Putting ''Immanuel Can'' In The Religious Spotlight Part 2

[henry quirk]

This means nothing to me, sorry.

a parent worth his salt will sacrifice himself to preserve his child

I agree with this.

The Jesus myth is showing that your god is not even up to par morally with humans as he sent the son to die instead of stepping up himself. What a p****. Right?

Regards
DL

er, I'm not christian, so the myth means nuthin' to me, but...

as I understand it: the father, the son, the holy ghost are all the same person, so: when the son offered himself up, the father and holy ghost offered themselves up as well

[Dontaskme]

a parent worth his salt will sacrifice himself to preserve his child

I agree with this.

The Jesus myth is showing that your god is not even up to par morally with humans as he sent the son to die instead of stepping up himself. What a p****. Right?

Regards
DL

er, I'm not christian, so the myth means nuthin' to me, but...

as I understand it: the father, the son, the holy ghost are all the same person, so: when the son offered himself up, the father and holy ghost offered themselves up as well

I think all this means that the material flesh/body of God is a bit like any other material machine, in that it wears out eventually and has to be replaced by a new upgraded model. Material forms eventually perish (entropy). As material form has a limited life span, and designed so, so that all form can be re-formed within the eternal cycle of re-creation. And yet at the same time, the animating force that makes the inanimate animate never runs out of the power to animate itself as and through each unique material form.
I'm wondering now if that's the death the bible speaks of.

Thats what I think...I think our true identity is the animating power of the body, and the body too, but the body is just the vehicle in service to the animating power that is driving it. . . it's just my idea anyway.

.

[Dontaskme]

Well, it does make sense that it's hard for us to think of a universe without ourselves in it. After all, for every second you and I have ever known, there has been a "self," a "me," or what you call "a knower." But as you also point out, there is no recollection of any time before that -- and yet the universe must have existed before we arrived in it, since without a universe, we'd have had no place to arrive at all.

It reminds me of the idea that there needs to exist in place a stage and some props before the actors can act out their play.

And yes, we cannot think about a time before we are born, nor can we know the mystery of our death. Just like there is no recollection of the sense of being alive, while we are in deep dreamless sleep, it is only upon awakening from our sleep that we know we are aware or awake and no longer asleep, we know we must have slept because we know we can wake up from our sleep.

So I'm thinking death might be like sleeping, that we will one day wake up from, again and again for all eternity. So it really is up to us what kind of a world we want to wake up to, we are the ones responsible for making the world we want to live in, given that we have the knowledge to create the kind of world we want to live in. We are conscious able bodied beings, and the only ones responsible for our own deeds and actions. In knowledge we can achieve anything if we put our right mind to it. I really do believe and have faith that we can achieve greatness and success, simply because we are already supplied and gifted with all the tools to make things happen. Honestly IC, something always seems to change for the better, within my mind, when ever I engage these discussions about what is God with you.

But it's hard to think about. It's like trying to think of "after my death." Nobody really finds it easy to conceive of that. Even when somebody we perhaps know and love dies, and we see the world going on without them in it, we still can't really feel the truth that one day, it will also be us who are in the ground, and the world will go on.

The Bible says this, though:

"He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart, without the possibility that mankind will find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end." (Ecclesiastes 3:11)

That's an interesting statement. Mankind has a sense of "eternity," something that is deeper even that man's knowledge. And the Bible says the reason for all this is that we were created that we should be eternal beings; but we were not eternal in the past, since we are created beings. So both our completely lack of awareness of what came before us, and our difficulty understanding what will be after us are natural.

We have no experience with eternity, and yet a longing for it rests in our hearts, because we were created for eternity.

So your intuition isn't wrong, in one sense. There is a time when we were created, and things began for us; but by way of the nature of the kind of beings we were created to be, they're not to end.

Yes, thanks for the Ecclesiastes 3:11 quote...yes, it does appear that humans have always felt the sense of the eternal, which by my definition just means, God awakens as and through the body mind mechanism that is knowledge. If not for knowledge, life would still have existed, but there would have been no knowledge or reference to what it is.

This forum is very lucky to have you IC because you are a true decent human being, very rare these days. So I say that with pure genuine heartfelt sincerity.

I'm going to order a Bible on Amazon today. Can you believe I haven't even got a Bible in the house. I've always just read the Bible online through the internet, but now I want to own the actual book, do you have any recommendations? thanks!

[Dubious]

I'm going to order a Bible on Amazon today. Can you believe I haven't even got a Bible in the house. I've always just read the Bible online through the internet, but now I want to own the actual book, do you have any recommendations? thanks!

Though it wasn't me who was asked, I ordered this a few days ago....

https://www.amazon.ca/Cultural-Backgrou ... 218&sr=8-1

It contains the OT & NT with an analysis of the times in which each of the books were written. I find it fascinating from a historical perspective. It has over 2400 pages.

