Who Sinned First?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Age
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Re: Who Sinned First?

Post by Age »

VVilliam wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:31 am
Age wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:38 am
VVilliam wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:47 pm

Clearly in the bullet points Adam is testing Eve...as he still has to eat of the fruit himself in order to experience the effects. He waits to see if Eve [whom the author of the bullet points refers to as "the Woman] comes to any harm.

So in that, your observation requires adjusting in order to explain the symbolism therein.

Thus - you have to include the Serpent as part of the symbolism which explains Adams actions...then we can proceed to the god. [as per your belief that the overall characters in the bullet points are representative of the individual.]

Also - there is the author of the bullet points to consider as part of the overall symbolism...and from there, also the source of the authors material - The actual story itself.

As you adjust your understanding of the symbolism, you will see something which has been hidden from your eyes...which to answer another question from 'age' "is the point of my creating this thread and examining the question "who sinned first".

iow - it is not wrongdoing unless something is being purposefully covered up...and is directly linked to the gods question "Who told you that you are naked"?
So, are you suggesting here that you could go and rape and/or kill another human being, for example, but this would NOT be wrongdoing if you purposely do not 'cover this up' by going and telling others? Or, say, by doing this raping and/or killong on video, for others to bear witness to and see, then this is NOT wrongdoing at all either?
There was none of that in the bullet points. So no.
WHAT 'bullet points'?

I have ALREADY ASKED you to CLARIFY WHAT they ARE and/or WHERE they ARE. You did NOT respond to this request, so I am NOT necessarily going to LOOK FOR some thing, which may or may NOT even exist.

If you are too lazy or just too ignorant to tell me WHAT 'bullet points' that you are referring to, then, to 'me', I have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to reference AT ALL.

Also, you made a CLAIM here. I was just finding out how much ACTUAL Truth was in that CLAIM. You have already provided HOW MUCH.
VVilliam wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:31 am
By the way, the answer to God's question, "Who told you that you are naked?" is the same answer as to 'Who tells you EVERY thing, which is True, Right, and Correct?
Correct.
Thee Knowing, which is ALWAYS True, Right, and Correct, or God, the inner Tutor and Teacher within, which is ALWAYS guiding and instructing.
Also correct apart from that it isn't just the god of the bible called "God" by the Christians. [so not to confuse the reader if that is what you are implying.]
WHY do you CLAIM that 'It' is NOT just the God of the bible called 'God', by some human beings.

What is the God, "of the bible, EXACTLY?

And, HOW is the God, "of the bible", NOT the EXACT SAME 'It', which is the inner Tutor and Teacher within, which is ALWAYS guiding and instructing?

What do you think or believe is the ACTUAL DIFFERENCE here between these two 'Its'?
VVilliam wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:31 am
Which, by the way, is a DIFFERENT answer to the question, 'Who says EVERY thing, which is False, Wrong, and Incorrect?

The thinking, which can EITHER be true or false, right or wrong, and/or correct or incorrect, or you, the one which is the deceiving and lying one, but is NOT always.


Now you are scoping into various rooms of the individuals humanity. It is for the individual to figure out the mysteries involved therein.
Of course, it is up to 'you', individual human beings, to figure things out.

To some, however, there is, obviously, far less, so called, "mysteries" to 'figure out' to some then there are to "others".

VVilliam wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:31 am
Could being 'naked' BEFORE "adam" and "eve" did what they KNEW was wrong, just refer to the fact that they were always 'exposed' but had nothing to fear nor be ashamed about nor of? By just being together as one and NOT doing ANY thing wrong AT ALL, then could have they just have been thy True Selves with absolutely NOTHING to fear?
Yes. But as the bullet points observe, this is not what they did, and Adam was the reason for that.
In case you are NOT YET AWARE it is much harder to have a discussion with "another" IF and WHEN the "other" keeps referring to some, alleged, "bullet points" but NEVER actually ever explains WHAT those 'bullet points' ARE nor WHERE they ARE, relative to when some one does ACTUALLY explain WHAT and WHERE the 'bullet points' ARE.
VVilliam wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:31 am
But, could, when "adam" and "eve" realized that they were being 'exposed' for KNOWING that they KNEW what is right from wrong but that they had then CHOSEN to do the wrong thing, that that is when they REALIZED realized that they were 'naked', and thus being 'exposed'? And if so, then is this WHEN they chose to gather fig leaves and cover themselves up with loincloth or 'clothing', which could just be a symbol for 'trying to' cover up thee True Self with some sort of 'mask', or also known as a 'personality'. After all prior to this TAKING of what they KNEW was WRONG, they were just 'man' and 'woman', or in other just words just 'male' and 'female' of the animal species; human being. Until then they had NOT YET become the 'persons', which we see and experience 'today', hither to when this is being read.
Correct. In that you are presenting an argument that all this was necessary in order for humanity to become what humanity is today.
This does not take away the fact that it was Adams doing.
I am NOT SURE how 'it' was "adam's" doing if "adam" itself was created by some other thing else. Does this NOT imply that 'it' was some thing's else 'doing'?

Or, maybe it would be much better if I just CLARIFIED with you FIRST what you actually mean by the 'it' word here. So, what EXACTLY is 'it' what you CLAIM 'it' was "adams'" doing?
VVilliam wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:31 am If you want to argue that it was 'good' for Adam to do this,
To do 'what', EXACTLY?

What is the 'this' word in relation to EXACTLY?

The MORE CLEARER you ARE, then the LESS there is to ASSUME.

I do NOT like to ASSUME ANY thing, therefore I want to CLARIFY, FIRST. Which is very time consuming.

VVilliam wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:31 am may I remind you of your own observation that there is rape and killing going on as we argue here, and has been going on - since Adams children - largely under cover - since then.
What are you referring to now?

You said, previously, that;
"it is not wrongdoing unless something is being purposefully covered up".

I just brought up the 'rape and/or killing' of "others", which some of you human beings do, to find out, from your perspective, whether this is RIGHT or WRONG doing, when either of these doings is NOT being purposefully covered up?

