Greatest I am wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 11:43 pm
Age wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 11:09 pm
Would you like to become a bit MORE OPEN?
These things have been debated forever without any kind of consensus, especially given that sin is to be avoided, so Christians say, yet they also say that Adam's sin was a happy fault and necessary to Yahweh's plan.
When I say, 'agree upon', WHY do you ASSUME what I mean, and jump to a CONCLUSION, BEFORE you ask for CLARIFICATION?
What I mean when I say, 'agreed upon, will most likely be NOT what you are thinking or believing here now, ANYWAY.
Ok. Agreements are reached without conclusions. Fail.
By the way, I would LOVE to 'have a go'. But, from the way you write, it appears that you have ALREADY CONCLUDED what the outcome WILL BE, correct?
I spoke and opined on what I have seen of the opposite.
Prove me wrong if you like.
As I asked earlier, what does the word 'sin' even mean, to 'you'?
It is certainly not a sin for one to seek knowledge and wisdom and to not want to stay too stupid to even know about reproduction.
Scriptures define sin as missing the mark, yet Christians think it ok for Yahweh to miss the creation mark by miles to where he had to use genocide to reboot the system.
When I have my legal secular hat on, the larger sins are crimes.
And, to 'me', ALL of this WRONG 'interpreting' is WHY 'you', human beings, in the days of when this is being written, are still SO LOST, CONFUSED, in DISAGREEMENT, and thus in CONFLICT with one another.
I suggest seeking CLARIFICATION FIRST, 'wide-eyed' and thus OPEN, instead of just BELIEVING, 'eyes-shut' and thus CLOSED, that you ALREADY KNOW what 'I' and "others" mean in what we say and write.
Thanks for the rant.
I suggest you think the way most philosophers have over time and recognize that in a discussion, the meaning of word usually happen after a general discussion.
AND, how is this 'meaning' of a word obtained AFTER a 'general discussion' if during the 'general discussion' what the meaning of a word actually IS is NEVER brought up and discussed. Now, if we LOOK above I have asked twice what does the word 'sin' means. Once to 'you', human beings, and once to 'you', the one known here as "greatest I am"?
See, a question was posed in the thread title, for clarification, and without KNOWING what the words in that question actually mean and/or are referring to, then HOW could the question be answered and clarified, properly AND correctly?
If you took notice a 'general discussion' was NOT sought, but rather AN ANSWER to A QUESTION was sought. Or, am I MISSING some 'thing' here?
Greatest I am wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 11:43 pm
If you do the word analysis first, the conversation goes nowhere.
LOL And as PROVEN ABSOLUTELY True from thousands upon thousands of years of evidence, OVER TIME, if you do NOT do the word analysis first, then the conversation has gotten nowhere ALSO.
Greatest I am wrote: ↑Tue Feb 16, 2021 11:43 pm
Sin here need no definition, other than they are thought to be negative and evil actions to be avoided.
BUT WHY ASSUME this?
WHY do the words 'you', "greatest I am", use need NO definitions?
Also, what you thought the word 'sin' here refers to STILL WORKS in relation to the WHOLE One and irrefutable True story. You are just, literally, 'missing the mark' of what the word 'sin' ACTUALLY means and refers to in the One and ONLY True, Right, and Correct story of 'things'.
Anyway, let us now take the word 'sin' to be thought of as 'negative and evil actions to be avoided', and relate this back to the opening post question, which was seeking if ANY one KNOWS the correct answer to the thread title question, which was and still is; Who was responsible for the first 'negative and evil action to be avoided'?
Now, if the one known as "eve" KNEW it was WRONG to take the fruit from a tree, and NO one prior to "eve" had 'sinned', then "eve" was responsible for the first 'negative and evil action to be avoided'. But to answer with this would be 'MISSING THE MARK' of what thee ACTUAL True, Right, and Correct answer IS.
See, what the word 'sin' ACTUALLY means and refers to is SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT that what has been ASSUMED, PRESUMED, and BELIEVED for so long now. And when ALL of this is REVEALED, then HOW ALL of this fits PERFECTLY TOGETHER, forming a CRYSTAL CLEAR picture for ALL to SEE as well, then this ALL becomes Truly CRYSTAL CLEAR and SEEN.
What 'it' is that has been PREVENTING and BLOCKING 'you', human beings, for thousands upon thousands of years of SEEING what thee ACTUAL Truth IS, is the very 'thing' that when CHANGED will ALLOW 'you' to SEE, crystal clear, WHY you have NOT been ABLE to SEE and UNDERSTAND, previously.
What 'caused' "eve" to TAKE that was ALREADY KNOWN to be 'forbidden'? Lies and deception, or DISHONESTY.
The 'snake' was lying to "eve". The 'snake' just refers to lies and deception WITHIN. ALL human beings are capable of telling themselves lies and deceptions with and from the 'thinking' within. The 'snake' was 'lying', or 'splitting the true'. See, ANY form of splitting from the One and ONLY ACTUAL Truth is 'lying'. Full stop. All forms of 'lying' is deception. So called, "white lies" are just ANOTHER form of 'lying', but which that phrase is used as an 'attempt' to "justify" the WRONGDOING, which is ALREADY KNOWN to be WRONG. WHY the 'snake' was a symbol used here for this 'story' is because the 'snake' is the 'lowest', to the ground, animal, which is the EXACT OPPOSITE of how ALL 'good' is referred to as 'up above' or 'high'. The 'snake' was also used because it has a 'split tongue'. Human beings, it is said, talk in tongues. The 'split tongue' is a symbol for 'splitting thee Truth'.