[Dontaskme]

I'm going to order a Bible on Amazon today. Can you believe I haven't even got a Bible in the house. I've always just read the Bible online through the internet, but now I want to own the actual book, do you have any recommendations? thanks!

Though it wasn't me who was asked, I ordered this a few days ago....

https://www.amazon.ca/Cultural-Backgrou ... 218&sr=8-1

It contains the OT & NT with an analysis of the times in which each of the books were written. I find it fascinating from a historical perspective. It has over 2400 pages.

Thank you so much. I may consider buying this book. But it's £55 in my country.

I'll wait for IC's advice also.

[Immanuel Can]

So I'm thinking death might be like sleeping, that we will one day wake up from, again and again for all eternity.

Well, a couple of thoughts on that: one is that in order for that to happen, the universe itself would have to be eternal. Would you suppose that it is?
Then there are also statements like this, in the Bible:

"...it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment..." (Hebrews 9:27)

...any recommendations? thanks!

Well, as I imagine you know, the original language in which the Biblical manuscripts were written is Greek. Greek and English have different vocabularies, and even different word-orders, so it's never been possible to translate it into English or French or Swahili, or whatever, in a sort of one-word-for-one way, without creating something hard to read. That means that the translators have always had to make a judgment call between repeating precisely the Greek wording, on the one hand, and making something readable in English, on the other.

So there have been many translations of it -- almost every time there was a major shift in modern English usage, from the 17th to the 20th Centuries, somebody produced a new version that would either be more like the Greek, or else would be more readable for modern audiences. Sometimes they job they did was better, and sometimes not as good; but there were always good, careful translations around.

Today, one of the more popular ones is the English Standard Version, or ESV. It's quite a careful translation, but is also in readable, modern English. I think that's a good balance between the goals of being accurate and being readable.

I hope you enjoy it.

[Dontaskme]

So I'm thinking death might be like sleeping, that we will one day wake up from, again and again for all eternity.

Well, a couple of thoughts on that: one is that in order for that to happen, the universe itself would have to be eternal. Would you suppose that it is?

I don't think the universe is eternal, as it would be like the body, it would have a limited shelf life.
But what I'm thinking is that when awareness is not online, as in a conscious self aware state, it is merely asleep and unaware of the concept of time anyway. In sleep, time is non-existent. So it matters not whether awareness is asleep for 3 billion eternities because whenever awareness awakens into conscious self awareness it's as though it was awake for the very first time anyway, where there is no knowledge of there being any absence of being aware.

Then there are also statements like this, in the Bible:

"...it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment..." (Hebrews 9:27)

I'm not sure what that means IC

...any recommendations? thanks!

Today, one of the more popular ones is the English Standard Version, or ESV. It's quite a careful translation, but is also in readable, modern English. I think that's a good balance between the goals of being accurate and being readable.

I hope you enjoy it.

Thank you so much.

[Immanuel Can]

So I'm thinking death might be like sleeping, that we will one day wake up from, again and again for all eternity.

Well, a couple of thoughts on that: one is that in order for that to happen, the universe itself would have to be eternal. Would you suppose that it is?

I don't think the universe is eternal, as it would be like the body, it would have a limited shelf life.

Well, if that's the case, then the cosmology required by the main Eastern beliefs is not available. For things like Hinduism and Buddhism maintain that the separation of physical and spiritual is, and has to be, eternal. Individuals might get off the wheel of samsara, but the cycle itself is said to be permanent, because it constitutes the existence of the spiritual as well as of the physical.

What that boils down to is that Eastern belief requires an eternal universe. And if this isn't one, then the Eastern traditions have got the situation wrong.

Then there are also statements like this, in the Bible:

"...it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment..." (Hebrews 9:27)

I'm not sure what that means IC

It means that nobody gets multiple "lives." There's one life, one death and then judgment, according to the Bible. And that puts a very serious importance on this life you and I are now living -- it's our one shot to get things right, not just one-of-many-lives we get to try out again and again, as in Hinduism or Buddhism.

It also means everything you do, and everything you are, is valuable. There are no "do-overs." And there's only one "you."

[Dontaskme]

I don't think the universe is eternal, as it would be like the body, it would have a limited shelf life.

Well, if that's the case, then the cosmology required by the main Eastern beliefs is not available. For things like Hinduism and Buddhism maintain that the separation of physical and spiritual is, and has to be, eternal. Individuals might get off the wheel of samsara, but the cycle itself is said to be permanent, because it constitutes the existence of the spiritual as well as of the physical.

What that boils down to is that Eastern belief requires an eternal universe. And if this isn't one, then the Eastern traditions have got the situation wrong.

I've shifted my focus since listening to your posts. I've been paying close attention to your posts for a long time. I agree with what you are saying.

The problem is trying to separate the wheat from the chaff when it comes to different cultural beliefs... so I've kind of being doing the rounds trying on all sorts of suits so to speak. But I always return to the original word of God, the Bible.