But I am NOT sure what this observation I made has to do with what you are saying or 'trying to' suggest here.
VVilliam wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:31 am The more embracing idea is that it is not the sin but the hiding of the sin which causes this to happen.
Again, you are using the 'it' word and the 'this' word here, but I, again, have NO idea what this 'it' and the 'this' words are in relation to, EXACTLY.

What does, "it is not the sin but the hiding of the sin which causes 'this' to happen" actually referring to, EXACTLY?

What is 'this', here?
VVilliam wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:31 am The wrong must be put right in order for that to stop altogether.
Again, this is very much left up to INTERPRETATION.

What 'wrong', supposedly, MUST BE 'put right in, what, 'order' for 'that' (whatever 'that' is) to stop altogether.

What 'order' of right and/or wrong are you talking about and referring to here also?
VVilliam wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:31 am
By the way, when 'you', human beings, start learning, and understanding, EXACTLY HOW the Mind and the brain ACTUALLY WORK, then you will start SEEING, and KNOWING, who and what A 'person' IS, and HOW 'they' become EXACTLY who and what they ARE, which is to 'try' as hard as they can to cover up and MASK who and what thee True Self ACTUALLY IS.
Have you ever experienced being a human being?
Yes.
VVilliam wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:31 am If not then fuck off and give it a go, then your words might be different from what they are re that.
I say what I do for VERY SPECIFIC REASONS. Of which, will be REVEALED, soon enough.
VVilliam wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:31 am
For the PROOF that people can and do do this SO GOOD, just ask ANY one of them, in the days of when this is being written, What is your answer to the question, 'Who am 'I'?'
I Am.
My point PROVEN.
VVilliam wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:31 am
The ACTUAL proper AND correct answer to that question is HIDDEN by the MASK created from the personalities and persons created, within.
No it is not. That is the exact opposite of I Am. I Am not that. Are you?
If and when you learn and understand who and what the 'I' IS and who and what the 'you' IS, then you WILL SEE 'things' are a bit differently than you do now.
VVilliam wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:31 am
Which 'you', "vvilliam", ALREADY KNOW the answers to, correct, as you CLAIM here that you have created this thread to SHOW and REVEAL to 'us', the MILLIONS with the WRONG IMPRESSIONS, the True nature of what has been hidden from our eyes, correct?
Well I never saw it that way until you mentioned it. The thread itself would have to go viral for that to happen.
Rather I was saying that millions [but actually it is billions] of people believe that Eve was the vessel through which wrongdoing passed into the world.
Has it EVER occurred to ANY of 'you' that it could be or actually was the 'human being', itself, which was the vessel through which wrongdoing, itself, passed into the "world"?

And that the symbols of 'man' ("adam") and 'woman' ("eve") were used for OTHER REASONS?
VVilliam wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:31 am If you look at her children you will see this stain upon them - but Adam planted the seed.
REALLY 'who' CARES?

To 'me', BOTH the males AND the females of the adult human beings BOTH do WRONG.

LOOKING that one caused the other to do WRONG, to 'me', is just a very narrowed view of things.

To me, besides the sexual organs of the human body there is NO other difference between the 'female' and 'male' in natural terms.
VVilliam wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:31 am
By the way, besides YOUR CLAIM that " "adam" sinned first ", if 'we' supposedly adjust our understanding and 'we' do actually see 'that', what you claim here was, so called, "hidden from our eyes", which is; just that "adam sinned first", then is there any other actually purpose in now knowing that "adam (supposedly) sinned first", other than that you have just informed us of this, while knowing that you are CLAIMING that this was some hidden message, sign, or thing?
Yes - but that occurs naturally enough as one adapts to the new information and lets it have its momentum. It is a mountain to move, for sure.
Okay. So, a human being, within a 'story', named "adam" sinned FIRST. I will let this "new" information have its momentum, and just WAIT and SEE what happens.

I now wonder though WHY you are coming across so 'secretive'?

Maybe you have some thing to hide or are just hiding some 'thing' "yourself"?
VVilliam wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:31 am
Also, is there ANY other thing, message, and/or sign HIDDEN from OUR eyes, which you would like to inform 'us' of as well?
One step at a time. Some are having difficulty processing the information while others are not.
Who do you think or believe here in this forum agrees with you that "adam sinned first"
VVilliam wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:31 am We wait on those while we get on with our lives.
VVilliam wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:31 am Just for fun I gathered together all the words you wrote in caps. It almost appears to be a subconscious message of sorts...
So, you will find the effort and time to do this, but you will NOT just answer my clarifying questions Honestly and OPENLY.
VVilliam wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:31 am NOT NOT EVERY ALWAYS ALWAYS DIFFERENT EVERY EITHER NOT BEFORE KNEW NOT ANY AT ALL, NOTHING KNOWING KNEW CHOSEN REALIZED WHEN TAKING KNEW WRONG NOT YET EXACTLY HOW ACTUALLY WORK SEEING KNOWING HOW EXACTLY ARE MASK ACTUALLY IS PROOF SO GOOD ANY ACTUAL AND HIDDEN MASK ALREADY KNOW CLAIM SHOW REVEAL MILLIONS WRONG IMPRESSIONS YOUR CLAIM CLAIMING HIDDEN OUR
Would you now like to propose what is HIDDEN in this message ALSO?
Age
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Re: Who Sinned First?

Post by Age »

VVilliam wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:16 am
Age wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:19 pm What bearing would this have on absolutely ANY thing?
Just out of curiosity, do you have an actual problem with the idea that it was Adam who sinned first?
No, NOT REALLY.

I am still trying to ascertain what EXACTLY you mean by the word 'sinned' anyway.

So, if "adam", "john", or "fred" 'sinned' first this is of NO actual problem NOR concern AT ALL to 'me'. I still do NOT KNOW what you would be referring to EXACTLY.
Age
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Re: Who Sinned First?

Post by Age »

VVilliam wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:18 am
Age wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:19 pm By the way, when 'you', human beings, ....
Also out of curiosity, I notice that you refer to humans as if you were not one yourself.
I would hope you noticed this, especially considering how I ACTUALLY write this.
VVilliam wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:31 am Is there a reason why you do this?
YES.
VVilliam wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:31 am [For example] are you of another species which is not the human species?
NO.

