How Jesus could be left alone?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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gaffo
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Re: How Jesus could be left alone?

Post by gaffo »

attofishpi wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:13 pm
Lacewing wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:11 pm
attofishpi wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:06 pm

Don't know where you quoted that from.

But ya....challenge me.

Seriously....challenge my misunderstanding of reality.
I quoted it from my previous post. It's what I said. I'm asking you "do you not see truth in it"? Why do you have to immediately jump to being an asshole when I made a perfectly reasonable statement in a philosophy forum?
lol. the very fact that you think you posted something reasonable is LMFAO material.

Wot U got LW>?
I suspect Lacewing is one of the "anti god" type of atheists. I would like LW to clarify for herself though.

I'm just one of the silent majority of Athiest, never born into Religion. and so athiest out of lack of evidence for existance of. not a war with. and have read and know of religion and history.

so what is your story Att? curious.
gaffo
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Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: How Jesus could be left alone?

Post by gaffo »

attofishpi wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:38 pm Fuck me. No argument. No Challenge. Sleep on it....may great spiritual wisdom come to your short sighted atheist mind.

UR The Curse of the Black Goat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMG-x4Z ... PQ&index=4
come on now, goats newver chose to be born as goats.

nor to be born black - many fine folks were born the latter, and many kind goats were born the former.

so come on! no need to disparage goats nor blackness...........be it an animal or man.

its all about character, as you know well.

and ya animals have character - from dicks to kind nature - though lack the higher corporal nature of man and dolphins, their nature is individual, and not related to their coat color or if they happen to be a goat or not.
gaffo
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Re: How Jesus could be left alone?

Post by gaffo »

seeds wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:37 pm
bahman wrote: Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:07 pm It appears that the last thing that Jesus said was "Oh God why you have forsaken me?". How this separation could happen if Jesus and God are one.
The tri-fold Abrahamic enterprise in a nutshell:

1. Judaism zeroed-in on the idea that there is only one Supreme Being presiding over the universe.
no, prior to 587 BC Judaism was fully Polytheistic, i.e. the Jewish God YHWH (there was a debate about YHWH being "God" or El (YHWH daddy) - read Exodus. Exodus claimed they were the same and so forced them into one, even though historically El was YHWH's dad, (Baal was YHWH brother BTW).



3. Islam established the absolute sovereignty and, especially, the ineffability** of the Supreme Being, while simultaneously correcting the misguided nonsense where Christian authorities mistakenly declared the existence of a Trinity.


_______
[/quote]

Islam is identical to Judaism - post 587 - and mandates that YHWH is Allah and had no "son".
Dubious
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Re: How Jesus could be left along?

Post by Dubious »

gaffo wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:41 pm Disagree, i take Saul at his word when he said he tormented the Chrsitians as a young thug, i reject that he invented the Ressurection mythos.
I didn't say he invented the Resurrection story. He simply applied an old story which long preceded Paul and presented in all kinds of ways to Jesus and thereby became the prime projenitor of Christianity. Jesus, as it seems, was just an excuse.
gaffo
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Re: How Jesus could be left along?

Post by gaffo »

Dubious wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:51 am
gaffo wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:41 pm Disagree, i take Saul at his word when he said he tormented the Chrsitians as a young thug, i reject that he invented the Ressurection mythos.
I didn't say he invented the Resurrection story. He simply applied an old story which long preceded Paul and presented in all kinds of ways to Jesus and thereby became the prime projenitor of Christianity. Jesus, as it seems, was just an excuse.
ok, thanks for clarification, agreed.

to add, the concept of God having a son was heresy per Judiasm proper, but by the time of Christ, where Judea had been occupied for 4 centuries - first by the persians, then the greeks then the romans, the theological concept of a messiah (a mortal king to deliver the jews for foriegn rule) had taken root, as had the hellenization of judiasm, to allow not just the concept of a mortal jewish king to rule, but one of devine birth - the son of god himself! - to be an allowed concept among enough jews to allow christianity to get its start and to later convert many non-jews to that religion.

in hindsight, author of Job's "question not God as to why evil exists" was not a good enough answer, and so Christianity was born.
Dubious
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Joined: Tue May 19, 2015 7:40 am

Re: How Jesus could be left along?

