The tree of knowledge

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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bahman
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The tree of knowledge

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The tree of knowledge is a symbol of a situation that God purposefully put Adam in a sinful situation and wait until sin happens. So He could have His grand design plan.
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Re: The tree of knowledge

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bahman wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 8:48 pm The tree of knowledge is a symbol of a situation that God purposefully put Adam in a sinful situation and wait until sin happens. So He could have His grand design plan.
But how would Adam have known otherwise what a sinful situation was if God hadn't made available the possibility to experience what a sinful situation would be like?

The point being made here, is how would any man or woman become aware of the experience of knowledge at all without first tasting the actual experience of what knowledge is and means.

If they had not become aware of what is conceptual knowledge, then they would have remained in their ignorant original natural state of being pure awareness, without knowledge of separation, without ego, or being aware of having the sense of a self.

Is there a problem with having a grand design or plan? Can a house be built without planning and designing it first?

.
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Re: The tree of knowledge

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How would Adam have known what is the concept of 'sin' without first identifying with the thought 'sin' as it appeared to him within his own awareness of the concept.

And would identifying with the thought 'sin' be the same as Adams awareness of it? ...No, it wouldn't would it, awareness is NOT the same as the thoughts that arise and are known within it.

This is what Nonduality teaches, it points to the observer of knowledge as being who you are essentially. For example, you are not your body but you are nothing without it. You are aware of your body as knowledge/thought. But you cannot directly experience yourself as the actual body part, for example, you cannot experience what it is like to be your actual literal heart or your eyes, you only are aware of these concepts as knowledge.

Well it's the same with words like sin ..you are aware of what the word means, but awareness of meaning is not the same as the concept.

Biblical litrature is not literal, and is why Nonduality came on the scene to teach us that all words were symbolic metaphor ..and not actual, or literally real. You see there is no narrative, no story, no knowledge to talk about without the knowing and meaning of every conceptual thought that arises here in human sentient awareness.

Before humans arrived on planet earth, the earth and all it's habitants still existed without us, it's just that it had no story about itself. Then when humans came along, they built a story and imposed that story upon what is, was and has always already been here.

So the biblical story of god adam and eve and the rest of the characters, are all just a man-made fable. And all this was possible because a bunch of chemistry and dna replicating molecules got together and devised the whole plan.

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Re: The tree of knowledge

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...lol
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Re: The tree of knowledge

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if knowledge was actually from a tree, wouldn't you expect squirrels to remember where they hid their nuts?

-Imp
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bahman
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Re: The tree of knowledge

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Dontaskme wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:47 am
bahman wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 8:48 pm The tree of knowledge is a symbol of a situation that God purposefully put Adam in a sinful situation and wait until sin happens. So He could have His grand design plan.
But how would Adam have known otherwise what a sinful situation was if God hadn't made available the possibility to experience what a sinful situation would be like?

The point being made here, is how would any man or woman become aware of the experience of knowledge at all without first tasting the actual experience of what knowledge is and means.

If they had not become aware of what is conceptual knowledge, then they would have remained in their ignorant original natural state of being pure awareness, without knowledge of separation, without ego, or being aware of having the sense of a self.

Is there a problem with having a grand design or plan? Can a house be built without planning and designing it first?

.
If testing the fruit is necessary for understanding including the understanding of the nature of sin then why God punished Adam and Eve. They were ignorant before testing.
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Re: The tree of knowledge

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bahman wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:23 pm If testing the fruit is necessary for understanding including the understanding of the nature of sin then why God punished Adam and Eve. They were ignorant before testing.
We're all ignorant before knowing.

On the human level of understanding and knowledge - Punishment would go something like this :arrow: Man kills a bunch of innocent people, then repeats the action until he is labled a serial killer, and is sentenced to life in prison upon capture.

That's what happens bahman. . humans have to adhere to laws that we make in order to adopt a civilised world for ourselves, it's called civilisation, and is what separates us from the animals. Not that we have more value than an animal, just that we are the ones who have evolved to be intelligent and knowlegable therefore responsiblity rests on our shoulders.

So where does God come into all this? Maybe the author of the story was talking about itself. Who else is there to talk to, but yourself and others who are selves too. The only reason you know others are selves is because you know you yourself is a self.

And so when we ourself know what feels good or bad through knowledge, we then know that others know what feels good and bad as well. And is why we have to be held accountable and responsible for what we do to others. We have to punish people else all hell would just break loose on the world.
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Re: The tree of knowledge

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Dontaskme wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:44 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:23 pm If testing the fruit is necessary for understanding including the understanding of the nature of sin then why God punished Adam and Eve. They were ignorant before testing.
We're all ignorant before knowing.

On the human level of understanding and knowledge - Punishment would go something like this :arrow: Man kills a bunch of innocent people, then repeats the action until he is labled a serial killer, and is sentenced to life in prison upon capture.

That's what happens bahman. . humans have to adhere to laws that we make in order to adopt a civilised world for ourselves, it's called civilisation, and is what separates us from the animals. Not that we have more value than an animal, just that we are the ones who have evolved to be intelligent and knowlegable therefore responsiblity rests on our shoulders.

