheless, continue to exist in spite of us.
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