What causes muslims to be violent

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Immanuel Can
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Re: What causes muslims to be violent

Post by Immanuel Can »

gaffo wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 11:45 pm
Amimals nature - no souls? - is a weak point of your Human centric Religion all western ones are weak in the nature of animals, theologically they are ignored sadly.
I don't think they are at all. I can't imagine where you got that idea.
then provide a works in the canon that addresses this.
Genesis obviously does. It tells us what animals were created for. However, there's no reason to fault any belief system for putting mankind on a different level from animals -- nobody does anything else...especially the environmentalist/animal rights people, who expect human beings to be the only creature to have a moral perspective on, and some special responsibility for animals. They never ask such a thing of the foxes, fish and amoebae.

If all animals were equal, they would.
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:05 am There is no division between Messiah and Jesus; they are the same Person, and there is no other.
I believe, from reading the bible, that the synoptics (and Gospel of John too) affirmed the above. but Saul did not,
Oh, you're most certainly wrong about that. There's lots of evidence Paul believed in the Resurrection and Messiahship of Jesus.

Hope you're doing well.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: What causes muslims to be violent

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vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:08 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 11:37 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 11:30 pm Go and read the the Communist manifesto...
Done. It's boring, immoral and stupid, but it's doable.

But how do you make this toxic thing called "Communism" -- which you admit has been toxic in every single use it's had so far -- into something safe?

And where is this "true Communism" of yours? How did you come to know it exists...since you admit it has never existed?
Not my job to make it into anything. I'm only reporting facts.
Don't be silly.

You said you know that "true Communism" has never existed. If you had no idea what "true Communism" meant, you couldn't know any such thing. After all, maybe Russian or Chinese or African Communism WAS the "true Communism": you would have no way to contradict that if you didn't think you knew what "true Communism" is.

All the while, you're admitting that good Communism has certainly never existed. But you expect it to emerge in the future? Even while not knowing what "true Communism" or "good Communism" would even be? :shock:

Nobody can make sense of that combination of claims. So you should explain yourself, if you know what you're talking about.
gaffo
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Re: What causes muslims to be violent

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:29 pm
PeteJ wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:43 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:39 pm Many Pentecostals do seem quite happy, in fact. I was merely suggesting that the erratic up-and-down emotionalism involved in it seems to suit up-and-down emotional people. And maybe he has quite good reasons to be feeling down now. I would not expect they were caused by his belief, but by something else. However, a more level, stable kind of belief would certainly likely to help someone through depression, in a way up-and-down religiosity tends not to do.
I just happened to spot this comment. I know a few Pentecostalists and it struck a chord. It seems insightful. Clearly some believers are attracted by this sort of emotionalism.
I think it's not true of all religious groups, because not all religious groups are elective, and not all exist in polities in which moving from one group to another is permitted by government or where choice is limited to one big religion (like in Islamic states) forcing it's particular version on everyone.
not to exclude Catholism in South American nations, Hinduism in India - where the culture of assumilation to the major faith has been equally strong, though granted that wall is weakening the last 30 yrs or so.

may those same walls weaken for the Yemeni's and Saudi's soon........not personally hopeful of it, but would welcome it.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: What causes muslims to be violent

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:12 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:08 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 11:37 pm
Done. It's boring, immoral and stupid, but it's doable.

But how do you make this toxic thing called "Communism" -- which you admit has been toxic in every single use it's had so far -- into something safe?

And where is this "true Communism" of yours? How did you come to know it exists...since you admit it has never existed?
Not my job to make it into anything. I'm only reporting facts.
Don't be silly.

You said you know that "true Communism" has never existed. If you had no idea what "true Communism" meant, you couldn't know any such thing. After all, maybe Russian or Chinese or African Communism WAS the "true Communism": you would have no way to contradict that if you didn't think you knew what "true Communism" is.

All the while, you're admitting that good Communism has certainly never existed. But you expect it to emerge in the future? Even while not knowing what "true Communism" or "good Communism" would even be? :shock:

Nobody can make sense of that combination of claims. So you should explain yourself, if you know what you're talking about.
Oh my god. You really don't have a clue what I'm talking about do you. I never once used the word 'good', so why are you using quotation marks?
Poor, uneducated yank moron. I will leave you to your cluelessness.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: What causes muslims to be violent

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vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:17 am Oh my god. You really don't have a clue what I'm talking about do you. I never once used the word 'good', so why are you using quotation marks?
Merely to indicate the expression was in doubt. If you consult a manual of style, you'll discover it's a standard way to punctuate. But don't worry: you can drop "good" and just answer regarding what you call "true Communism."

