"In the beginning God created ...."

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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VVilliam
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."

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Belinda wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 7:54 pm
VVilliam wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 5:18 pm
Belinda wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 10:31 am
I do not believe mystical experiences are caused directly by Supernatural Order. Mystical experiences are real and are caused by natural, causal process.
Like when Jesus was tempted in the desert by his devil?
Many conscientious people have mixed loyalties. The good choice is often the harder way of life, and the good choice often pertains to changing from the narrower good to the more universal good. This can be very hard to do because it may cause you to be unpopular with old friends and relations.
Do you think that is why Jesus was tempted in the desert...the devil represented old friends and relations?
tillingborn
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."

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You say:
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:13 pmit must be understood as meaning "compared to the love one gives to God,"
Isn't "it must be understood as meaning" precisely what the Catholic Church insisted for 1500 years, and in common with many rival Orthodox and Protestant denominations and sects still does? I think it is probable that your own interpretation of the Bible has changed as you have studied it. Can you confidently state that your current beliefs are the correct ones?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."

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tillingborn wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 12:05 am You say:
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:13 pmit must be understood as meaning "compared to the love one gives to God,"
Isn't "it must be understood as meaning" precisely what the Catholic Church insisted for 1500 years...
No.

If you check, you'll find that the Catholic Church modifies it's teachings without reference to, and even in direct contradiction of Scripture, on the say-so of the synods and papacy, and claim that this makes their revelation "progressive." (Their word for it.) This is decidedly not that.

It's a thing called "context," and it's essential for knowing what a particular word or phrase was intended to convey by the person who spoke it. In fact, the lack of respect for context is the very thing that is troubling a lot of our political discourse now, as words or phrases said by public figures are often artificially extracted from any context, and used by the media to distort the intention of the speaker.

This is the reverse of that: it's showing respect for the speaker, and trying to understand what He meant when He spoke, by using the context of the surrounding speech to interpret the particular utterance fairly.
tillingborn
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."

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Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 12:19 amIf you check, you'll find that the Catholic Church modifies it's teachings without reference to, and even in direct contradiction of Scripture, on the say-so of the synods and papacy, and claim that this makes their revelation "progressive." (Their word for it.) This is decidedly not that.
Was it not the Catholic Church that chose what became scripture?
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 12:19 amThis is the reverse of that: it's showing respect for the speaker, and trying to understand what He meant when He spoke, by using the context of the surrounding speech to interpret the particular utterance fairly.
Then has your interpretation of the Bible not developed? Have you always been right?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."

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tillingborn wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 12:59 am Was it not the Catholic Church that chose what became scripture?
The Catholic Church did not exist prior to 312 AD, at the very earliest. The Scriptures definitely predate that. So whatever the Catholic Church may have decided, it was ex post facto, at the very best.
Then has your interpretation of the Bible not developed? Have you always been right?
No, I can be wrong in my reading of Scripture, as can anyone. Correcting that is a continual activity on my part. If I do it right, I get better at it as I go. But one of the principles of it is that "Scripture interprets Scripture." That's context. And there are certainly better and worse uses of Scripture.

The science that deals with how to interpret is called "hermeneutics," and it's a big topic for these spaces. You can look it up if you want fuller exposition of the issues it raises. But one of the issues is "who is the correct interpreter?" The Catholic Church says it's the papacy, and to a lesser extent, the lower clergy. Private individuals are said to be incapable of thinking through the Word of God for themselves, according to Catholic dogma.

The Protestant Reformation was about the opposite view: namely, that God can speak through His Word to anybody who is humble, correctable and receptive, according to his or her need. That's been a persistent difference between Protestantism and Catholicism since.
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."

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Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:44 am
tillingborn wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 12:59 am Was it not the Catholic Church that chose what became scripture?
The Catholic Church did not exist prior to 312 AD, at the very earliest. The Scriptures definitely predate that. So whatever the Catholic Church may have decided, it was ex post facto, at the very best.
Then has your interpretation of the Bible not developed? Have you always been right?
No, I can be wrong in my reading of Scripture, as can anyone. Correcting that is a continual activity on my part. If I do it right, I get better at it as I go.
How do you when you are doing it right?
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:44 amBut one of the principles of it is that "Scripture interprets Scripture." That's context. And there are certainly better and worse uses of Scripture.

