Was Judas the first Liberal?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Greatest I am
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Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

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Nick

Yahweh chose Jesus to die even before he made the world.

That was the plan that was to have Jesus killed.

Do you think Yahweh so incompetent that he would somehow screw up the plan to have Jesus, test and fail the old messiah prophesy the way he did?

Do you think Jesus such a poor judge of character that he would have an apostle that would turn him in without Jesus wanting that to happen just as it did?

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DL
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Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by Nick_A »

Greatest I am wrote: Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:28 pm Nick

Yahweh chose Jesus to die even before he made the world.

That was the plan that was to have Jesus killed.

Do you think Yahweh so incompetent that he would somehow screw up the plan to have Jesus, test and fail the old messiah prophesy the way he did?

Do you think Jesus such a poor judge of character that he would have an apostle that would turn him in without Jesus wanting that to happen just as it did?

Regards
DL
This gets very involved. I am not modern Christian but a Platonic Christian influenced by neoplatonism so the source for me isn't the Hebrew God in creation but rather the source Plotinus called the ONE which is beyond the limitations of time and space. The ONE Is while Creation is a process taking place within the ONE.

Sons of God are a level of reality within creation. Jesus was the only one who voluntarily made the descent into the world.

Twelve apostles was not random number but each of them represents a human type. Judas represents the type remaining closed

John 17

20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

What is meant by "one" and complete unity? What is meant by not of the world?
None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
Judas was skilled in the world but limited by it. His type was doomed to destruction.

I am suggesting that the New Testament contains a psychology far more profound than normally understood.
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Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

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Nick_A wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:04 am
Greatest I am wrote: Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:28 pm Nick

Yahweh chose Jesus to die even before he made the world.

That was the plan that was to have Jesus killed.

Do you think Yahweh so incompetent that he would somehow screw up the plan to have Jesus, test and fail the old messiah prophesy the way he did?

Do you think Jesus such a poor judge of character that he would have an apostle that would turn him in without Jesus wanting that to happen just as it did?

Regards
DL
This gets very involved. I am not modern Christian but a Platonic Christian influenced by neoplatonism so the source for me isn't the Hebrew God in creation but rather the source Plotinus called the ONE which is beyond the limitations of time and space. The ONE Is while Creation is a process taking place within the ONE.

Sons of God are a level of reality within creation. Jesus was the only one who voluntarily made the descent into the world.

Twelve apostles was not random number but each of them represents a human type. Judas represents the type remaining closed

John 17

20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

What is meant by "one" and complete unity? What is meant by not of the world?
None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
Judas was skilled in the world but limited by it. His type was doomed to destruction.

I am suggesting that the New Testament contains a psychology far more profound than normally understood.
Socrates and Plato were realists. You do not seem to be, given your literal reading of a proven myth.

I agree with your last but you would not agree with my conclusion.

Given that Jesus is to return and use genocide on us, again, I would say that the psychological and moral lesson is to reject him and his vile genocidal p**** of a father, or himself if you are a Trinitarian.

All that is why I stick to logos and not brain dulling mythos.

Regards
DL
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Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by Nick_A »

GiA

All that is why I stick to logos and not brain dulling mythos.
1940
Now, even though the realms of religion and science in themselves are clearly marked off from each other, nevertheless there exist between the two strong reciprocal relationships and dependencies. Though religion may be that which determines the goal, it has, nevertheless, learned from science, in the broadest sense, what means will contribute to the attainment of the goals it has set up. But science can only be created by those who are thoroughly imbued with the aspiration towards truth and understanding. This source of feeling, however, springs from the sphere of religion. To this there also belongs the faith in the possibility that the regulations valid for the world of existence are rational, that is, comprehensible to reason. I cannot conceive of a genuine scientist without that profound faith. The situation may be expressed by an image: Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.

-- Einstein, Science and Religion, 1940.


Does Einstein make sense to you or is your faith in logos so strong that you deny the reality of the religious feelings non secular myths are designed to arouse?
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Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

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Nick_A wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 7:24 pm GiA

All that is why I stick to logos and not brain dulling mythos.
1940
Now, even though the realms of religion and science in themselves are clearly marked off from each other, nevertheless there exist between the two strong reciprocal relationships and dependencies. Though religion may be that which determines the goal, it has, nevertheless, learned from science, in the broadest sense, what means will contribute to the attainment of the goals it has set up. But science can only be created by those who are thoroughly imbued with the aspiration towards truth and understanding. This source of feeling, however, springs from the sphere of religion. To this there also belongs the faith in the possibility that the regulations valid for the world of existence are rational, that is, comprehensible to reason. I cannot conceive of a genuine scientist without that profound faith. The situation may be expressed by an image: Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.

-- Einstein, Science and Religion, 1940.


Does Einstein make sense to you or is your faith in logos so strong that you deny the reality of the religious feelings non secular myths are designed to arouse?
Einstein is though of more as a atheist than a theist. You might remember that faith as defined today is not the way it was originally defined. It was more of a hope than what it has become today.

Einstein lived when if you lost your religious reputation, you could lose your livelihood and more.

