Who Sinned First?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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VVilliam
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Who Sinned First?

Post by VVilliam »

Adam or Eve?
Age
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Re: Who Sinned First?

Post by Age »

To be able to answer this question sufficiently to you, what does the word 'sin' even mean, to you?
Scott Mayers
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Re: Who Sinned First?

Post by Scott Mayers »

VVilliam wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:17 am Adam or Eve?
The 'curse' in the Adam and Eve story is not originally literal. It was a means of passing on the general collective ideas from all cultures regarding why we as humans were distinctly intelligent enough over all other parts of nature yet appear unable to solve the question, why do we require suffering to live?.

"Adam" represents ANY first person, the 'atomic' being who seems to think differently to other animals, and "Eve" refers to all other people that follow. [And why 'eve-' terms are used expressively to refer to infinite concepts, like 'ever'. The terms, odd and even also relate.

The curse was about becoming intelligent (as the 'gods'). When we are all young we want to grow up quick thinking that being an adult would be ideal. But the curse is discovering that once you KNOW something, such as the 'secrets of the universe', you can no longer be privileged to be naive and are forced to recognize that struggle and death are not even something that the 'gods' (where they could exist) could prevent. The curse is the loss of our naivety and the recognizition of life not being so 'fair' as our minds as children would normally default to: that we cannot live forever. [Thus evening brings death in the comparative way of our sun each day, an inevitible reality.]

Note that the term, 'evil' has the root of Eve there too! So this is why the mistaken interpretation that the cartoon representing the concept of Eve, was necessarily relevant to sex or to individual persons.
Skip
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Re: Who Sinned First?

Post by Skip »

VVilliam wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:17 am Adam or Eve?
That depends on where you start the sinning process. When Eve was talking to the Serpent, she had no clue as to good and evil or sin or any of that stuff: she had not yet eaten of the fruit. All she was concerned about was God having said that if they tasted that fruit, they would die --- which sounded sort of bad when He said it, but she didn't even know what death was. The Serpent said, "No, he won't kill you." and she, never having met anyone but Adam and God, had no concept of lies. So she believed him and took a bite.
The story doesn't say how long the knowledge toxin took to show effects. She went straight to Adam and offered him some, because they shared everything. He accepted it, because he was accustomed to being fed by his wife.
Later, once the knowledge of good and evil had got into his system, he used that as a lame excuse to spread blame to Eve and God: "it was given to me by the woman you gave to me"
At this point, was there a "sin"?
Can one sin when one has no understanding of right and wrong?
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bahman
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Re: Who Sinned First?

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VVilliam wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:17 am Adam or Eve?
God because of creating a sinful situation.
Age
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Re: Who Sinned First?

Post by Age »

Scott Mayers wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:17 am
VVilliam wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:17 am Adam or Eve?
The 'curse' in the Adam and Eve story is not originally literal. It was a means of passing on the general collective ideas from all cultures regarding why we as humans were distinctly intelligent enough over all other parts of nature yet appear unable to solve the question, why do we require suffering to live?.

"Adam" represents ANY first person, the 'atomic' being who seems to think differently to other animals, and "Eve" refers to all other people that follow. [And why 'eve-' terms are used expressively to refer to infinite concepts, like 'ever'. The terms, odd and even also relate.

The curse was about becoming intelligent (as the 'gods'). When we are all young we want to grow up quick thinking that being an adult would be ideal. But the curse is discovering that once you KNOW something, such as the 'secrets of the universe', you can no longer be privileged to be naive and are forced to recognize that struggle and death are not even something that the 'gods' (where they could exist) could prevent. The curse is the loss of our naivety and the recognizition of life not being so 'fair' as our minds as children would normally default to: that we cannot live forever. [Thus evening brings death in the comparative way of our sun each day, an inevitible reality.]

Note that the term, 'evil' has the root of Eve there too! So this is why the mistaken interpretation that the cartoon representing the concept of Eve, was necessarily relevant to sex or to individual persons.
I like your way of LOOKING AT 'things', which is far more deeply and introspectively than just what you have previously been informed of.