The science that deals with how to interpret is called "hermeneutics," and it's a big topic for these spaces. You can look it up if you want fuller exposition of the issues it raises. But one of the issues is "who is the correct interpreter?" The Catholic Church says it's the papacy, and to a lesser extent, the lower clergy. Private individuals are said to be incapable of thinking through the Word of God for themselves, according to Catholic dogma.

The Protestant Reformation was about the opposite view: namely, that God can speak through His Word to anybody who is humble, correctable and receptive, according to his or her need. That's been a persistent difference between Protestantism and Catholicism since.
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VVilliam
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."

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One mirrors the other. Neither are particularly correct because the Protestantism [of Catholicism] still argues that "God" cannot speak through any other means than scripture to anybody who is humble, correctable and receptive, according to his or her need.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."

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VVilliam wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 2:46 am Protestantism still argues that "God" cannot speak through any other means than scripture to anybody who is humble, correctable and receptive, according to his or her need.
Actually, that's not true either.

Protestantism holds that there are different forms and ways in which God reveals Himself. It merely holds that the most complete way we presently have on hand is through Biblical revelation. But the Incarnation is a revelation, and so is Creation itself. Miracles would be another (such as the parting of the Red Sea, say) or direct prophecy, as in the cases of people like Isaiah, Jeremiah or John. There are other, lesser modes of revelation as well. But in much of Protestantism, the Biblical revelation is key to interpreting the rest, and the personal conscience of the believer is at least equally important to any "clerical" interpretation.
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VVilliam
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."

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Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 2:43 pm
VVilliam wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 2:46 am Protestantism still argues that "God" cannot speak through any other means than scripture to anybody who is humble, correctable and receptive, according to his or her need.
Actually, that's not true either.

Protestantism holds that there are different forms and ways in which God reveals Himself. It merely holds that the most complete way we presently have on hand is through Biblical revelation. But the Incarnation is a revelation, and so is Creation itself. Miracles would be another (such as the parting of the Red Sea, say) or direct prophecy, as in the cases of people like Isaiah, Jeremiah or John. There are other, lesser modes of revelation as well. But in much of Protestantism, the Biblical revelation is key to interpreting the rest, and the personal conscience of the believer is at least equally important to any "clerical" interpretation.
Then it is true.

"It merely holds that the most complete way we presently have on hand is through Biblical revelation."

Furthermore, biblical interpretation is just another branch of biblical authority - leading all the way back to The Mother Church - of which Protestantism are the daughters/granddaughters/great grand daughters of.

The "personal conscience" of the believer has already been infected with the standard accepted interpretations...such as the belief that Eve sinned first.
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VVilliam
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."

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DP
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Immanuel Can
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."

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VVilliam wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:17 pm The Mother Church
The so-called "Mother Church" isn't. It's what the Catholic Church calls itself, but the Romans were actually vigorously persecuting the early Church until Constantine, in the 4th Century. It was only then that Romanism began.
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VVilliam
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."

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Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:20 pm
VVilliam wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:17 pm The Mother Church
The so-called "Mother Church" isn't. It's what the Catholic Church calls itself, but the Romans were actually vigorously persecuting the early Church until Constantine, in the 4th Century. It was only then that Romanism began.
Therein is the evidence that what the Romans produced which became canon is arguable false. The visible church - Mother AND Daughters are a product of that.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."

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VVilliam wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:28 pm ...what the Romans produced which became canon is arguable false.
Your criticism is of the Roman Catholics. It may be justified in regard to them...I would let them speak for themselves on that. It floats no boats anywhere else.
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VVilliam
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."

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Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:44 pm
VVilliam wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:28 pm ...what the Romans produced which became canon is arguable false.
Your criticism is of the Roman Catholics. It may be justified in regard to them...I would let them speak for themselves on that. It floats no boats anywhere else.
Twist.

I am just following your lead as it was your criticism. I am simply showing that the Daughter Churches are no better than their critique of the Mother Church.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."

Post by Immanuel Can »

VVilliam wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:47 pm the Daughter Churches
Christianity is not a "daughter" of Catholicism. Christianity existed long before the Romans ever got involved with it.
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