So where does God come into all this? Maybe the author of the story was talking about itself. Who else is there to talk to, but yourself and others who are selves too. The only reason you know others are selves is because you know you yourself is a self.

And so when we ourself know what feels good or bad through knowledge, we then know that others know what feels good and bad as well. And is why we have to be held accountable and responsible for what we do to others. We have to punish people else all hell would just break loose on the world.
We don't punish innocent. God did. That is one of my problems. The other problem is mentioned in OP. Why put people in sinful situations in order to test them. God for example could give knowledge for free. Why bother doing it another way.
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Re: The tree of knowledge

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bahman wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:02 pm We don't punish innocent. God did. That is one of my problems.
No one would ever punish the innocent. That's why small children are not sent to prison, they have not evolved the knowledge of what's acceptable and what isn't, they lack the life experience to understand the implications of what harming a sentient creature means. And part of why that is is because they have not yet become aware they are a separate self yet. Until they reach the age of self realisation they are pretty much like an animal, innocent of sin.
You've got to look at the problem through your own thought processing mechanism and with your own eyes. Do you see a God punishing humans or do you see humans punishing humans? only a human aware of itself as a separate entity can be guilty of committing wrongful doing...can you see this?

bahman wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:02 pmThe other problem is mentioned in OP. Why put people in sinful situations in order to test them. God for example could give knowledge for free. Why bother doing it another way.
'Test' just means being well aware of an event has taken place or having happened, and you are the ultimate evidence of what you have witnessed. Knowledge becomes available to you as and when an event happens in realtime, in your immediate awareness, there is no more direct evidence than that self evidence, and is why you are always this immediate living testimony of knowledge.

Now, you cannot know something before you know it, first of all, you cannot know fire will burn you until you put your hand in it. Once you've tested that fire is bad through knowledge, you have now become aware that fire hurts you, and so surely enough the testing will have informed you to know not to put your hand in the fire ever again, because now you know not to do it. It's the same with all of your actions, they will carry consequences, and is why knowledge is important to you, so that you will know what and what not to do. You are always free to choose to do good or bad actions, but you are never forced to do them...you are essentially free to do what you want, no one is forcing you to do anything in life. The onus and responsibility is on you and you alone, to know what to do, and that's why knowledge is important, it informs you.

Knowledge is duality, it's identifying with our thoughts to be actual and real. It's knowing fire hurts us, and so that is why it is wrong to hurt others, because we know it's not a nice experience.
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Re: The tree of knowledge

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Remember bahman, human being wrote the Bible. It's mostly a story about the human condition. They would not have been able to write the story having no conceptual knowledge of what to write. So where did the knowledge come from except from THOUGHT

NOW, follow back to where the thought stream originates, and there will be all your answers to every question.

Humans are story tellers, why, because conceptual language evolved as and through them, it was just what happened apparently. And as each new innocent baby is born, so will the mimicking of the human story continue. As children learn to talk, they are essentially no different than a parrot, except to say, humans are more sophisticated because they have a huge big brain, that's all.

And what's really shocking, is that humans are the most destructive and dangerous of all living species ever to grace this planet...why, because they have knowledge. . and knowledge is power. Humans are basically dumb idiots, because they believe it's their power.
When in reality, they have got about as much power as a 10 watt lightbulb.

If you have any questions, dontaskme, but I will gladly speak for the one who wants to know.
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Re: The tree of knowledge

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Dontaskme wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:31 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:02 pm We don't punish innocent. God did. That is one of my problems.
No one would ever punish the innocent. That's why small children are not sent to prison, they have not evolved the knowledge of what's acceptable and what isn't, they lack the life experience to understand the implications of what harming a sentient creature means. And part of why that is is because they have not yet become aware they are a separate self yet. Until they reach the age of self realisation they are pretty much like an animal, innocent of sin.
You've got to look at the problem through your own thought processing mechanism and with your own eyes. Do you see a God punishing humans or do you see humans punishing humans? only a human aware of itself as a separate entity can be guilty of committing wrongful doing...can you see this?
But God did punish Adam and Eve knowing the fact that they were inoccent before eating the fruit.
Dontaskme wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:31 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:02 pm The other problem is mentioned in OP. Why put people in sinful situations in order to test them. God for example could give knowledge for free. Why bother doing it another way.
'Test' just means being well aware of an event has taken place or having happened, and you are the ultimate evidence of what you have witnessed. Knowledge becomes available to you as and when an event happens in realtime, in your immediate awareness, there is no more direct evidence than that self evidence, and is why you are always this immediate living testimony of knowledge.

Now, you cannot know something before you know it, first of all, you cannot know fire will burn you until you put your hand in it. Once you've tested that fire is bad through knowledge, you have now become aware that fire hurts you, and so surely enough the testing will have informed you to know not to put your hand in the fire ever again, because now you know not to do it. It's the same with all of your actions, they will carry consequences, and is why knowledge is important to you, so that you will know what and what not to do. You are always free to choose to do good or bad actions, but you are never forced to do them...you are essentially free to do what you want, no one is forcing you to do anything in life. The onus and responsibility is on you and you alone, to know what to do, and that's why knowledge is important, it informs you.

