I am who I am

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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AlexW
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Re: I am who I am

Post by AlexW »

Atla wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 5:43 am You've probably lost it then. Yes when the conceptual mental activity ceases, most people get into a more blissful state, but that's just a more basic psychological state. If you cling to that psychological state and pretend that it's something more than that, you are still chasing something.
No, I haven't lost anything and I am also not chasing anything - its always there, but not as an ecstatic overwhelming bliss.
Its a bit like having a name, Atla, you know it, yet you don't walk around yelling it out loud all the time :-)
Atla wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 5:43 am The 'I am' has no such nature. A hilarious counterexample was U. G. Krishnamurti who never got this blissful state at all upon awakening, rather the contrary, he called it the calamity.
I know, I have read most of UG, and even he seems to understand he is missing something (at least for me) - he misses heart... thats how it feels to me...
Then again, I have never met the guy... and as he died in 2007 its to late now anyway... so who knows :-)
Atla wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 5:43 am And why should we think that what God says in the Bible, has anything with the ground of being?
Well... because some of it sounds like it has been written by someone who experienced "God / I am" and then put this into (sometimes cryptic) writing.
Its nothing new... most traditions have their base in non-dual love and happiness (and definitely not in hatred).
Atla wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 5:43 am Why do you think that the primitive tribal god of the Israelites had anything to do with nondualism.
Because of statements like: "I am that I am" and many other quotes that seem to point into this direction - but it could of course also be just accidental...
Atla
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Re: I am who I am

Post by Atla »

AlexW wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 5:54 am
Atla wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 5:43 am You've probably lost it then. Yes when the conceptual mental activity ceases, most people get into a more blissful state, but that's just a more basic psychological state. If you cling to that psychological state and pretend that it's something more than that, you are still chasing something.
No, I haven't lost anything and I am also not chasing anything - its always there, but not as an ecstatic overwhelming bliss.
Its a bit like having a name, Atla, you know it, yet you don't walk around yelling it out loud all the time :-)
Atla wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 5:43 am The 'I am' has no such nature. A hilarious counterexample was U. G. Krishnamurti who never got this blissful state at all upon awakening, rather the contrary, he called it the calamity.
I know, I have read most of UG, and even he seems to understand he is missing something (at least for me) - he misses heart... thats how it feels to me...
Then again, I have never met the guy... and as he died in 2007 its to late now anyway... so who knows :-)
Atla wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 5:43 am And why should we think that what God says in the Bible, has anything with the ground of being?
Well... because some of it sounds like it has been written by someone who experienced "God / I am" and then put this into (sometimes cryptic) writing.
Its nothing new... most traditions have their base in non-dual love and happiness (and definitely not in hatred).
Atla wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 5:43 am Why do you think that the primitive tribal god of the Israelites had anything to do with nondualism.
Because of statements like: "I am that I am" and many other quotes that seem to point into this direction - but it could of course also be just accidental...
It's just psychology. Don't tell me you never leave that basic blissful state anymore for short periods?
AlexW
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Re: I am who I am

Post by AlexW »

Atla wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 5:59 am It's just psychology. Don't tell me you never leave that basic blissful state anymore for short periods?
As I see it, the “blissful state” is not a state, its the quality of being.
Sure, I don’t always “feel” it, it happens that I think about stuff that is not blissful at all and then negative emotions arise, but somehow, even in pain, the core of the sensation is actually “made of” the same “substance”.
Atla
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Re: I am who I am

Post by Atla »

AlexW wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 9:00 am
Atla wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 5:59 am It's just psychology. Don't tell me you never leave that basic blissful state anymore for short periods?
As I see it, the “blissful state” is not a state, its the quality of being.
Sure, I don’t always “feel” it, it happens that I think about stuff that is not blissful at all and then negative emotions arise, but somehow, even in pain, the core of the sensation is actually “made of” the same “substance”.
Yes, as I said, you've probably lost it. That's the Standard Eastern delusion. Why does almost every nondualist end up like this?

Being has no quality, the Brahman is empty. I think you guys are just too weak to deal with that.
AlexW
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Re: I am who I am

Post by AlexW »

Atla wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 9:16 am Yes, as I said, you've probably lost it. That's the Standard Eastern delusion. Why does almost every nondualist end up like this?

Being has no quality, the Brahman is empty. I think you guys are just too weak to deal with that.
I don’t know where you get this idea from... no, nothing has been lost.
Just because being is empty of conceptual qualities, it doesn’t mean one cant try to use concepts to describe it.
What quality does dreamless sleep have? None, it’s perfectly empty of dualistic qualities, yet, once you conceptualise, we call it restful, peaceful.
Its the same with being.