So, 'what' was responsible for causing "eve" to go against what "eve" ALREADY KNEW was WRONG was the lies and deceiving 'thinking' that was being used to deceive and fool "eve" into doing what was INTUITIVELY KNOWN as being a WRONG "action" or 'behavior'. Now, this 'thinking' was NOT of some other 'things' doing but was actually of "eve's" OWN DOING. "Eve" ultimately tricked, deceived, and fooled "her" own 'self' here.
And then "she" went on to talk "adam" into doing what "he" ALREADY KNEW was WRONG also. "adam" took a bite of the fruit, TOOK what was INSTINCTIVELY KNOWN to be FORBIDDEN, all of "his" OWN DOING. NO one obviously MADE/FORCED "him" do it.
"eve" WANTED and TOOK out of 'GREED'. "adam" TOOK out of 'EASY LED". They BOTH TOOK what was NOT needed, and thus UNNECESSARY, for their continued survival.
Which, and now to be completely controversial, what happened in this "male" and "female" gendered 'story' still occurs, in the days of when this is being written. That is; 'generally':
A "women", "eve", will walk into a shopping mall, SEE the "shining" 'new thing', WANT 'it', what she KNOWS she does NOT need, "justify" it someway, and then TAKE/BUY it, out of GREED.
While, a "man", "adam", when questioned, after doing what is WRONG, will immediately BLAME some other 'thing' for that WRONGDOING.
Now, OF COURSE, "men" also TAKE what they do NOT need, out of GREED, and "women" will also do other WRONG 'things'.
But BOTH, that is; ALL adult human beings, will 'try to' BLAME some 'thing' ELSE for their OWN WRONG DOING. But, in Truth, the ONLY 'thing' they can ALL "lay BLAME" on is their OWN 'selves'. It is ONLY 'one's OWN 'self' who is doing the lying and the deceiving, which FOOLS one into BELIEVING that what they are DOING is "justified" somehow.
So, NOW, Who was Truly responsible for the original 'negative and evil action to be avoided', then the correct answer is YOU, human beings. The lies and deceptions you TELL yourselves was and still is the 'negative and evil action/behavior to be avoided'. The 'original' 'sin', in the sense, was the LYING/DISHONESTY.
Also, when how the Universe works is FULLY UNDERSTOOD, then what is also gained is the knowledge that the 'original', 'beginning', or the 'first' is ALWAYS, HERE-NOW. So, Who IS Truly responsible for the 'original' 'negative and evil action to be avoided' is YOU, adult human beings, ALWAYS.
Becoming, and then being ALWAYS remaining, AWARE of what is ACTUALLY WRONG in Life, which is to be avoided is YOUR responsibility. That is; thee adult human being is who IS 'responsible'. Or, more correctly, who IS MEANT TO BE 'responsible'.
Furthermore, besides ALL of this, what the word 'sin' can also refer to and mean is, just MISSING THE MARK, which, again, is done by and through LIES, DECEPTION, and DISHONESTY.
You, human beings, since the story of "adam" and "eve", which is just a story about when living 'things' first EVOLVED into the human being form, up until the present days of when this is being written have been FOOLING and DECEIVING "yourselves" ONLY by and through the LIES and DECEPTION 'you' have been telling "yourselves" from and with just PLAIN OLD DISHONESTY.
So, 'what', is responsible for the 'first' 'sin', in both contexts/senses of the 'wrong to be avoided' AND of the 'missing the mark', which took place by the species 'human being' is DISHONESTY.
And, 'who' is responsible for the 'first' sin' of being DISHONEST is 'you', adult human beings. When 'you', human beings, have come to KNOW what is Right from Wrong, then 'you' have evolved/matured into an 'adult', which is who is MEANT TO BE the 'responsible' ones.
However, as can be EVIDENCED and PROVEN True, 'you', human beings, have NOT YET evolved enough to consciously EXPLAIN what is ACTUALLY Right and Wrong. Although this is VERY SOON about to CHANGE.
See, because DEEP DOWN EVERY one of 'you' unconsciously KNOWS what IS ACTUALLY Right and Wrong all that Truly 'needs' to be done is to come together and discover and find out what 'it' IS EXACTLY, which 'we' ALL agree upon and accept. Obviously, as a species there are SOME 'things' that 'we' ALL agree upon and accept as being True, Right, and Wrong.
I have found HOW this agreed upon and accepted Knowledge is UNCOVERED is by and through coming together, peacefully, OPENLY, and with CURIOSITY, of achieving the same One goal. Which, I have also found is if THE GOAL is the EXACT SAME One that 'we' ALL Truly WANT, then coming together for that One goal is HOW and WHY what is agreed upon and accepted can come to the FOREFRONT to make THE GOAL an ACTUAL Reality.
That One goal, of course, that 'we' WANTED and DESIRED from birth was and still IS to living together in Peace and in Harmony with one another - Everyone.
(Because your response was quoted incorrectly I will respond to your first responses here, next.)