Post by Dubious »

gaffo wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 1:00 am
Dubious wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:51 am
gaffo wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:41 pm Disagree, i take Saul at his word when he said he tormented the Chrsitians as a young thug, i reject that he invented the Ressurection mythos.
I didn't say he invented the Resurrection story. He simply applied an old story which long preceded Paul and presented in all kinds of ways to Jesus and thereby became the prime projenitor of Christianity. Jesus, as it seems, was just an excuse.
ok, thanks for clarification, agreed.

to add, the concept of God having a son was heresy per Judiasm proper, but by the time of Christ, where Judea had been occupied for 4 centuries - first by the persians, then the greeks then the romans, the theological concept of a messiah (a mortal king to deliver the jews for foriegn rule) had taken root, as had the hellenization of judiasm, to allow not just the concept of a mortal jewish king to rule, but one of devine birth - the son of god himself! - to be an allowed concept among enough jews to allow christianity to get its start and to later convert many non-jews to that religion.

in hindsight, author of Job's "question not God as to why evil exists" was not a good enough answer, and so Christianity was born.
That's pretty well the way it was. The chronology is correct but it was the Babylonians who conquered Judea - the period in which the Old Testament was written; the Persians next conquered Babylon so Judea came under Persian rule. It was fun and games in those days!
seeds
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Re: How Jesus could be left alone?

Post by seeds »

seeds wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:37 pm The tri-fold Abrahamic enterprise in a nutshell:

1. Judaism zeroed-in on the idea that there is only one Supreme Being presiding over the universe.
gaffo wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:23 pm no, prior to 587 BC Judaism was fully Polytheistic, i.e. the Jewish God YHWH (there was a debate about YHWH being "God" or El (YHWH daddy) - read Exodus. Exodus claimed they were the same and so forced them into one, even though historically El was YHWH's dad, (Baal was YHWH brother BTW).
gaffo, according to Wiki:
Wiki wrote: During the Iron Age, the Israelite religion became distinct from the Canaanite polytheism out of which it evolved. This process began with the development of Yahwism, the monolatristic worship of Yahweh that gave acknowledgment to the existence, but suppressed the worship, of other Canaanite gods. Later, this monolatristic belief cemented into a strict monotheistic belief and worship of Yahweh alone, with the rejection of the existence of all other gods, whether Canaanite or foreign.
(bolding mine)

Setting aside the fact that I was trying to present the Abrahamic enterprise in a “NUTSHELL,” what do you think the term “zeroed-in on” means?

The point is that regardless of what Judaism evolved from, it “zeroed-in” on and concretized into a strict form of monotheism.

Christianity then deviated from that by declaring the Godhead as being a Trinity.

While Islam took hold of the reins and steered the project back towards monotheism.

In which case, I was merely attempting to point out to bahman that if there is no Trinity, then, again, the question Jesus asked of God...

(“My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”)

...was perfectly reasonable.
_______
Belinda
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Re: How Jesus could be left alone?

Post by Belinda »

Regarding
(“My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”)
What did whoever originated the utterance mean by it?

What does the utterance mean to you?

Are two different questions.
seeds
Posts: 1011
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:31 pm

Re: How Jesus could be left alone?

Post by seeds »

Belinda wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 9:50 am Regarding
(“My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”)
What did whoever originated the utterance mean by it?

What does the utterance mean to you?

Are two different questions.
Well, Belinda, first off,...

(and keeping in mind that we are talking about something that may not have happened in precisely the way it is portrayed in the Bible)

...the utterance is obviously (allegedly) attributed to Jesus as he was dying on the cross.

In which case, I am guessing that because dying on a cross totally sucks, Jesus may have been getting a little distressed as to why God was allowing the ordeal to go on for so long.

And as to what the utterance means to me? I think the above pretty much covers that.

What are you getting at?
_______
gaffo
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Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: How Jesus could be left along?