I don’t have a problem at all with Brahman being empty, yet, at the same time, being wholesome and all embracing.
Do you?
Atla
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Re: I am who I am

Post by Atla »

AlexW wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 9:32 am
Atla wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 9:16 am Yes, as I said, you've probably lost it. That's the Standard Eastern delusion. Why does almost every nondualist end up like this?

Being has no quality, the Brahman is empty. I think you guys are just too weak to deal with that.
I don’t know where you get this idea from... no, nothing has been lost.
Just because being is empty of conceptual qualities, it doesn’t mean one cant try to use concepts to describe it.
What quality does dreamless sleep have? None, it’s perfectly empty of dualistic qualities, yet, once you conceptualise, we call it restful, peaceful.
Its the same with being.

I don’t have a problem at all with Brahman being empty, yet, at the same time, being wholesome and all embracing.
Do you?
Being isn't just conceptually empty, it's also void of sensations like blissfullness. Blissfullness is only a psychological thing that happens in your head. Being doesn't 'embrace' anything. Stop dancing around the issue.
AlexW
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Re: I am who I am

Post by AlexW »

Atla wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 9:51 am Being isn't just conceptually empty, it's also void of sensations like blissfullness. Blissfullness is only a psychological thing that happens in your head. Being doesn't 'embrace' anything. Stop dancing around the issue.
You seem to have an unusual understanding of emptiness...
Do you think sensations are also just a psychological thing?

Of course being doesn’t literally embrace anything, and the word blissful is just a label, like anything we can say using language, but you still see, hear, feel, don’t you? What are these sensations to you?
Atla
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Re: I am who I am

Post by Atla »

AlexW wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 10:55 am
Atla wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 9:51 am Being isn't just conceptually empty, it's also void of sensations like blissfullness. Blissfullness is only a psychological thing that happens in your head. Being doesn't 'embrace' anything. Stop dancing around the issue.
You seem to have an unusual understanding of emptiness...
Do you think sensations are also just a psychological thing?

Of course being doesn’t literally embrace anything, and the word blissful is just a label, like anything we can say using language, but you still see, hear, feel, don’t you? What are these sensations to you?
Sensations, feelings etc. like blissfullness are happening in the human head. But they are not inherent to Brahman/being in general. What's difficult about this?
AlexW
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Re: I am who I am

Post by AlexW »

Atla wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:06 am Sensations, feelings etc. like blissfullness are happening in the human head.
Is that your experience? Something happening in a head?
How do you know its “in your head”?
Atla wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:06 am But they are not inherent to Brahman/being in general.
What then is inherent to being?
Atla wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:06 am What's difficult about this?
Did I say it’s difficult?
Atla
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Re: I am who I am

Post by Atla »

AlexW wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:16 am
Atla wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:06 am Sensations, feelings etc. like blissfullness are happening in the human head.
Is that your experience? Something happening in a head?
How do you know its “in your head”?
Atla wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:06 am But they are not inherent to Brahman/being in general.
What then is inherent to being?
Atla wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:06 am What's difficult about this?
Did I say it’s difficult?
Don't you know that human psychological stuff like feelings and sensations is basically located in human heads?
AlexW
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Re: I am who I am

Post by AlexW »

Atla wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:26 am Don't you know that human psychological stuff like feelings and sensations is basically located in human heads?
That’s your answer?
We don’t have to discuss this Atla, it’s perfectly fine with me if you don’t agree.
Why are you so aggressive about it? Take a deep breath and feel... being :-)
Atla
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Re: I am who I am

Post by Atla »

AlexW wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:32 am
Atla wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:26 am Don't you know that human psychological stuff like feelings and sensations is basically located in human heads?
That’s your answer?
We don’t have to discuss this Atla, it’s perfectly fine with me if you don’t agree.
Why are you so aggressive about it? Take a deep breath and feel... being :-)
Well if you really turn out to be thoroughly fucked up like that, then don't be surprised to be treated accordingly. Also, you bring a bad name to nondualism.
AlexW
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Re: I am who I am

Post by AlexW »

Ok, let’s end this discussion then.
Atla
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Re: I am who I am

Post by Atla »

AlexW wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:41 am Ok, let’s end this discussion then.
Yes run away, and run away from the real world, and wallow in your 'blissfullness' you weak, narcissistic failure. :)
AlexW
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Re: I am who I am

Post by AlexW »

I am happy to discuss this with you, but if all you can do is swear, then we are not going to get anywhere... are you really that insecure that you need rude words to cover your fear of potentially being wrong?
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