But you have no answer. I knew that.
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Re: What causes muslims to be violent

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:24 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:17 am Oh my god. You really don't have a clue what I'm talking about do you. I never once used the word 'good', so why are you using quotation marks?
Merely to indicate the expression was in doubt. If you consult a manual of style, you'll discover it's a standard way to punctuate. But don't worry: you can drop "good" and just answer regarding what you call "true Communism."

But you have no answer. I knew that.
Why are you responding?
gaffo
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Re: What causes muslims to be violent

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:33 pm
Belinda wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:54 pm I think this is all very true. I'd like to add that some families, neighbourhoods, and ethnic groups encourage emotionality while others encourage keeping emotions well hidden from view.
Yes, that's true.

Now, in Islam, there are various sects -- though Islam prefers us all to think there is only one Ummah, one Islam, and that the proliferation of sects raises questions about the validity of a religion, and particularly about Judaism and Christianity. But the proliferation of sects is tied to other concerns than truthfulness, such as the availability of choice and the seriousness with which people are treating theology within their groups (stronger belief tends to produce more sects). Judaism famously has four major divisions, plus lesser ones, for example. And they are separated by the degree of intensity with which they adhere to various traditions, teachers or texts. But all are accepted within Judaism, albeit with some internal grumbling.

Islam has two major divisions, the Shia and the Sunni, and then minor sub-sects, like the Sufis, the Ahmadi and the Bahai. The latter three, especially in the west, tend to be much more liberal than the first two: but the first two are also vastly dominant. But there is a remarkable degree of hatred between the Shia and the Sunni. You can see that in Iran/Iraq tensions and wars, for example. Even in western contexts, the two often will have nothing to do with each other -- to the point of even refusing to sit beside each other, denying that each other's mosques are really mosques, or saying that the other side drinks urine, and other such canards. (I have seen all this first hand.)

So even a religion as autocratic and tyrannical as Islam has sects. All religions end up with them. However, in Islam, the Sunnis are about 80% and the Shia about 20%...the remainder of sects being absorbed in one or the other, or else excluded by both from any consideration as genuine Islam.
So you do know something about Islam, i suspect i know more though.

there are 5 sects of Islam BTW, and the Ahmadiyya are not any more western than any other Sect of Islam (persons from all the sects may be western or not). Ahmadiyya Muslims formed in Pakistan 400 yrs ago via a "prophet" and gained followers to him (just like the Mormans, and Sikhs)

BTW the main divide is between the Shia and Sunni, but the real percentage is 15/85 (it is like the divide between Prots and Catholics)- there is no theological division between then (outside of small stuff like kosher - Shia do not eat shellfish) - the main divide between them is via history, Ali/vs whomeever during the first 50 yrs of Islam - Shia thought only a decendent of Mohammed could become Caliphate, the Sunni did not - and thus the "War" of succession - purely political, not theological.

Sufie are Sunni Spirituallists - there may be a similar Shia sect, but i do not know of them is there is one. Sufies are an outgrowth of contact with India - via the Mogol conquest of India - some Muslims found value in hinduism and incorporated the latter's mindset into Islam.

Allowites - make up a huge 1-percent of Syria - worship Ali (Mohammed's nephew?) - as semi-devine (Christlike) - this is heresy of course per Islam proper (Ahmadiyya is the same - they may nor worship their prophet as devine, but affirm him - and per islam proper there can not be any later prophets than mohhomad).

Allowites rule Syria and though only make up 1-percent of Shia, Syria is majority Sunni! - so the ruling party of Syria is from a minoriy heretical sect of a minority sect of islam - Syrians are majority Sunni!!!!!! - and explains why the Syrian gov allows the militia Hezbollah to rule Lebanon - they being Shia, though not Allowite shia, is good enough for the gov of Syria to use them (and vise versa) - to secure their powers in lands that are made up of 90-percent Sunni.

----------------------

so sects of Islam = in order of population:

1. Sunni (82 percent)
2. Shia (15 percent)
3. Ahmadiyya (2 percent)
4. Sufi (who are Sunni as i said above) - 3?? percent?
5. Allowite - 1/5th percent?

education/internet is a wonderful thing.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: What causes muslims to be violent

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vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:31 am Why are you responding?
Confirming. I owed you a chance to show you knew something about what you were talking about.