Is this the ONLY ASSUMPTION you could come up with?
VVilliam wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:31 am Please explain this odd expression...
I write it to cause and create 'curiosity'.

See, it is only with CURIOSITY can LEARNING, thus UNDERSTANDING, begin.

Although EVERY child, human being, is born with CURIOSITY, this VIRTUE, sadly and unfortunately, can become so diminished to such a point that it does NOT even exist anymore within the adult, human being.

I also write that, to you, "odd expression" because to future to 'you', and that generation of EVOLVING human beings, that seemingly "odd expression" is NOT "odd" AT ALL, anymore.

See, just like 'you', human beings, evolved FROM and OUT OF other species/things, so to will the human being species evolve OUT OF and INTO another species, or 'thing'. Which when FULLY UNDERSTOOD, the expression, ' 'you', human beings,' is NOT that 'odd' AT ALL, REALLY.

Also, when 'you', human beings, KNOW how to answer the question, 'Who am 'I'?' properly AND correctly, then the expression, ' 'you', human beings, ' is again, NOT that 'odd' AT ALL, also.
Age
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Re: Who Sinned First?

Post by Age »

VVilliam wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:44 am Just for fun I gathered together all the words you wrote in caps in your last post. It almost appears as if it is a subconscious message of sorts...

SURE ANY AT ALL NOT SHOW REVEAL NOT WHY WHY PROVEN NOT MISS NOT WANTING TO YOU MISS EXPLAIN SEE NOT NOT STORY.

I look forward to read your answers to my questions...
But your questions are usually just in relation to 'Yes' or 'No' answers ONLY.

So, I am NOT sure what you would REALLY be "looking forward" to here.

I suggest that if you want to find and discover REALLY in depth and Truly MEANINGFUL answers, then you use a far more SPECIFIC but OPEN ended line of clarifying questioning, instead.
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VVilliam
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Re: Who Sinned First?

Post by VVilliam »

These are the words which you - "Age" - have used with CAPS throughout this thread. Your most used word is the negative word, 'not'. [used 51 times exactly 35 times more than your next most used word "all"]

51 NOT
16 ALL
15 ANY
14 EXACTLY
13 NO
13 WRONG


LOOKING LOOK SEEN NO AT ALL NOT ALREADY KNOW AWARE FULLY NOT ACTUALLY REAL ALL ACTUALLY MEANS FAR CLEARER NO BLAME ANY COUNTLESS PERFECTLY GOOD UNDERSTAND THIS FULLY LOOK AT FIRST OPEN NEITHER ANY THEN SEE, ACTUAL AND THEN KNOW IS ACTUALLY BELIEVE NO POINTED OUT SHOWED NOT OR EVERY CAN BE PROVEN WHY SO FAR LEARNING UNDERSTANDING FULLY WHOLE NO BELIEVE TRUE OF COURSE NOT WHY BELIEVE NOT
NO YOUR WHY YOU NOT EVEN YET CLAIMED COMPLETELY PRESUMPTIVE NOT ARE ALONE OBVIOUSLY ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL INTENDED MEANING CLAIM ONCE MORE BELIEVE OBVIOUSLY NOT ALONE SOME ANY BELIEVE ABSOLUTELY ANY ABSOLUTELY NO NOR ACTUALLY IS, ACTUALLY WAS ONLY INTERPRETED VERSION WAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING YOUR VERSION CLOSE INTENDED PURPOSE a MEANING BEHIND INTENDED MESSAGE THAT MUST KNOW LOOK AT SEE OBVIOUSLY CHANGED WHAT IS HOW BELIEVE BELIEVE TRUE NO YET. WHY LOOK AT DISCUSS YET UNPROVEN FIRST ACTUAL PURPOSE YOURS SEE YOUR HOW WHEN HOW WHEN AND KNOW NOT KNOWING, FIRST FIRST NOT SEE KNOW NO NOR YOUR OWN NOT INSIGHT SEE NOT ONLY ONLY WILL ONLY DECLARED CLEARLY SHOWN EXACTLY KNOWS CLEAR ANY WRONG OBVIOUSLY UNKNOWN AND EXACTLY BLAMING ELSE SO WHAT ANY NOT ALREADY KNOWN FACT ANY MISTREATS OBVIOUSLY WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG BEHAVIORS ALL KNOW DOING WRONG LIFTED OPENNESS CHANGE KNOW NOT ALL ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL ANY AT ALL ALL EVERY WRONGLY NOT ANY ALL NOT ANY AT ALL FIRST REAL ALL CRYSTAL CLEAR REVEALING UNTIL PURELY AWARE AWARE NOT KNOWING JUST YET EXACTLY REALLY ONLYALL EXPLAINING MUCH BETTER ONLY MANY BELIEVE REALLY IS REALLY ARE WILL UP INTO UPLIFTING HIGHER EXACTLY ONLY KNOWS ACTUAL CLAIM EXACTLY LIVING FORM ACTUAL IS WRONG IMPRESSION IMPRESSION NOT HOW WHY WHEN WHERE SHOWN SHOWN ACTUALLY SUPPOSEDLY ALLEGEDLY FIRST WRONGED BELIEVE WHY AND WHY NOT WHY HOW EXACTLY HOW NO WHY ABSURD ASSUMPTION RIDICULOUS LUDICROUS ABSURD ASSUMPTION CLAIM KNOW ACTUAL IS MILLIONS MISLEAD IN ARE WRONG IMPRESSION NOT SAME VIEWS YOU NOT CAN NOT NOT CLAIM NOT VERY SIMPLE VERY EASY START CLAIMS ABSOLUTELY IRREFUTABLY CHALLENGED QUESTIONED YOUR CLAIMS COMPLETELY UTTERLY ARE ACTUAL EVIDENCE PROOF NEEDED YOUR CLAIMS BEFORE CLAIMS FIRST PLACE FAILED COMPLETELY NOT BE ANY NOT NOT EVERY ALWAYS ALWAYS DIFFERENT EVERY EITHER NOT BEFORE KNEW NOT ANY AT ALL NOTHING KNOWING KNEW CHOSEN REALIZED WHEN TAKING KNEW WRONG NOT YET EXACTLY HOW ACTUALLY WORK SEEING KNOWING, IS HOW EXACTLY ARE ACTUALLY IS PROOF SO GOOD ANY ACTUAL AND HIDDEN MASK ALREADY KNOW CLAIM SHOW REVEAL MILLIONS WRONG IMPRESSIONS YOUR CLAIM CLAIMING ANY HIDDEN OUR SURE ANY AT ALL NOT I SHOW REVEAL NOT PROVEN NOT MISS NOT WANTING TO YOU EXPLAIN SEE NOT STORY WHAT ALREADY ASKED CLARIFY WHAT ARE WHERE ARE NOT NOT LOOK FOR NOT WHAT ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL CLAIM ACTUAL CLAIM. HOW MUCH WHY CLAIM NOT EXACTLY NOT the EXACT SAME ALWAYS ACTUAL DIFFERENCE YET AWARE IF WHEN NEVER WHAT ARE WHERE ARE ACTUALLY WHAT WHERE ARE NOT SURE NOT CLARIFIED FIRST EXACTLY CLAIM EXACTLY EXACTLY MORE CLEARER ARE LESS ASSUME NOT ASSUME ANY CLARIFY FIRST RIGHT WRONG NOT NOT NO EXACTLY EXACTLY INTERPRETATION MUST VERY SPECIFIC REASONS. REVEALED PROVEN IS IS WILL SEE EVER ANY OTHER REASONS REALLY CARES BOTH AND BOTH WRONG LOOKING WRONG NO FIRST WAIT SEE WHY OPENLY HIDDEN ALSO NOT REALLY EXACTLY NO NOR AT ALL NOT KNOW EXACTLY ACTUALLY YES NO ONLY ASSUMPTION CURIOSITY LEARNING UNDERSTANDING EVERY CURIOSITY VIRTUE, NOT EVOLVING NOT AT ALL FROM OUT OF OUT OF INTO FULLY UNDERSTOOD NOT AT ALL, REALLY KNOW AND NOT AT ALL ONLY NOT REALLY REALLY MEANINGFUL SPECIFIC OPEN