Then there are also statements like this, in the Bible:

"...it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment..." (Hebrews 9:27)

It means that nobody gets multiple "lives." There's one life, one death and then judgment, according to the Bible. And that puts a very serious importance on this life you and I are now living -- it's our one shot to get things right, not just one-of-many-lives we get to try out again and again, as in Hinduism or Buddhism.

It also means everything you do, and everything you are, is valuable. There are no "do-overs." And there's only one "you."

I'll take you only get one chance command. It makes perfect sense. Otherwise, life would just continue to be wayward backward and no learning from mistakes would ever take root.

[Immanuel Can]

... I've kind of being doing the rounds trying on all sorts of suits so to speak. But I always return to the original word of God, the Bible.

I understand.

Sometimes "doing the rounds" is exactly the right thing to do. To know what you do believe, sometimes it's necessary to have a look at why you don't want to believe other things. I became a Christian when I was studying the theories of agnostics and even determined Atheists. I would say that the agnostic Thomas Hardy was a key moment in my thinking, and I've often found both Nietzsche and Hume helpful, though both would absolutely detest me saying so. When I was doing some "comparative religions" stuff, I also read the Tao, the Bhagavad Gita, the Dhammapada and the Koran in a single summer, just so I would know the other side of things. I've found that sometimes, looking around can be very helpful, and even confirming.

The point is always not to get lost on the way. That's always the trick, of course; because philosophies all have their various attractions and distractions. For me, the bottom line has always been the person of Jesus Christ. It's not just that He has this business of being a human being, and winning the moral and ethical struggle through the world down perfectly, although I think that's true...it's the power of His character, His identity, if I dare say it, His personality...the "who He is" of it all. And that's the "rope" that's continually pulled me back to Christianity.

It makes perfect sense. Otherwise, life would just continue to be wayward backward and no learning from mistakes would ever take root.

Well, yes...that's one of the problems with reincarnation. If you forgot your previous life, now do you know what your role, your dharma, in this life really is? All you can do is assume that if you were born into privilege, you must somehow have deserved it from your last life; and if you are born into wretchedness, well, that's also got to be what you deserve. And nobody should help you up, because it's your dharma, your duty, to be what you are. Unless you do your dharma, how will you be improved in your next reincarnated life?

In fact, that's why in a place like India, there was a caste system in place (and still is, to a great extend do today, especially in "traditional" areas), a system that says that some people are "Brahmin," meaning top dogs, or one of the lesser subclasses; but far more are are "Dalits" (meaning "untouchables"), the sort of "human trash" at the bottom of the karma scheme, whose destiny is literally to carry the faeces of the privileged classes. (It's hard to believe that's actually true, but here... https://time.com/3172895/dalits-sewage- ... dia-caste/).

Now, how does that Hindu perspective on the poor compare to the perspective offered by Jesus Christ? If you find you're like me, you'll find that that sort of difference draws you back over and over again to Him.

[Dontaskme]

I too am always pulled back to Jesus.

Even the Muslims acknowledged Jesus as a very likeable character.

Many many paths, all but lead to the same destination, is my motto. But Jesus is and always will be the end of the path. He is my king and I am his queen. It's the perfect marriage.
A marriage of unconditional love and understanding. Pity it is so rare to find that relationship between two people for real.

I've never met my perfect Jesus Man on earth yet. But I guess he'll come one day, I can only live in faith that one day it will happen. Meanwhile until it happens, I'm just happy to be chilling with me myself and I until I die ..Hey ho a solo life for me is better than misery.

.

[Immanuel Can]

Even the Muslims acknowledged Jesus as a very likeable character.

A "likeable character"?

Well, the Koran goes much farther: it actually calls him "a prophet of God."

But it reminds one of something Jesus said:

“Now why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?" (Luke 6:46)

[Dontaskme]

Even the Muslims acknowledged Jesus as a very likeable character.

A "likeable character"?

Well, the Koran goes much farther: it actually calls him "a prophet of God."

But it reminds one of something Jesus said:

“Now why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?" (Luke 6:46)

Haha!

Too true.

I do own the Koran book. There was a Muslim Family that used to live next door to me. The man of the family gave me a copy for free. I've still got it. We used to have long chats about Jesus, and how Islam and Christianity are capable of being really good friends.

[Sculptor]

Even the Muslims acknowledged Jesus as a very likeable character.

A "likeable character"?

Well, the Koran goes much farther: it actually calls him "a prophet of God."

But it reminds one of something Jesus said:

“Now why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?" (Luke 6:46)

Haha!

Too true.

I do own the Koran book. There was a Muslim Family that used to live next door to me. The man of the family gave me a copy for free. I've still got it. We used to have long chats about Jesus, and how Islam and Christianity are capable of being really good friends.

1.3 Billion flies around shit can't be wrong

[Dontaskme]

1.3 Billion flies around shit can't be wrong

No shit sherlock.

Where's that smell coming from, ooh I guess that's me.