What are the Benefits of Theism?

[Immanuel Can]

In view of the amount and degree of suffering in this world it is impossible to believe in a version of God Who can intervene in history...

Ah. So it would be your claim that God can have no sufficient reason for allowing things to be as they are? Is that your thought?

I draw attention to how people who should pay more in taxes do not do so.

If taxes = things for orphans, perhaps you would have an argument. Unfortunately, they don't. All they mean is bloated bureaucracies, graft, theft and embezzlement, misspending and bad accounting, and a pit with no bottom. Governments are remarkably awful at helping people. My country doesn't even have COVID vaccines, over which the government took 100% control. They were promised, but not delivered. Neighbouring states, who allow some measure of private enterprise into the bargain, are being inoculated right now.

It seems you believe Jesus and Christ are the same person.

Well, I only "want to" because it's true. But sure.

I believe that is the case...except that one cannot find her "own way" to God. The Bible makes that clear enough, but even common sense will suggest it to us as well. For if God is God, then it is HIs way we must come, not ours. The key question is not "what seems good to me," but "what IS right,"(according to God, who is never wrong).

I do not understand this at all. Your words make sense and you are using proper syntax, but you are describing not explaining.

I'm not sure why it means nothing to you. As you say, I'm using Standard English.

[Belinda]

In view of the amount and degree of suffering in this world it is impossible to believe in a version of God Who can intervene in history...

Ah. So it would be your claim that God can have no sufficient reason for allowing things to be as they are? Is that your thought?

I draw attention to how people who should pay more in taxes do not do so.

If taxes = things for orphans, perhaps you would have an argument. Unfortunately, they don't. All they mean is bloated bureaucracies, graft, theft and embezzlement, misspending and bad accounting, and a pit with no bottom. Governments are remarkably awful at helping people. My country doesn't even have COVID vaccines, over which the government took 100% control. They were promised, but not delivered. Neighbouring states, who allow some measure of private enterprise into the bargain, are being inoculated right now.

It seems you believe Jesus and Christ are the same person.

Well, I only "want to" because it's true. But sure.

I believe that is the case...except that one cannot find her "own way" to God. The Bible makes that clear enough, but even common sense will suggest it to us as well. For if God is God, then it is HIs way we must come, not ours. The key question is not "what seems good to me," but "what IS right,"(according to God, who is never wrong).

I do not understand this at all. Your words make sense and you are using proper syntax, but you are describing not explaining.

I'm not sure why it means nothing to you. As you say, I'm using Standard English.

Some governments are worse than others no matter whether they are plutocratic or socialist. I understand your objection but I am aware also of the rule of an upper class here in England, people who believe themselves naturally more entitled than others to better stuff. Democracy is the only known safeguard against corruption in government.

Regarding

For if God is God, then it is HIs way we must come, not ours. The key question is not "what seems good to me," but "what IS right,"(according to God, who is never wrong).

I can't worship a god whose notion of right and wrong is incomprehensible. True, Jesus was 'sent' to explain it all to us however Jesus, as far as I am aware, never explained the theists' problem of evil.

I think what you wrote about God's help in bringing us back to Him is called 'grace'. I have two problems with that. Firstly my problem is that God who is a Person with desires and intentions would take the trouble of creating us and setting us free to suffer only to fetch us back again into His fold. True, Jesus the Good Shepherd told us how to avoid moral evil but Jesus never told us how to avoid natural evil.( See the Book of Job)

Secondly, I cannot imagine how God extends this grace to us. Our psyches are an alternative aspect of our bodies; we are animals.Even reason, which seems our best hope of accessing God's grace, waits upon emotion.

[Immanuel Can]

Some governments are worse than others no matter whether they are plutocratic or socialist.

Of course. But you'll always find that any government is less efficient than private enterprise at getting the same things done. That's because governments rely on bureaucracies, and deal with other people's money; so they have no market-disciplines when it comes to spending. It's very easy to waste other people's money...that is, your money and mine.

I understand your objection but I am aware also of the rule of an upper class here in England, people who believe themselves naturally more entitled than others to better stuff.

I know that well. It's historical, since England has historically had an aristocracy. It's quite different in North America, where there has never been one. There are the wealthy, but they are not aristocrats, and merit-by-birth is essentially unknown there.

England is a bit like a small boat full of people: everyone expects everybody else to know their place in the lifeboat and stay there. And they get miffed if somebody moves too much, or if they can't locate their place on the boat. No wonder people left to go to America...by the 17th Century, all the land in England was already enclosed and owned, and social mobility was highly problematic. But it was never that way in America, where they had an open frontier, and social mobility was possible for anyone, with a little ingenuity and effort. So social mobility is not frowned upon there. It's actually celebrated. It's one of the better features of North America.

Democracy is the only known safeguard against corruption in government.

I agree. Unfortunately, Socialism cannot survive happily with democracy. Its mania for controlling every aspect of life takes over, and it cannot allow that some other democratically-elected alternative should gain power, something non-Socialist, so it quickly turns to totalitarianism.

True, Jesus was 'sent' to explain it all to us however Jesus, as far as I am aware, never explained the theists' problem of evil.

I find that a surprising statement, because He did. In fact, He came to address it personally.

But it's not just the Theist's problem. Evil is everyone's problem. For what is the Atheist explanation of evil?

Firstly my problem is that God who is a Person with desires and intentions would take the trouble of creating us and setting us free to suffer only to fetch us back again into His fold.

What problem do you perceive with that?

True, Jesus the Good Shepherd told us how to avoid moral evil but Jesus never told us how to avoid natural evil.

It depends on what you mean by "natural evil." I should ask you what you mean, since the term can mean more than one thing.

Secondly, I cannot imagine how God extends this grace to us. Our psyches are an alternative aspect of our bodies; we are animals.Even reason, which seems our best hope of accessing God's grace, waits upon emotion.

I confess I'm not sure how to understand this claim either. Sorry. Can you explain?

[Belinda]

Immanuel Can wrote:

Belinda wrote:

True, Jesus the Good Shepherd told us how to avoid moral evil but Jesus never told us how to avoid natural evil.

Immanuel Can replied:

It depends on what you mean by "natural evil." I should ask you what you mean, since the term can mean more than one thing.

The problem of evil :

The logical form of the argument tries to show a logical impossibility in the coexistence of God and evil, while the evidential form tries to show that given the evil in the world, it is improbable that there is an omnipotent, omniscient, and wholly good God.

I note you claim also to be puzzled by my other ideas.