You seem skeptical of Christianity. But prove me wrong, if you want.VVilliam wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:30 amWhat "derision of the idea" are you implying I am declaring?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:37 pmWell, your own derision of the idea certainly seems to declare that. But if I misjudge that, please feel free to explain.
"In the beginning God created ...."
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."
Re: "In the beginning God created ...."
I am.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:14 amYou seem skeptical of Christianity. But prove me wrong, if you want.VVilliam wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:30 amWhat "derision of the idea" are you implying I am declaring?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:37 pm
Well, your own derision of the idea certainly seems to declare that. But if I misjudge that, please feel free to explain.
The skepticism I do display has to do with the public face of Christianity. Jesus taught two paths.
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."
According to the Bible Jesus said: “If you come to me but will not leave your family, you cannot be my follower. You must love me more than your father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sisters—even more than your own life!" People who love their children more than they love Jesus will burn in Hell for eternity. Is that not a fact?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:13 amNo. A comparison. Just look. You'll see. I won't have to make the argument. The facts will make it for me.
Re: "In the beginning God created ...."
Like so many other sayings attributed to Jesus you should look beyond the literal meaning to the metaphorical meaning. The metaphorical meaning of the quote is that you should put universal welfare and love over tribal welfare and love.tillingborn wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:53 amAccording to the Bible Jesus said: “If you come to me but will not leave your family, you cannot be my follower. You must love me more than your father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sisters—even more than your own life!" People who love their children more than they love Jesus will burn in Hell for eternity. Is that not a fact?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:13 amNo. A comparison. Just look. You'll see. I won't have to make the argument. The facts will make it for me.
The ethics popularised by Jesus and Paul show an development of Jahweh from tribal to universal god. The roots of this evolution predate Jesus and Paul and go back to The OT prophets such as Isaiah.
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Jesus was fairly adamant: "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and one's foes will be members of one's own household. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. It may be that is meant metaphorically, but I think any God is massively over-estimating the poetic sensibilities of His own creation if He doesn't appreciate that some people will take it more literally than others.
What is evolving? God or prophets?
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Then any "implication" I may be attributed was warranted.
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."
Hell is unmentioned there, of course. The subject is what it takes to be "my disciple," verse 26, not who goes to Heaven or Hell.tillingborn wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:53 amAccording to the Bible Jesus said: “If you come to me but will not leave your family, you cannot be my follower. You must love me more than your father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sisters—even more than your own life!" People who love their children more than they love Jesus will burn in Hell for eternity. Is that not a fact?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:13 amNo. A comparison. Just look. You'll see. I won't have to make the argument. The facts will make it for me.
The first bit is the instruction, and the rest is clearly an elaboration of the point: so don't miss the first bit."If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his own father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple." (Luke 14:26) This has to be relative, since otherwise it would be contrary to the commandment to love others: so it must be understood as meaning "compared to the love one gives to God," not merely as an injunction to hate anybody for no reason. Indeed, you see in the context that large crowds were gathering to Christ, coming as if they had no price to pay in order to be His disciples...as if it would be easy, and they would have no "cross" to "take up," (also obviously primarily metaphorical, since most disciples were not crucified). See verses 25 and 27.
This is exactly the same command, effectually, and the first of the Great Commandments: "You shall have no other gods before Me." He who worships anything -- even his family -- as higher than God does not worship God as he ought.
And that's right.
Re: "In the beginning God created ...."
The skepticism I do display has to do with the public face of Christianity. Jesus taught two paths.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:03 pmThen any "implication" I may be attributed was warranted.VVilliam wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:43 amI am.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:14 am
You seem skeptical of Christianity. But prove me wrong, if you want.
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I am...
Re: "In the beginning God created ...."
I am...have been and will continue to do so.
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Re: "In the beginning God created ...."
The one you follow and the one I co createImmanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:40 pmThe "two paths" are...what?
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Can you show where Christ told you to "co-create" your own path? I can show where he didn't.
(John 14:6)" Jesus *said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me.'"
Re: "In the beginning God created ...."
I can show you where he did.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 7:30 pmCan you show where Christ told you to "co-create" your own path? I can show where he didn't.
(John 14:6)" Jesus *said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me.'"
(John 14:6)" Jesus *said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me.'"