I will agree that religion and science can be applied to things like sin.

Both science and religions say we are born sinners, and both are correct.

That is why if god punished us for following the sin natures he created in us, not that he did, nature did it, then he would be quite unjust in doing so. Right?

Please do not try the free will gambit. It fails, as it does not answer the question of why our natures choose to sin or not.

Regards
DL
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Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by gaffo »

Greatest I am wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:20 pm
gaffo wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:08 pm
Greatest I am wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:04 pm

No.

Jesus wanted to test the messianic prophesy and enlisted his best friend and favored disciple to help him test the prophesy.

Jesus failed it as he did not return to rule.

Regards
DL
interesting perspective, not thought of it that way, but a valid theology i quess.

i have never read the Gospel of Judas, have you?

does it share your view?

curious.
Basically, yes, bur Christians do not accept that view.

I base my views more on the bible and reading of the last super.

It clearly shows, thanks to the tradition of offering a sop to ones best friend and confidant, that Jesus chose one Judas to help Jesus test the messianic myth. Jesus, I guess, did not think the others had the balls to do the hard thing.

Christians seem to prefer to think that Jesus was not a decent judge of character and screwed up on his selection of apostles.

They show their lack of faith.

https://www.studylight.org/dictionaries/hdn/s/sop.html
Jesus, as the host at the Last Supper, would hand this sop, first of all, to Judas, who is supposed to have occupied the place of chief honour at the table

From the dictionary.

Sop
2: a conciliatory or propitiatory bribe, gift, or gesture

Jesus was thanking Judas in advance and choosing him at the same time to do the work required.

Regards
DL
thanks for reply, but curious, have you read Gospel of Judas? and if so what does it say on this matter?

I've not, and am an Athiest - as you know full well from that other forum a decade ago - but i do value knowledge, including said Gospel i've not read.

if you have read it, i welcome your views of that work.

thanks for the reply Mogley.
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Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by Nick_A »

What is sin? Who or what is capable of sin? Can a dog sin? Can any person sin?

Did judas sin when he betrayed Jesus? Is there an explanation of sin that doesn't offend a deity?
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Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by gaffo »

Nick_A wrote: Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:30 pm Judas sacrifice provided the means for the world to learn of Jesus' purpose.
what sacrifice? only matt and luke claimed Judas died. former by self hanging, latter by tripping and spilling his gut out on the potters field.

the other 2 make no such claims, and so we can assume he got paid and lived fat and happy to an old age.
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Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by gaffo »

I'm an Athiest - and know you asked Snake and not me, but have an interest in sin and a knowledge of your Faith and more so Judaism, which your Faith was born from and so would like to answer.

Nick_A wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 5:19 am What is sin?
selfishness.

its that simple, if one is so selfish as to serve the self without regard for others they are evil/sinfull.

if they serve themselves, but note when their self goal impacts others negitively, and do not do their thing (they are not evil (just tempted), they stop and hear their conscience and note thier intended actions on others and do not do the act), or they do thier thing, noting/hearing their conscience and ignoring it, or they have killed their conscience so much that they no longer hear it. - these latter are evil persons.
Nick_A wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 5:19 am Who or what is capable of sin?
only a being with self awarness - so only man, not animals.

Nick_A wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 5:19 am Can a dog sin?
no, a dog cannot sin, but its nature is sinful - a scavenger - due to the original fall of man, infected all the world including some of the animals.

in eden all animals were herbovores, after the fall of man, some become infected with man's sin and so thier character changed to become carnivoires/scavengers.

read Jubalees.


Nick_A wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 5:19 am Can any person sin?

yep.

Nick_A wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 5:19 am Did judas sin when he betrayed Jesus?
the historical record is non existant, so not into condemning a man we do not know of or about.

but assuming the Gospels account of Judas is accurate about the man in question, yes i think Judas betrayed Jesus.
Nick_A wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 5:19 am Is there an explanation of sin that doesn't offend a deity?
not that i know of, but welcome anyone that may know otherwise.
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Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by Nick_A »

Gaffo
selfishness.

its that simple, if one is so selfish as to serve the self without regard for others they are evil/sinfull.
Sin is what opposes your aim. That is why some describe it as "missing the mark" If a person desires to be Christian for example and see they are unable, then they are dominated by sin.

Sin is not what we do which is just a manifestation of what we ARE. The attitude now is that sin is measured by good and bad but in reality it is what we ARE.

So much harm is caused in the world by those suggesting a choice which we don't have. If we understood what sin is rather using it to accuse people, religion would make a lot more sense and we could learn about the human condition.
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Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

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gaffo wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 3:00 am
if you have read it, i welcome your views of that work.

thanks for the reply Mogley.
I have read parts of it but this O.P. is a pure Christian text analysis and story line. I have not included anything Gnostic.

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DL
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Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

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Nick_A wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 5:19 am What is sin? Who or what is capable of sin? Can a dog sin? Can any person sin?

Did judas sin when he betrayed Jesus? Is there an explanation of sin that doesn't offend a deity?
Sin is well defined and much of it is subjective.

I do not think Judas sinned. I see him as the real hero.

Regards
DL
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