"In the beginning God created ...."

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."

Post by Immanuel Can »

VVilliam wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:30 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:37 pm
VVilliam wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:00 pm What makes you think that I do not already follow Christ
Well, your own derision of the idea certainly seems to declare that. But if I misjudge that, please feel free to explain.
What "derision of the idea" are you implying I am declaring?
You seem skeptical of Christianity. But prove me wrong, if you want.
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VVilliam
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."

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Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:14 am
VVilliam wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:30 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:37 pm
Well, your own derision of the idea certainly seems to declare that. But if I misjudge that, please feel free to explain.
What "derision of the idea" are you implying I am declaring?
You seem skeptical of Christianity. But prove me wrong, if you want.
I am.

The skepticism I do display has to do with the public face of Christianity. Jesus taught two paths.
tillingborn
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."

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Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:13 am
tillingborn wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:37 amYou are advocating a popularity contest.
No. A comparison. Just look. You'll see. I won't have to make the argument. The facts will make it for me.
According to the Bible Jesus said: “If you come to me but will not leave your family, you cannot be my follower. You must love me more than your father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sisters—even more than your own life!" People who love their children more than they love Jesus will burn in Hell for eternity. Is that not a fact?
Belinda
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."

Post by Belinda »

tillingborn wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:53 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:13 am
tillingborn wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:37 amYou are advocating a popularity contest.
No. A comparison. Just look. You'll see. I won't have to make the argument. The facts will make it for me.
According to the Bible Jesus said: “If you come to me but will not leave your family, you cannot be my follower. You must love me more than your father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sisters—even more than your own life!" People who love their children more than they love Jesus will burn in Hell for eternity. Is that not a fact?
Like so many other sayings attributed to Jesus you should look beyond the literal meaning to the metaphorical meaning. The metaphorical meaning of the quote is that you should put universal welfare and love over tribal welfare and love.

The ethics popularised by Jesus and Paul show an development of Jahweh from tribal to universal god. The roots of this evolution predate Jesus and Paul and go back to The OT prophets such as Isaiah.
tillingborn
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."

Post by tillingborn »

Belinda wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:24 amLike so many other sayings attributed to Jesus you should look beyond the literal meaning to the metaphorical meaning. The metaphorical meaning of the quote is that you should put universal welfare and love over tribal welfare and love.
Jesus was fairly adamant: "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and one's foes will be members of one's own household. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. It may be that is meant metaphorically, but I think any God is massively over-estimating the poetic sensibilities of His own creation if He doesn't appreciate that some people will take it more literally than others.
Belinda wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:24 amThe ethics popularised by Jesus and Paul show an development of Jahweh from tribal to universal god. The roots of this evolution predate Jesus and Paul and go back to The OT prophets such as Isaiah.
What is evolving? God or prophets?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."

Post by Immanuel Can »

VVilliam wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:43 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:14 am
VVilliam wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:30 am
What "derision of the idea" are you implying I am declaring?
You seem skeptical of Christianity. But prove me wrong, if you want.
I am.
Then any "implication" I may be attributed was warranted.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."

Post by Immanuel Can »

tillingborn wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:53 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:13 am
tillingborn wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:37 amYou are advocating a popularity contest.
No. A comparison. Just look. You'll see. I won't have to make the argument. The facts will make it for me.
According to the Bible Jesus said: “If you come to me but will not leave your family, you cannot be my follower. You must love me more than your father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sisters—even more than your own life!" People who love their children more than they love Jesus will burn in Hell for eternity. Is that not a fact?
Hell is unmentioned there, of course. The subject is what it takes to be "my disciple," verse 26, not who goes to Heaven or Hell.

The first bit is the instruction, and the rest is clearly an elaboration of the point: so don't miss the first bit."If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his own father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple." (Luke 14:26) This has to be relative, since otherwise it would be contrary to the commandment to love others: so it must be understood as meaning "compared to the love one gives to God," not merely as an injunction to hate anybody for no reason. Indeed, you see in the context that large crowds were gathering to Christ, coming as if they had no price to pay in order to be His disciples...as if it would be easy, and they would have no "cross" to "take up," (also obviously primarily metaphorical, since most disciples were not crucified). See verses 25 and 27.

This is exactly the same command, effectually, and the first of the Great Commandments: "You shall have no other gods before Me." He who worships anything -- even his family -- as higher than God does not worship God as he ought.

And that's right.
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VVilliam
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."

Post by VVilliam »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:03 pm
VVilliam wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:43 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:14 am
You seem skeptical of Christianity. But prove me wrong, if you want.
I am.
Then any "implication" I may be attributed was warranted.
The skepticism I do display has to do with the public face of Christianity. Jesus taught two paths.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."

Post by Immanuel Can »

VVilliam wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:43 pm Jesus taught two paths.
Feel free to elaborate.
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VVilliam
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."

Post by VVilliam »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:00 pm
VVilliam wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:43 pm Jesus taught two paths.
Feel free to elaborate.
I am...
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VVilliam
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."

Post by VVilliam »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:00 pm
VVilliam wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:43 pm Jesus taught two paths.
Feel free to elaborate.
I am...have been and will continue to do so.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."

Post by Immanuel Can »

VVilliam wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:08 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:00 pm
VVilliam wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:43 pm Jesus taught two paths.
Feel free to elaborate.
I am...have been and will continue to do so.
The "two paths" are...what?
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VVilliam
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."

Post by VVilliam »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:40 pm
VVilliam wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:08 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:00 pm
Feel free to elaborate.
I am...have been and will continue to do so.
The "two paths" are...what?
The one you follow and the one I co create
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Immanuel Can
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."

Post by Immanuel Can »

VVilliam wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:36 pm The one you follow and the one I co create
Can you show where Christ told you to "co-create" your own path? I can show where he didn't.

(John 14:6)" Jesus *said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me.'"
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VVilliam
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."

Post by VVilliam »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 7:30 pm
VVilliam wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:36 pm The one you follow and the one I co create
Can you show where Christ told you to "co-create" your own path? I can show where he didn't.

(John 14:6)" Jesus *said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me.'"
I can show you where he did.

(John 14:6)" Jesus *said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me.'"
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