Generally it can be observed here in this evidence that you are a somewhat negative individual who appears to enjoy insinuating negative messages into threads, aimed specifically at others.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Who Sinned First?

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VVilliam wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:47 pm
As you adjust your understanding of the symbolism, you will see something which has been hidden from your eyes...which to answer another question from 'age' "is the point of my creating this thread and examining the question "who sinned first".

iow - it is not wrongdoing unless something is being purposefully covered up...and is directly linked to the gods question "Who told you that you are naked"?
So you are examining the question you are asking.

Who are you asking? and are you asking because you do not know the answer to your own question?

Or do you just like comparing notes with other answers to see which one most matches the question?

Oh and if you are asking because you don't know the answer to your own question, then what makes you think someone else would have the answer. Then suppose you were in agreement with someone elses answer, then where do you think they got their answer from. Would you not think that if someone else has the answer, then surely the answer would be available to you too ? :D


.
Age
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Re: Who Sinned First?

Post by Age »

VVilliam wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:03 am These are the words which you - "Age" - have used with CAPS throughout this thread. Your most used word is the negative word, 'not'. [used 51 times exactly 35 times more than your next most used word "all"]

51 NOT
16 ALL
15 ANY
14 EXACTLY
13 NO
13 WRONG


LOOKING LOOK SEEN NO AT ALL NOT ALREADY KNOW AWARE FULLY NOT ACTUALLY REAL ALL ACTUALLY MEANS FAR CLEARER NO BLAME ANY COUNTLESS PERFECTLY GOOD UNDERSTAND THIS FULLY LOOK AT FIRST OPEN NEITHER ANY THEN SEE, ACTUAL AND THEN KNOW IS ACTUALLY BELIEVE NO POINTED OUT SHOWED NOT OR EVERY CAN BE PROVEN WHY SO FAR LEARNING UNDERSTANDING FULLY WHOLE NO BELIEVE TRUE OF COURSE NOT WHY BELIEVE NOT
NO YOUR WHY YOU NOT EVEN YET CLAIMED COMPLETELY PRESUMPTIVE NOT ARE ALONE OBVIOUSLY ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL INTENDED MEANING CLAIM ONCE MORE BELIEVE OBVIOUSLY NOT ALONE SOME ANY BELIEVE ABSOLUTELY ANY ABSOLUTELY NO NOR ACTUALLY IS, ACTUALLY WAS ONLY INTERPRETED VERSION WAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING YOUR VERSION CLOSE INTENDED PURPOSE a MEANING BEHIND INTENDED MESSAGE THAT MUST KNOW LOOK AT SEE OBVIOUSLY CHANGED WHAT IS HOW BELIEVE BELIEVE TRUE NO YET. WHY LOOK AT DISCUSS YET UNPROVEN FIRST ACTUAL PURPOSE YOURS SEE YOUR HOW WHEN HOW WHEN AND KNOW NOT KNOWING, FIRST FIRST NOT SEE KNOW NO NOR YOUR OWN NOT INSIGHT SEE NOT ONLY ONLY WILL ONLY DECLARED CLEARLY SHOWN EXACTLY KNOWS CLEAR ANY WRONG OBVIOUSLY UNKNOWN AND EXACTLY BLAMING ELSE SO WHAT ANY NOT ALREADY KNOWN FACT ANY MISTREATS OBVIOUSLY WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG BEHAVIORS ALL KNOW DOING WRONG LIFTED OPENNESS CHANGE KNOW NOT ALL ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL ANY AT ALL ALL EVERY WRONGLY NOT ANY ALL NOT ANY AT ALL FIRST REAL ALL CRYSTAL CLEAR REVEALING UNTIL PURELY AWARE AWARE NOT KNOWING JUST YET EXACTLY REALLY ONLYALL EXPLAINING MUCH BETTER ONLY MANY BELIEVE REALLY IS REALLY ARE WILL UP INTO UPLIFTING HIGHER EXACTLY ONLY KNOWS ACTUAL CLAIM EXACTLY LIVING FORM ACTUAL IS WRONG IMPRESSION IMPRESSION NOT HOW WHY WHEN WHERE SHOWN SHOWN ACTUALLY SUPPOSEDLY ALLEGEDLY FIRST WRONGED BELIEVE WHY AND WHY NOT WHY HOW EXACTLY HOW NO WHY ABSURD ASSUMPTION RIDICULOUS LUDICROUS ABSURD ASSUMPTION CLAIM KNOW ACTUAL IS MILLIONS MISLEAD IN ARE WRONG IMPRESSION NOT SAME VIEWS YOU NOT CAN NOT NOT CLAIM NOT VERY SIMPLE VERY EASY START CLAIMS ABSOLUTELY IRREFUTABLY CHALLENGED QUESTIONED YOUR CLAIMS COMPLETELY UTTERLY ARE ACTUAL EVIDENCE PROOF NEEDED YOUR CLAIMS BEFORE CLAIMS FIRST PLACE FAILED COMPLETELY NOT BE ANY NOT NOT EVERY ALWAYS ALWAYS DIFFERENT EVERY EITHER NOT BEFORE KNEW NOT ANY AT ALL NOTHING KNOWING KNEW CHOSEN REALIZED WHEN TAKING KNEW WRONG NOT YET EXACTLY HOW ACTUALLY WORK SEEING KNOWING, IS HOW EXACTLY ARE ACTUALLY IS PROOF SO GOOD ANY ACTUAL AND HIDDEN MASK ALREADY KNOW CLAIM SHOW REVEAL MILLIONS WRONG IMPRESSIONS YOUR CLAIM CLAIMING ANY HIDDEN OUR