Knowledge is duality, it's identifying with our thoughts to be actual and real. It's knowing fire hurts us, and so that is why it is wrong to hurt others, because we know it's not a nice experience.
I agree with what you stated but that does not answer my concern. Again, if God has ability to inform us that fire is bad then why He should leave fire there and encouraging us to touch it to see the consequences.
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Re: The tree of knowledge

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Dontaskme wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:44 pm Remember bahman, human being wrote the Bible. It's mostly a story about the human condition. They would not have been able to write the story having no conceptual knowledge of what to write. So where did the knowledge come from except from THOUGHT

NOW, follow back to where the thought stream originates, and there will be all your answers to every question.

Humans are story tellers, why, because conceptual language evolved as and through them, it was just what happened apparently. And as each new innocent baby is born, so will the mimicking of the human story continue. As children learn to talk, they are essentially no different than a parrot, except to say, humans are more sophisticated because they have a huge big brain, that's all.

And what's really shocking, is that humans are the most destructive and dangerous of all living species ever to grace this planet...why, because they have knowledge. . and knowledge is power. Humans are basically dumb idiots, because they believe it's their power.
When in reality, they have got about as much power as a 10 watt lightbulb.

If you have any questions, dontaskme, but I will gladly speak for the one who wants to know.
I am arguing against people who think that the Bible is the word of God.
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Re: The tree of knowledge

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bahman wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:37 pm But God did punish Adam and Eve knowing the fact that they were inoccent before eating the fruit.
When you attribute a conceptual label to a doer, as you have stating in God did.. you are essentially creating an idea in your mind that there is a known thing that does actions.

Now, can you see what you've done there? Ask yourself, do I bahman honestly believe there is such a thing called God to be real and true. Right now, ask bahman to tell you whether bahman has actually SEEN this God with your own eyes, that you claim punishes people.

If you do believe and have seen God with your own eyes, then how is anyone else on this forum supposed to disprove what you believe and have seen with your own eyes...do you see where I am going with this?

Do continue, this is a very intriguing discussion...

bahman wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:02 pm I agree with what you stated but that does not answer my concern. Again, if God has ability to inform us that fire is bad then why He should leave fire there and encouraging us to touch it to see the consequences.
See my reply above...
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Re: The tree of knowledge

Post by bahman »

Dontaskme wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:51 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:37 pm But God did punish Adam and Eve knowing the fact that they were inoccent before eating the fruit.
When you attribute a conceptual label to a doer, as you have stating in God did.. you are essentially creating an idea in your mind that there is a known thing that does actions.

Now, can you see what you've done there? Ask yourself, do I bahman honestly believe there is such a thing called God to be real and true. Right now, ask bahman to tell you whether bahman has actually SEEN this God with your own eyes, that you claim punishes people.

If you do believe and have seen God with your own eyes, then how is anyone else on this forum supposed to disprove what you believe and have seen with your own eyes...do you see where I am going with this?

Do continue, this is a very intriguing discussion...

bahman wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:02 pm I agree with what you stated but that does not answer my concern. Again, if God has ability to inform us that fire is bad then why He should leave fire there and encouraging us to touch it to see the consequences.
See my reply above...
What I believe is simple. There is no God, where God is the creator of everything from nothing. God of the Bible, I don't think so since He is not obviously the creator of everything but He also has serious issues one of them is the subject of this thread. Obviously, you and I are not believers but I am not challenging you and your belief here.
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Re: The tree of knowledge

Post by Dontaskme »

bahman wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:09 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:51 pm
bahman wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:37 pm But God did punish Adam and Eve knowing the fact that they were inoccent before eating the fruit.
When you attribute a conceptual label to a doer, as you have stating in God did.. you are essentially creating an idea in your mind that there is a known thing that does actions.

Now, can you see what you've done there? Ask yourself, do I bahman honestly believe there is such a thing called God to be real and true. Right now, ask bahman to tell you whether bahman has actually SEEN this God with your own eyes, that you claim punishes people.

If you do believe and have seen God with your own eyes, then how is anyone else on this forum supposed to disprove what you believe and have seen with your own eyes...do you see where I am going with this?

Do continue, this is a very intriguing discussion...

bahman wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:02 pm I agree with what you stated but that does not answer my concern. Again, if God has ability to inform us that fire is bad then why He should leave fire there and encouraging us to touch it to see the consequences.
See my reply above...
What I believe is simple. There is no God, where God is the creator of everything from nothing. God of the Bible, I don't think so since He is not obviously the creator of everything but He also has serious issues one of them is the subject of this thread. Obviously, you and I are not believers but I am not challenging you and your belief here.
Excellent.

But I fail to see why you would want to challenge anyone about a thing that does not exist. But that's the most entertaining thing about human beings, they're completely bonkers. ( just kidding :wink: ) have fun! :D
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