Post by gaffo »

Dubious wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 1:25 am
gaffo wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 1:00 am
Dubious wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:51 am

I didn't say he invented the Resurrection story. He simply applied an old story which long preceded Paul and presented in all kinds of ways to Jesus and thereby became the prime projenitor of Christianity. Jesus, as it seems, was just an excuse.
ok, thanks for clarification, agreed.

to add, the concept of God having a son was heresy per Judiasm proper, but by the time of Christ, where Judea had been occupied for 4 centuries - first by the persians, then the greeks then the romans, the theological concept of a messiah (a mortal king to deliver the jews for foriegn rule) had taken root, as had the hellenization of judiasm, to allow not just the concept of a mortal jewish king to rule, but one of devine birth - the son of god himself! - to be an allowed concept among enough jews to allow christianity to get its start and to later convert many non-jews to that religion.

in hindsight, author of Job's "question not God as to why evil exists" was not a good enough answer, and so Christianity was born.
That's pretty well the way it was. The chronology is correct but it was the Babylonians who conquered Judea - the period in which the Old Testament was written; the Persians next conquered Babylon so Judea came under Persian rule. It was fun and games in those days!
ys, i know that history, but excluded the Babylonians (IMO there probably was and ark (a golden chest) - Babs just melted it down) because the Babylonians really were not relivent WRT to Judiasm, they took the top 20 percent to Babylon, and lest the rest in Judea - and allowed both camps to continue their practices.

Job, the book IMO concerns the occupation from Persian onward, for there was great hope - Zarrababel anyone? - that the persians after defeating the Babylonians, would allow Judea to be free.

that did not happen, then the greeks (minus the 70 yrs under the Macabees - where they did have liberty for a time - then the romans.


thanks for reply.
gaffo
Posts: 3488
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: How Jesus could be left alone?

Post by gaffo »

seeds wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:00 am
seeds wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:37 pm The tri-fold Abrahamic enterprise in a nutshell:

1. Judaism zeroed-in on the idea that there is only one Supreme Being presiding over the universe.
gaffo wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:23 pm no, prior to 587 BC Judaism was fully Polytheistic, i.e. the Jewish God YHWH (there was a debate about YHWH being "God" or El (YHWH daddy) - read Exodus. Exodus claimed they were the same and so forced them into one, even though historically El was YHWH's dad, (Baal was YHWH brother BTW).
gaffo, according to Wiki:
Wiki wrote: During the Iron Age, the Israelite religion became distinct from the Canaanite polytheism out of which it evolved. This process began with the development of Yahwism, the monolatristic worship of Yahweh that gave acknowledgment to the existence, but suppressed the worship, of other Canaanite gods. Later, this monolatristic belief cemented into a strict monotheistic belief and worship of Yahweh alone, with the rejection of the existence of all other gods, whether Canaanite or foreign.
(bolding mine)

Setting aside the fact that I was trying to present the Abrahamic enterprise in a “NUTSHELL,” what do you think the term “zeroed-in on” means?

The point is that regardless of what Judaism evolved from, it “zeroed-in” on and concretized into a strict form of monotheism.

Christianity then deviated from that by declaring the Godhead as being a Trinity.

While Islam took hold of the reins and steered the project back towards monotheism.

In which case, I was merely attempting to point out to bahman that if there is no Trinity, then, again, the question Jesus asked of God...

(“My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”)

...was perfectly reasonable.
_______
ok, well than the my answer goes back to the 4 Gospels and the 3 theologies in them. the questioner does not seem to be learned enough to know that his question pertains only to Gospel of Mark, wherein Jesus is far from YHWH - born via nature sex with two regular parents, and adopted by YHWH as his son on the Jordan river (per that gospel's story).

the questioner is not informed enough to know that the quote he refers to (and so the question is poorly thought out on his part) - that Jesus never asked that in the other 3 gospels.

-------------- it would help if the questioner know something about the many works of the bible and was able to parse one work from the others, and so offer a valid question for debate.

but i guess i just hoped for too much.


oh well.
gaffo
Posts: 3488
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: How Jesus could be left alone?

Post by gaffo »

Belinda wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 9:50 am Regarding
(“My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”)
What did whoever originated the utterance mean by it?

What does the utterance mean to you?

Are two different questions.
its a reference to palms 22 i think, go read the work to determine what it means.

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? ... "He trusts in the LORD; let the LORD rescue him. Let him deliver him, since he delights in him." Yet you brought me out of the womb; you made me trust in you even at my mother's breast.
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