SURE ANY AT ALL NOT I SHOW REVEAL NOT PROVEN NOT MISS NOT WANTING TO YOU EXPLAIN SEE NOT STORY WHAT ALREADY ASKED CLARIFY WHAT ARE WHERE ARE NOT NOT LOOK FOR NOT WHAT ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL CLAIM ACTUAL CLAIM. HOW MUCH WHY CLAIM NOT EXACTLY NOT the EXACT SAME ALWAYS ACTUAL DIFFERENCE YET AWARE IF WHEN NEVER WHAT ARE WHERE ARE ACTUALLY WHAT WHERE ARE NOT SURE NOT CLARIFIED FIRST EXACTLY CLAIM EXACTLY EXACTLY MORE CLEARER ARE LESS ASSUME NOT ASSUME ANY CLARIFY FIRST RIGHT WRONG NOT NOT NO EXACTLY EXACTLY INTERPRETATION MUST VERY SPECIFIC REASONS. REVEALED PROVEN IS IS WILL SEE EVER ANY OTHER REASONS REALLY CARES BOTH AND BOTH WRONG LOOKING WRONG NO FIRST WAIT SEE WHY OPENLY HIDDEN ALSO NOT REALLY EXACTLY NO NOR AT ALL NOT KNOW EXACTLY ACTUALLY YES NO ONLY ASSUMPTION CURIOSITY LEARNING UNDERSTANDING EVERY CURIOSITY VIRTUE, NOT EVOLVING NOT AT ALL FROM OUT OF OUT OF INTO FULLY UNDERSTOOD NOT AT ALL, REALLY KNOW AND NOT AT ALL ONLY NOT REALLY REALLY MEANINGFUL SPECIFIC OPEN

Generally it can be observed here in this evidence that you are a somewhat negative individual who appears to enjoy insinuating negative messages into threads, aimed specifically at others.
And, 'you', "vvilliam", can INTERPRET ABSOLUTELY ANY thing, out of ABSOLUTELY ANY thing, like, for example, "adam sinned first", and then CLAIM this to be absolutely TRUE, which MILLIONS have NOT been able to RECOGNIZE and to have SEEN BEFORE 'you'' came along to ENLIGHTEN ALL of 'us'.

BUT, then when questioned about WHY this, supposedly and allegedly, "new" information is NEEDED to be shared around with the LOST and CONFUSED MILLIONS, then you are COMPLETELY and UTTERLY INCAPABLE of EXPLAINING 'this' NOR ANY thing else here. YET, you can and will spend some time LOOKING FOR absolutely ANY thing in what I have written AND said in the HOPE that you can DEFLECT and DETRACT away enough from the FACT that you can NOT back up and support YOUR OWN ASSUMPTIONS, BELIEFS, and CLAIMS.

LOOK you CLAIMED "adam sinned first". I can ACCEPT and AGREE with this, because this is of absolutely NO importance in nor to Life, Itself, so let us move along, and SEE if you can EXPLAIN WHY this is IMPORTANT, to 'you'?

If you can NOT or will NOT explain this, then this thread seems rather POINTLESS in the EXTREME.
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VVilliam
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Re: Who Sinned First?

Post by VVilliam »

Perhaps if we put on our detective hats and examine the story we can find out if indeed it was the case that Eve sinned first.

Facts [according to the storyline]

The god created Adams body as a cadaver [a non-living form] and breathed his 'life force' into the form so that it became alive. [thus the form was a container/avatar]
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Adam was created first and instructed by the god regarding the knowledge fruit.
He was told not to EAT it.
And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


Then the god made a variety of forms which he then made into living creatures [presumably by the same method as the god had done with Adams form.] because the god did not think it was 'good' for Adam to 'be alone' [even that the god was with Adam so we can't say Adam was 'alone' really.]

And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air;...


The god brought these beings to Adam and Adam named the beings. One of those being of course, Adam called a "Serpent"

...and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

Out of all the beings created and presented by the god, there were none which were found a suitable 'help meet'.

And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

The god had to think outside the box...this time he changed his method of creating...

And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.


Adam appears to be very pleased with this new addition to the garden and he called her "Woman" because he was still naming things that the god brought to him and because he understood how she had been made [so the god must have explained to him the process of how the woman was created.]

And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

Then we have an interesting commentary on why a women leaves her parents and goes to be with man, as per the first Woman being created to be the helpmate of the First Man [tradition] only...wait...the commentary seems to have it backwards...

Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

So okay - perhaps it is better understood that both men and women leave their parents and go to live with each other...as husband and wife. The important thing must be that they are living together for each other in love and support. Keep that in mind.

Then the finally bullet point in that part of the story is that they were created naked and were not clothed because they had no reason to wear clothes. The garden must have been temperate. However the mention of them wearing no clothes is not because of the obliging climate but to point out that the pair had no experience of being ashamed, and this was obviously pointed out in anticipation of the story-tellers intent to explain to us WHY the pair were naked.

And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

What we have in that first biblical story, isn't really a story but bullet points regarding a story.

Analogy of that being the case is unto Sherlock Holmes [remember we have our detective hats on for this] walking onto a crime scene. A policeman tells him the bullet points of the situation but Sherlock has the eye of an investigator and can read the room far better for that.

The next set of bullet points go directly to the advent of the scene of the eating of the forbidden fruit. We are not informed how long a period went by from the last set of bullet points [the creation of other animals and of the Woman.]
It may have been a day, a week a year or a decade...and could even be significant information which has been left out.

Nevertheless the next scene we are introduced to the Serpent.

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. ...

There are various interpretations re the word 'subtil' and it is generally regarded along the lines of being "cunning/of malicious intention"

As we know, Adam named the Serpent a "serpent" so we can conclude from that, that Adam was familiar with said creature.

...And he said unto the woman,

So we know that the Serpent could speak at least one language and be understood.
Since Adam would have known this to be the case with this particular being, it is likely that Adam and the being had some kind of relationship and certainly more of a relationship that Adam could have gotten from any of the other creatures of the garden that the god had created.
From this we can ascertain that it may have been likely that out of all the creatures which proved unsuitable as a help mate for Adam, the Serpent would have been the closest candidate for the role, because at least it could converse with Adam which would have been nice for Adam when Adams god was not there to help him in his aloneness.

And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.


So next bullet point is the words the serpent spoke to Eve.

Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

From this one sentence we have some interesting evidence to examine.

Firstly: It is what is known as a "leading question" - a question that prompts or encourages the answer wanted.
Secondly: The serpent was aware that the god had given specific instructions regarding a certain fruit of a certain tree.

We know these, because after the Woman replies we get this from the serpent;

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

1: Where did the serpent get this knowledge from?
2: Was this knowledge true? [in relation to the bullet points about the story.]

Re [1:] There are 3 possible answers. The serpent got the information from the god, from Adam, or just made it up on the fly, winging things in relation to how the Woman replied to his initial leading question.

Re [2:] We know that after the pair had both eaten of the fruit they did not die. In fact according to follow-up stories, they did not die for many hundreds of years later. So it was either a lucky guess from the serpent, or he had some kind of inside information...which rules out Adam being the source of where the serpent got his information from - or at least that part of the information...but we shouldn't discount the idea that the serpent was surprised that when the Woman ate the fruit, that she didn't actually die. Which is to say, Adam still could have been the source from where the serpent got its information.

Back to that leading question. Since we know that the serpent already had the information re the forbidden fruit, he framed his question to the Woman in order that the woman would focus upon the one tree which she had been told "not to touch or eat of" because that was the tree the serpent wanted the Woman to focus on.

And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.


Let us now go back to what the god had instructed Adam in relation to the fruit.

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


We can see clearly here that the Woman believed that they were not even to touch the fruit and told the serpent as much. Since the serpent knew that this was not actually part of the gods instructions, the serpent had identified a possible weakness in the Woman's argument. Therefore IF it could get the Woman to simply touch the fruit and she did not 'surely die', then she would most likely also then eat of the fruit. [="Subtil"] Mission accomplished.

But what was the serpents motivation for getting the Woman to eat the fruit and die?

Next up we have;

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

This event in the storyline brings everything together and shows us that it was Adam who sinned first.

Why?

As I have pointed out.

1: Adam must have been the one from which the serpent got the information about the forbidden tree.
2: Adam must have been the one who added to the command "do not touch"
3: Adam used the Woman as a lab-rat to test whether there was any truth to the gods prediction that to eat the fruit one would will surely die.

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

It is undeniable that Adam was the one who wanted to eat the fruit and gain this knowledge. Perhaps the serpent and he reasoned that the god was keeping knowledge from him and wondering how they could test the theory to see if it were true?
Of course!
Use the Woman!

How do we know this is the most likely case?

We know because bullet points of the story tells us.

Adam was with Eve throughout the temptation. He never raised any points of concern regarding either Eves adding to the gods command [do no touch...further evidence that it was Adam who told the Woman not to touch the fruit] nor did he raise any voice of concern at the serpents tempting his wife to do something they were told not to do.
Clearly this is indicative of behavior of someone with a hidden agenda.

Eve would have seen Adams silent presence during her conversation with the serpent, as indicative of Adams approval.

Indeed, the evidence this was the case, is apparent in the same bullet point. [verse]

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Clearly the Woman had not died, just as the serpent had told her she would not. Therefore, Adam had confirmation it was safe to eat the fruit, and did not hesitate to partake.

Since Adam behaved in such a cowardly, unprotecting subtil manner and used the Woman - "bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh" as nothing more than a guinea pig, it can be said that Adam sinned [acted wrongly] first. He co-conspired against the Woman. [the serpent planting the seeds of doubt etc...in his mind prior to this event is likely what occurred]

After Adam sinned first by allowing the Woman [bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh] who he named "Woman" to be tempted by the serpent rather than standing up in defense of - not only - that which the god had told Adam [and thus preventing a serious outbreak of curses upon humanity from the god] - but also in defense of the which the god had gifted to Adam in the form of the Woman.

Let us examine the next few bullet points.

And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

The effect of eating the fruit appears to have caused Adam and Woman to feel shame, as if the author of the bullet points believed that knowing 'good' from 'evil' meant that being naked was 'evil' and thus something to be ashamed of.

Or perhaps the author was trying to say that the pair were internally ashamed of their action and this transferred into the external world they shared together as "the need to cover up"...this appears to be what occurred when the god [apparently immediately - but perhaps some days or weeks later] enters the situation, by paying them a visit. They had 'cover up stories' to explain their knowledge of being naked.

