Why should we be blamed?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Dontaskme
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Re: Why should we be blamed?

Post by Dontaskme »

bahman wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 4:29 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 4:24 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 4:20 pm
Why don't you try to analyze your beliefs?
I do analyze them, to a point where I see they are not actually real.
But everything cannot be unreal. Are you real?
Yes, I am real. And I don't have to believe I am real. So beliefs, to me are just fictional things within the real me. For example: I would never have known what is a tree, or that a tree is a tree until I believed it was a tree. To know the trees existence existed at all, I would have to believe it did, after being informed by someone else that a tree was indeed a tree. When I was shown the image of the tree, then i could believe in the trees existence, but prior to being informed about a tree, I had no concept of a tree.
Last edited by Dontaskme on Wed Feb 17, 2021 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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henry quirk
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Re: Why should we be blamed?

Post by henry quirk »

bahman wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 4:09 pm
henry quirk wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 4:04 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:49 pm
Then whose fault it is when a psychopath kill someone? A psychopath just cannot resist all life long. Why a psychopath should suffer? Whose fault it is?
mental illness, disease, blunts the free will...can't blame the psychopath (you can only restrain him) anymore that you can blame the tornado

I get the desire to lay blame, but -- sometimes -- there's simply no just place to lay it, no person to assign guilt to
That is your interpretation which is fine. But do you think that God thinks the same?
I can't second guess god, so I don't try...got my hands full livin'
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bahman
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Re: Why should we be blamed?

Post by bahman »

Dontaskme wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 4:46 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 4:29 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 4:24 pm

I do analyze them, to a point where I see they are not actually real.
But everything cannot be unreal. Are you real?
Yes, I am real.
How do you know?
Dontaskme wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 4:24 pm And I don't have to believe I am real. So beliefs, to me are just fictional things within the real me. For example: I would never have known what is a tree, or that a tree is a tree until I believed it was a tree. To know the trees existence existed at all, I would have to believe it did, after being informed by someone else that a tree was indeed a tree. When I was shown the image of the tree, then i could believe in the trees existence, but prior to being informed about a tree, I had no concept of a tree.
Are you talking about learning?
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bahman
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Re: Why should we be blamed?

Post by bahman »

henry quirk wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 4:47 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 4:09 pm
henry quirk wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 4:04 pm

mental illness, disease, blunts the free will...can't blame the psychopath (you can only restrain him) anymore that you can blame the tornado

I get the desire to lay blame, but -- sometimes -- there's simply no just place to lay it, no person to assign guilt to
That is your interpretation which is fine. But do you think that God thinks the same?
I can't second guess god, so I don't try...got my hands full livin'
It is all cool.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Why should we be blamed?

Post by Dontaskme »

bahman wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 4:58 pm
How do you know?
It's experiencial, it's self evident, you are your own proof.

bahman wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 4:58 pmAre you talking about learning?
Yes, learning is all about knowing knowledge, which is just langauge, so our knowledge is all a fictional narrative within ourself, that we weave into a story from our own perception according to how we interpret the meaning of our language.

The problem with the God idea, is that we cannot pin an image to God and say that is God or there is God, because concepts are fixed, they cannot be anything other than what they are known for via their actual image seen. So knowledge is all about learning, which is all about creating stories, that build a picture of a reality that makes sense to us according to how we accept what makes sense to us personally.
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Re: Why should we be blamed?

Post by bahman »

Dontaskme wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:11 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 4:58 pm
How do you know?
It's experiencial, it's self evident, you are your own proof.
What is "you"? How do you experience it?
Dontaskme wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:11 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 4:58 pm Are you talking about learning?
Yes, learning is all about knowing knowledge, which is just langauge, so our knowledge is all a fictional narrative within ourself, that we weave into a story from our own perception according to how we interpret the meaning of our language.

The problem with the God idea, is that we cannot pin an image to God and say that is God or there is God, because concepts are fixed, they cannot be anything other than what they are known for via their actual image seen. So knowledge is all about learning, which is all about creating stories, that build a picture of a reality that makes sense to us according to how we accept what makes sense to us personally.
I agree with what you said.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Why should we be blamed?

Post by Dontaskme »

bahman wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:14 pm
What is "you"? How do you experience it?
There is a sense of being alive. It is that sense alone that is the experience of being. I do not know any more than just the sense of being.
I know I am some sort of awareness because I can experience and know pain and other sensation. I do not know how I am happening.
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Re: Why should we be blamed?