However, when, and if, you LOOK even deeper, then what can be SEEN is; that as a True 'adult', there is NO 'suffering' AT ALL. Therefore, 'you', adult human beings, do NOT actually require suffering to live.

Also, when 'you' actually do ALREADY KNOW the, so called, "secrets of the Universe", then you actually recognize and thus become AWARE that, as a FULLY matured adult/God, so called, "struggle" and "death" do NOT even actually exist ever. "Struggle" and "death" are only perceptions, or more correctly, only misconceptions, or mistaken interpretations of what is ACTUALLY True and REAL in Life.

When 'you', human beings, have evolved enough to become Truly intelligent enough beings, then what this ALL ACTUALLY MEANS becomes FAR CLEARER.
Age
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Re: Who Sinned First?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:13 am
VVilliam wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:17 am Adam or Eve?
God because of creating a sinful situation.
WHY do the people who say, "There is NO God", are the first to jump in and BLAME God for ANY 'thing', which they consider is evil, wrong, or bad?
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bahman
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Re: Who Sinned First?

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:19 am
bahman wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:13 am
VVilliam wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:17 am Adam or Eve?
God because of creating a sinful situation.
WHY do the people who say, "There is NO God", are the first to jump in and BLAME God for ANY 'thing', which they consider is evil, wrong, or bad?
Assuming that the story is real.
Scott Mayers
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Re: Who Sinned First?

Post by Scott Mayers »

Age wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:19 am
bahman wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:13 am
VVilliam wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:17 am Adam or Eve?
God because of creating a sinful situation.
WHY do the people who say, "There is NO God", are the first to jump in and BLAME God for ANY 'thing', which they consider is evil, wrong, or bad?
It is about 'blaming' the actual people promoting these as facts that is at issue, not the "God" that is proposed. Religious justifications are forms of begging that gets treated as rational. But if it is rational to suggest these conjectures as justified for merely being proposed, then not even reasoning matters. All that would be left is bulling one's might to rule over others by force. Religion begs that in order for one to determine the truth, one must FIRST believe. And if this isn't enough, it must be because you didn't believe hard enough or are doing something wrong, NOT those who are demanding you have faith in them.

The fault of all social ills lies with deception of those using declarations of their 'god' as making themselves uniquely superior over others. The 'sin' is misplaced in today's religious interpretation of the past. To the non-religious, "Nature", "Universe", "Totality" suffices as non-biased labels for the unknown source of things. The religious interpret VALUE to this Nature as 'good' and often with some particular history added that is arbitrarily specific to those people believing what they do is 'good'. By aligning one to some 'god', they alieviate their onus to deal with truth or argument and pass the burden to others to prove what cannot be proven let alone disproven. It is a form of abuse as far as I'm concerned. While it can be harmless if one is just playing pretend in some practical psychological way, when it is used politically, it becomes a means to define those pretending to lie THAT they are not actually pretending, an intentional contradictory state only meant to deceive, whether it be against others, or one's self-deluded self-image of their pretentious superiority.
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VVilliam
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Re: Who Sinned First?

Post by VVilliam »

It is - as most seem to have understood - a question related to the mythology in the first story of the Bible.

Re "what is 'sin'?", the general understanding is 'wrongdoing'.

The OP question is focused upon Adam and Eve not the other characters in the story.
Dontaskme
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Re: Who Sinned First?

Post by Dontaskme »

VVilliam wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:17 am Adam or Eve?
It was God the formless one - who sinned first by splitting into two.

God became separated from itself in the form of two and named the two Adam and Eve. The separation was the beginning of knowledge, spawning a plethora of concepts like sin, evil, good etc...which were all taken to be literal by the mind that is God the formless one,but even though God is formless, the mind would get all fired up over it's own self made formless concepts of itself. In it's shame it created a scapegoat to off load all it's shame onto. It's the most obnoxious and crude idea that nature ever came up with, probably beating the cosmic joke that was the jurassic period, but hopefully the mental drama will be a shorter story.