And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

[interesting to note the author is now referring to the Woman as Adams "wife"] :?:

Hiding - covering up - not wanting to be exposed...So well hidden that the god could not even find them and had to call out to Adam like a parent who has a missing child.

And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

Adam come out from hiding and says;

I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

Now the extremely interesting question which to this day, [to the best of my knowledge] has not been biblically answered.

Who told thee that thou wast naked?

"Who" indeed. Certainly the bullet points do not indicate anyone told them they were naked.
Then the god asks a rhetorical question.

Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

Obviously the god knows Adam has done exactly that, for why else would he be hiding? The god was interested in Adam's answer. [a simply yes might have been all that was required, but apparently more covering up was what occurred.]

Adam answered the gods question by trying to cover up his wrong-doing.

The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

What a slithery little coward this man 'made in the gods image' was. Not only does Adam blame the Woman [instead of manning up] but he also implies that it is the gods fault because the god made the Woman from Adams own 'flesh and bone' 'and gave Adam the Woman to be with Adam.' [!]

The god hears Adams excuse and then - seemingly accepting it - [talk about having favorites] the god asks the Woman;

What is this that thou hast done?

The Woman replied:

The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

Given that it has been established in the evidence of the bullet points of the storyline, that Adam behaved as if he had every intention of eating the fruit if it proved that the Woman survived eating it herself, we can appreciate that Adams excuse is a lie.

On the other hand we can see that the Woman's excuse was the truth.

We can also see that the god was not interested in the details as to who was telling the truth and who was lying...
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VVilliam
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Re: Who Sinned First?

Post by VVilliam »

The god: wrote: Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
Obviously this was a rhetorical question. The answer Adam gave is reveling in that it allows one to understand what motivates Adam.

The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

Therein Adam is not interested in taking responsibility for his own actions, but did rather try and pin the blame on others.

Strangely the author does not have the god recognizing this as being the case...perhaps because the author did not see it and so did not think it worth mentioning. The next line [bullet point] has the god immediately questioning the Woman...
The god: wrote: What is this that thou hast done?
The Woman admits that she was beguiled and from that, chose to eat the fruit...

The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

The Woman took some responsibility for her actions.

We have no further evidence that the Woman also mentioned that her husband was with her at the time and did not do anything to try and prevent what was happening. It is like the god simply cuts her off and immediately turns his attention to the Serpent...and when he does, the god doesn't even ask the Serpent why it what it did. He simply curses the Serpent immediately.
The god: wrote: Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
The Womans 'seed' of course is her eggs, which Adam still had to fertilize. Needless to say, the 'seed' is the offspring of the couple. Humankind.

The god then curses the Woman.
The god: wrote: I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.”
Apparently the god is unaware that Adam was with his wife at the time of the beguiling of the Woman, nor is the god aware as to how Adam had obviously misinformed the Woman in relation to touching of the fruit [which the god did not forbid - thus Adam had added to the gods command]
So in this, the god is putting someone in charge of the Woman who is obviously not a wise choice for the role...because the god failed to be fully informed of what had gone down...and in a seemingly sadistically motivated manner the god also greatly increased the pain the Woman should feel in childbirth...the author has us thinking that the god is reacting in an uniformed knee-jerk over-the-top manner...

Then it is Adams turn to be cursed...and the god appears to have slightly calmed down...giving the impression [in relation to others] that 'Man' is the gods favorite.
The god: wrote: Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
As far as favoritism goes, the god is still cursing the whole creation of human beings and revealing an extremely sadistic nature which one could say is a type of transference and what we are witnessing is really the authors own nature being transfer onto the nature of the gods character.
The author appears to not like humanity very much. Especially not Women.
Scott Mayers
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Re: Who Sinned First?

Post by Scott Mayers »

Age wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:52 am
Scott Mayers wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:13 am
Age wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:55 am Could the story of "eve" and "adam" just be a story about HOW and WHEN human beings came to evolve? That story after all is about HOW from 'earth' came, or evolved, "adam", from "adam" came, or evolved, "eve", and when through evolution, itself, a species called the 'human beings', themselves, came, or evolved, into existence, which was WHEN "adam" AND "eve", human beings, came, or evolved, into adult hood, with the realization that they actually did KNOW right from wrong. Before this there were just species of animals living 'naively', who had evolved in and with NOT knowing. When one of these species evolved further along the evolutionary trail, to and with a sense of KNOWING, then this is when human beings FIRST came into being and existing.

Could this be why "adam" and "eve" were said to be the FIRST human beings? NOT because they were created and 'dropped here on earth', by some magical way, but just because they were 'created', through the evolutionary process, to become the way they, and 'you' are? That is; A species with the ability to learn, SEE, understand, and reason. Which, obviously, as far as 'we' KNOW, NO other living animal NOR species has.
Yes. I think that the cleverness of HOW it was written was to respect multiple interpretations that least insulted anyone (where possible). But I think this story is NOT originally simply of one genetic class of people like the Hebrews. They were just the ones to capitalize on it when all the prior works had eventually been distroyed. It's 'rational' in light of interpretation ABOUT humanity in light of other animals and why intelligence itself does not seem to be completely enough. The modern views mostly focus on the sexual connotation regarding the 'nakedness' Adam and Eve but notice how it was the 'knowledge' itself that cursed them. Thus, to become wise like God comes with a curse regardless.
After evolving to the "adam" and "eve", human being, evolutionary stage of Life, could the 'curse', itself, of becoming wise like God just be that no matter how hard we 'try to' 'justify' our WRONG BEHAVIORS, we ALL KNOW, deep down, that we are actually DOING WRONG?

By the way, the 'curse' if LIFTED with and though absolute Honesty, OPENNESS, and Want of CHANGE, for the better. We had now learned that we actually do now KNOW right from wrong. So, we can NOT Truly 'justify' our wrong behaviors, although ALL adults 'try to'.

Also, could the 'nakedness' have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL to do ANY 'sexual connotation' AT ALL?