Post by Hermit Philosopher »

bahman wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:52 pm Of course, depends on the definition. But how God could be highest if He does not know the future? There are several religions that followers believe that God has foreknowledge.

An omniscient God, yes, many religions believe in this.

Bear in mind however, that those who also ascribe omnipresence to God may not consider time (i.e. the “future” that you mentioned above) to be something that exists, except for in the human mind. And, if it does not exist, would a real God need to know of it...?


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Re: Why should we be blamed?

Post by bahman »

Hermit Philosopher wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:20 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:52 pm Of course, depends on the definition. But how God could be highest if He does not know the future? There are several religions that followers believe that God has foreknowledge.

An omniscient God, yes, many religions believe in this.

Bear in mind however, that those who also ascribe omnipresence to God may not consider time (i.e. the “future” that you mentioned above) to be something that exists, except for in the human mind. And, if it does not exist, would a real God need to know of it...?


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Catholics for example think that God not only creates things but also sustains them (things cannot simply be existence since otherwise, they are God). Things however on the motion. Therefore God should know the future in order to sustain things.
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bahman
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Re: Why should we be blamed?

Post by bahman »

Dontaskme wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:20 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:14 pm
What is "you"? How do you experience it?
There is a sense of being alive. It is that sense alone that is the experience of being. I do not know any more than just the sense of being.
I know I am some sort of awareness because I can experience and know pain and other sensation. I do not know how I am happening.
You are not happening. You experience, decide and cause. Does this sentence make sense to you?
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Dontaskme
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Re: Why should we be blamed?

Post by Dontaskme »

bahman wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:29 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:20 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:14 pm
What is "you"? How do you experience it?
There is a sense of being alive. It is that sense alone that is the experience of being. I do not know any more than just the sense of being.
I know I am some sort of awareness because I can experience and know pain and other sensation. I do not know how I am happening.
You are not happening. You experience, decide and cause. Does this sentence make sense to you?
Yes it does.

In the sense of I am not living, I am being lived. :idea:
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bahman
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Re: Why should we be blamed?

Post by bahman »

Dontaskme wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:33 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:29 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:20 pm

There is a sense of being alive. It is that sense alone that is the experience of being. I do not know any more than just the sense of being.
I know I am some sort of awareness because I can experience and know pain and other sensation. I do not know how I am happening.
You are not happening. You experience, decide and cause. Does this sentence make sense to you?
Yes it does.
So it is you who make things to happen.
Dontaskme wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:33 pm In the sense of I am not living, I am being lived. :idea:
What do you mean?
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Dontaskme
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Re: Why should we be blamed?

Post by Dontaskme »

bahman wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:36 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:33 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:29 pm
You are not happening. You experience, decide and cause. Does this sentence make sense to you?
Yes it does.
So it is you who make things to happen.
Dontaskme wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:33 pm In the sense of I am not living, I am being lived. :idea:
What do you mean?
There is no you making you happen, there's just happening as and through what is experienced as a you. :idea: But I'm not entirely sure.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Why should we be blamed?

Post by Dontaskme »

bahman wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:27 pm Therefore God should know the future in order to sustain things.
If God knew the future then why would God bother putting the free will idea into it's creation, knowing that free will could change God's will at any time. So God can't be all knowing, or know what's going to happen before it happens. The free will concept wouldn't make sense.
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Re: Why should we be blamed?

Post by Hermit Philosopher »

bahman wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:27 pm
Hermit Philosopher wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:20 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:52 pm Of course, depends on the definition. But how God could be highest if He does not know the future? There are several religions that followers believe that God has foreknowledge.

An omniscient God, yes, many religions believe in this.

Bear in mind however, that those who also ascribe omnipresence to God may not consider time (i.e. the “future” that you mentioned above) to be something that exists, except for in the human mind. And, if it does not exist, would a real God need to know of it...?


Humbly
Hermit
Catholics for example think that God not only creates things but also sustains them (things cannot simply be existence since otherwise, they are God). Things however on the motion. Therefore God should know the future in order to sustain things.

The funny thing is, that if you require that the problem presented in OP only be answered from one particular view of God (e.g. the one you’ve given here above) and your last question is “ how God could be highest [...?] if He does not know the future?” then, can there be other reasonings that your own...?
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