.
Age
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Re: Who Sinned First?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:41 am
Age wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:19 am
bahman wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:13 am
God because of creating a sinful situation.
WHY do the people who say, "There is NO God", are the first to jump in and BLAME God for ANY 'thing', which they consider is evil, wrong, or bad?
Assuming that the story is real.
What 'story'?

There are COUNTLESS 'stories', which have been told.
Age
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Re: Who Sinned First?

Post by Age »

Scott Mayers wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:11 am
Age wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:19 am
bahman wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:13 am
God because of creating a sinful situation.
WHY do the people who say, "There is NO God", are the first to jump in and BLAME God for ANY 'thing', which they consider is evil, wrong, or bad?
It is about 'blaming' the actual people promoting these as facts that is at issue, not the "God" that is proposed. Religious justifications are forms of begging that gets treated as rational. But if it is rational to suggest these conjectures as justified for merely being proposed, then not even reasoning matters. All that would be left is bulling one's might to rule over others by force. Religion begs that in order for one to determine the truth, one must FIRST believe.
And there is PERFECTLY GOOD reason for this. But, for one to UNDERSTAND THIS FULLY, one must LOOK AT 'things' from the perspective, which they are born from and with, FIRST. That is; from a Truly OPEN perspective. Which means, from NEITHER 'believing' NOR 'disbelieving' ANY thing. THEN, one can discover, learn, SEE, and understand thee ACTUAL Truth, AND THEN they will KNOW what 'it' IS to ACTUALLY 'BELIEVE'.
Scott Mayers wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:11 am And if this isn't enough, it must be because you didn't believe hard enough or are doing something wrong, NOT those who are demanding you have faith in them.

The fault of all social ills lies with deception of those using declarations of their 'god' as making themselves uniquely superior over others. The 'sin' is misplaced in today's religious interpretation of the past.
But what is 'the sin'?
Scott Mayers wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:11 am To the non-religious, "Nature", "Universe", "Totality" suffices as non-biased labels for the unknown source of things.
But there is NO 'unknown source' of 'things'. Even you just POINTED OUT and SHOWED that those 'things' known as 'Nature', 'Universe', 'Totality' suffice as the 'source' of 'things'.
Scott Mayers wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:11 am The religious interpret VALUE to this Nature as 'good' and often with some particular history added that is arbitrarily specific to those people believing what they do is 'good'. By aligning one to some 'god', they alieviate their onus to deal with truth or argument and pass the burden to others to prove what cannot be proven let alone disproven.
What do you presuppose here can NOT be proven OR disproved?

EVERY 'thing' mentioned so far in this thread CAN BE PROVEN.
Scott Mayers wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:11 am It is a form of abuse as far as I'm concerned. While it can be harmless if one is just playing pretend in some practical psychological way, when it is used politically, it becomes a means to define those pretending to lie THAT they are not actually pretending, an intentional contradictory state only meant to deceive, whether it be against others, or one's self-deluded self-image of their pretentious superiority.
Okay.
Age
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Re: Who Sinned First?

Post by Age »

VVilliam wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:43 am It is - as most seem to have understood - a question related to the mythology in the first story of the Bible.

Re "what is 'sin'?", the general understanding is 'wrongdoing'.

The OP question is focused upon Adam and Eve not the other characters in the story.
And it is this "general" 'misunderstanding' that the word 'sin' means/refers to 'wrongdoing' is WHY human beings, in the days of when this is being, are still SO FAR from LEARNING and UNDERSTANDING FULLY the WHOLE One True 'story'.
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bahman
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Re: Who Sinned First?

Post by bahman »

Age wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:03 am
bahman wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:41 am
Age wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:19 am

WHY do the people who say, "There is NO God", are the first to jump in and BLAME God for ANY 'thing', which they consider is evil, wrong, or bad?
Assuming that the story is real.
What 'story'?

There are COUNTLESS 'stories', which have been told.
The story of Adam and Eve.
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