Mystery solved.
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Re: What causes muslims to be violent

Post by gaffo »

PeteJ wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:58 pm
Would I be correct in thinking that the Shia faith is more sympathetic to Sufism than that of the Sunnis?
no, the Sunnis in Afghanistan at the time invaded Pakistan and India via the mogals 600 yrs ago, and soon after some of them became Sunni Sufis.

Shia (Iran) never invaded india and so never encounted Hinuism to allow for thier own form of Sufism.

PeteJ wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:58 pm I ask because some of the saying of Imam Ali, the first Shia Imam, might have been said by a Sufi.
??????????? - don't understand, but welcome understanding.

the death of Ali was the whole reason for the split - and why we now have Shia and Sunni.
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Re: What causes muslims to be violent

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:38 pm
PeteJ wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:58 pm Would I be correct in thinking that the Shia faith is more sympathetic to Sufism than that of the Sunnis?
They seem to be, so far as the NYT and other sources say. I can't say I have ever met a Sufi, let alone asked a Shiite about their views on them, so I can't speak personally about that. All I can tell you is the Shiites and the Sunnis really hate each other.
learn history, the sunni invaded India, not the Shia, so Sufis are Sunni.
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Re: What causes muslims to be violent

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BTW, forgot to add one (the only - only one i know of) of the theological differences bet Shia and Sunni is via the Endtimes.

Shia believe that when the Endtimes (apocalypse) happens, the 12th Imam will be there - i.e. the 12th generation ancestor of Mohammed - and so the whole "13th imam living in a cave/limbo until there - the "hidden imam" - the "Mahdi").

trivia:

dickish Sunni Muslims call thier Shia brethren "12vers" a disparaging term.

in arabic i assume. lol.
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Re: What causes muslims to be violent

Post by gaffo »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:08 am
gaffo wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 11:45 pm
I don't think they are at all. I can't imagine where you got that idea.
then provide a works in the canon that addresses this.


Genesis obviously does. It tells us what animals were created for.
ok tell me more.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:08 am However, there's no reason to fault any belief system for putting mankind on a different level from animals

why not?
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:08 am -- nobody does anything else...
Western Religions are human centric, Eastern ones are not (Jainism/Buddism/Hinduism).

so, no you are wrong, some actually do take the animal kingdom in mind per their theologies. none of them are Western Religions however (a limitation of their theology IMO). since god/s made man and the billions of other animals on this dirtball (not to mention the other trillions of other dirtballs out there with "alien" life - past/present and future).

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:08 am
especially the environmentalist/animal rights people, who expect human beings to be the only creature to have a moral perspective on, and some special responsibility for animals. They never ask such a thing of the foxes, fish and amoebae.
not interested in your "squirrel"! nonsecutor segway into bullshit politics.

so no interest nor comment.



Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:08 am
I believe, from reading the bible, that the synoptics (and Gospel of John too) affirmed the above. but Saul did not,
Oh, you're most certainly wrong about that. There's lots of evidence Paul believed in the Resurrection and Messiahship of Jesus.[/quote]

ok, provide your evidence, so we may discuss.

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:08 am Hope you're doing well.
well enough, thanks for asking.

and you?
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Re: What causes muslims to be violent

Post by gaffo »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:17 am
Poor, uneducated yank moron. I will leave you to your cluelessness.
Emanual is no Yank - in fact he - like you goes out of his way to state he is not an American (like it is a shame to be one - i of course am a yank). He refuses to state his nationality, but all clues point to Canadian, which if i were a betting men (not BTW) - i'd wager 80 percent he is a Canuck.
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Re: What causes muslims to be violent

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:47 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:31 am Why are you responding?
Confirming. I owed you a chance to show you knew something about what you were talking about.

Mystery solved.
Why are you responding?
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Re: What causes muslims to be violent

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

gaffo wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 6:09 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:17 am
Poor, uneducated yank moron. I will leave you to your cluelessness.
Emanual is no Yank - in fact he - like you goes out of his way to state he is not an American (like it is a shame to be one - i of course am a yank). He refuses to state his nationality, but all clues point to Canadian, which if i were a betting men (not BTW) - i'd wager 80 percent he is a Canuck.
He's stupid enough to be one. I thought Canadians were a bit more intelligent than Americans.
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