After ALL EVERY, so called and WRONGLY called, "non civilized" culture are NOT 'naked', in ANY 'sexual connotation' of that word. Hiding sexual organs of the body, 'non nakedness' just puts the exposing or seeing of them into a 'sexual connotation'. Obviously, if one grew up around seeing ALL human beings without 'clothes' on, then there would NOT be ANY 'sexual connotation' AT ALL in regards to what is only now called 'nakedness'.

Could the 'nakedness' in relation to the FIRST of the human being species, which evolved, and were created from prior species, just be in relation to the 'clothing', or the 'hiding', of thee REAL and True Self? Which could ALL become CRYSTAL CLEAR with the REVEALING of thee True Self?
"Right" nor "Wrong" is applicable to the curse. "Curse" itself is only meaning that we are "defeated in finding the expected comfort we expect in discovering the truth", as children may believe that growing up is the ideal only to discover that reality is unfair and necessitates death.

The 'nakedness' is NOT interpreted by me to be about sex, but EXPOSURE to the truth. It has coinciding relations to humans even at the time that was written because by then, civilization interpreted sexual matters as also relatively sinful in special contexts. That is, IF the original term literally related to having no clothes, it is appropriately having shared meaning to 'exposure' of any kind as a metaphor in common use. The Emperor's New Clothes was originated from earlier sources that references this duality in the same way and how the Jesus-character of Christianity treated his role as the kid in the crowd pointing out the 'nakedness' that others at least pretended not to notice.
Age
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Re: Who Sinned First?

Post by Age »

Scott Mayers wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 8:48 am
Age wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:52 am
Scott Mayers wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:13 am
Yes. I think that the cleverness of HOW it was written was to respect multiple interpretations that least insulted anyone (where possible). But I think this story is NOT originally simply of one genetic class of people like the Hebrews. They were just the ones to capitalize on it when all the prior works had eventually been distroyed. It's 'rational' in light of interpretation ABOUT humanity in light of other animals and why intelligence itself does not seem to be completely enough. The modern views mostly focus on the sexual connotation regarding the 'nakedness' Adam and Eve but notice how it was the 'knowledge' itself that cursed them. Thus, to become wise like God comes with a curse regardless.
After evolving to the "adam" and "eve", human being, evolutionary stage of Life, could the 'curse', itself, of becoming wise like God just be that no matter how hard we 'try to' 'justify' our WRONG BEHAVIORS, we ALL KNOW, deep down, that we are actually DOING WRONG?

By the way, the 'curse' if LIFTED with and though absolute Honesty, OPENNESS, and Want of CHANGE, for the better. We had now learned that we actually do now KNOW right from wrong. So, we can NOT Truly 'justify' our wrong behaviors, although ALL adults 'try to'.

Also, could the 'nakedness' have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL to do ANY 'sexual connotation' AT ALL?

After ALL EVERY, so called and WRONGLY called, "non civilized" culture are NOT 'naked', in ANY 'sexual connotation' of that word. Hiding sexual organs of the body, 'non nakedness' just puts the exposing or seeing of them into a 'sexual connotation'. Obviously, if one grew up around seeing ALL human beings without 'clothes' on, then there would NOT be ANY 'sexual connotation' AT ALL in regards to what is only now called 'nakedness'.

Could the 'nakedness' in relation to the FIRST of the human being species, which evolved, and were created from prior species, just be in relation to the 'clothing', or the 'hiding', of thee REAL and True Self? Which could ALL become CRYSTAL CLEAR with the REVEALING of thee True Self?
"Right" nor "Wrong" is applicable to the curse. "Curse" itself is only meaning that we are "defeated in finding the expected comfort we expect in discovering the truth", as children may believe that growing up is the ideal only to discover that reality is unfair and necessitates death.
Well when one evolves passed and out of the human being stage in Life, then the curse is lifted. How one evolves passed that evolutionary stage is through and by consciously KNOWING Right from Wrong.

By the way, when one matures and grows up and out of the human being evolutionary stage, then they REALIZE what Reality REALLY IS, and thus can SEE and KNOW that Reality, Itself, is Truly FAIR, and that Life, Itself, Truly prevails.
Scott Mayers wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 8:48 am The 'nakedness' is NOT interpreted by me to be about sex, but EXPOSURE to the truth.
Okay. So, you see this more or less the same as me, correct?
Scott Mayers wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 8:48 am It has coinciding relations to humans even at the time that was written because by then, civilization interpreted sexual matters as also relatively sinful in special contexts. That is, IF the original term literally related to having no clothes, it is appropriately having shared meaning to 'exposure' of any kind as a metaphor in common use. The Emperor's New Clothes was originated from earlier sources that references this duality in the same way and how the Jesus-character of Christianity treated his role as the kid in the crowd pointing out the 'nakedness' that others at least pretended not to notice.
Fair enough.
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Re: Who Sinned First?

Post by Sculptor »

VVilliam wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:17 am Adam or Eve?
God.
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VVilliam
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Re: Who Sinned First?

Post by VVilliam »

Sculptor wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:11 pm
VVilliam wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:17 am Adam or Eve?
God.
Since sin is the breaking of imposed rules then regardless of the gods behaviour one cannot acurately cliam that the god sinned unless the god himself was breaking imposed rules...rules which we know nothing about so cannot make the call either way.

We can suspect..
But that is about all we can do.

Remembering that Adam was the first one to imply that the god was at fault...indirectly at fault but at fault irregardless.
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VVilliam
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Re: Who Sinned First?

Post by VVilliam »

DP
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Re: Who Sinned First?

Post by Sculptor »

VVilliam wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 6:50 pm
Sculptor wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:11 pm
VVilliam wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:17 am Adam or Eve?
God.
Since sin is the breaking of imposed rules then regardless of the gods behaviour one cannot acurately cliam that the god sinned unless the god himself was breaking imposed rules...rules which we know nothing about so cannot make the call either way.

We can suspect..
But that is about all we can do.

Remembering that Adam was the first one to imply that the god was at fault...indirectly at fault but at fault irregardless.
God made adma god made eve.
He made them, they sin. The sin is his design.
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