The Artificial Creation of Religious Ideas.

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Belinda
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Re: The Artificial Creation of Religious Ideas.

Post by Belinda »

Nick, this is what I was referring to:
But I don't accept the nonduality concept. The creation of our universe is based on the division and unifiction of the elemental three forces creating levels of reality. It seems for you levels of reality are a dream.
(Nick_A
Belinda
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Re: The Artificial Creation of Religious Ideas.

Post by Belinda »

Nick_A wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 2:02 pm
Belinda wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:01 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:39 pm

Any thing born of man made ideas is destructive. Luckily though, man made ideas are a myth.
But surely existence itself *contains not only things with length, breadth and width, but also ideas?

I don't believe in Nick's three levels of existence either, but the fact is Nick's thoughts are as much part of existence itself as any thought or physical thing.

*I forget your name for existence itself. Is it Brahman?
Do you have me confused with someone else? I don't remember referring to "Three levels of existence?" If anything I would say that existence begins with the fourth dimension or time.

I believe the goal of experiencing the horizontal laws of science and the vertical laws of being are complimentary. Together they lead to "understanding? DaM is only concerned with oneness So naturally we must disagree.

My ideas are so disruptive and insulting that I have to be kicked off of secular philosophy sites even though minds much greater than mine are well aware of the complimentary relationship of these laws and how they are essential if philosophy will return to being defined as the love of wisdom.
True, DontAskMe holds to substance monism, while you hold to substance dualism, or maybe you believe in three ontic substances viz God, mind, and physical substance.

The "horizontal laws of science and the vertical laws of being" can't be proved to be extra-mental.Therefore if you believe these laws exist your belief is faith and is not empirical or rational. If by "the horizontal laws of science and the vertical laws of being" you mean what I think you mean I too sort of have faith in those .However I do find you hard to understand as you use eccentric terminology.
Nick_A
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Re: The Artificial Creation of Religious Ideas.

Post by Nick_A »

Belinda
True, DontAskMe holds to substance monism, while you hold to substance dualism, or maybe you believe in three ontic substances viz God, mind, and physical substance.

The "horizontal laws of science and the vertical laws of being" can't be proved to be extra-mental.Therefore if you believe these laws exist your belief is faith and is not empirical or rational. If by "the horizontal laws of science and the vertical laws of being" you mean what I think you mean I too sort of have faith in those .However I do find you hard to understand as you use eccentric terminology.
Understanding begins with acceptance of the three elemental forces Christianity knows as the Trinity and the East knows as the three Gunas.
Everything within Prakriti, the illusionary world, consists of three gunas (qualities). These three qualities are present in all objects in various degrees, one quality is always more present or dominant then the others. The three gunas are Sattva (purity), Rajas (activity) and Tamas (darkness, destruction).


How do the laws of duality become the law of three? This is an essential question for the laws of science and being to resolve. Without a sensible beginning, I cannot see how this question can be resolved. The direction of science is a horizontal line connecting before and after: (duality). The direction of being is the vertical quality of a moment. Our senses experience duality but cannot experience the non-dimensional quality of a moment. I've learned by experience how disruptive and offensive these ideas are to the mind restricted to dualism so unfortunately those seriously concerned by their need for meaning must find private ways of sharing. Modern secularism, like a computer, is restricted to dualism and yet to experience the triune universe: three elemental forces. These people cannot allow themselves to be be intimidated by hostility and realize it is a defensive reaction against an inner experience the human condition has denied us.
Belinda
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Re: The Artificial Creation of Religious Ideas.

Post by Belinda »

Nick_A wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:37 pm Belinda
True, DontAskMe holds to substance monism, while you hold to substance dualism, or maybe you believe in three ontic substances viz God, mind, and physical substance.

The "horizontal laws of science and the vertical laws of being" can't be proved to be extra-mental.Therefore if you believe these laws exist your belief is faith and is not empirical or rational. If by "the horizontal laws of science and the vertical laws of being" you mean what I think you mean I too sort of have faith in those .However I do find you hard to understand as you use eccentric terminology.
Understanding begins with acceptance of the three elemental forces Christianity knows as the Trinity and the East knows as the three Gunas.
Everything within Prakriti, the illusionary world, consists of three gunas (qualities). These three qualities are present in all objects in various degrees, one quality is always more present or dominant then the others. The three gunas are Sattva (purity), Rajas (activity) and Tamas (darkness, destruction).


How do the laws of duality become the law of three? This is an essential question for the laws of science and being to resolve. Without a sensible beginning, I cannot see how this question can be resolved. The direction of science is a horizontal line connecting before and after: (duality). The direction of being is the vertical quality of a moment. Our senses experience duality but cannot experience the non-dimensional quality of a moment. I've learned by experience how disruptive and offensive these ideas are to the mind restricted to dualism so unfortunately those seriously concerned by their need for meaning must find private ways of sharing. Modern secularism, like a computer, is restricted to dualism and yet to experience the triune universe: three elemental forces. These people cannot allow themselves to be be intimidated by hostility and realize it is a defensive reaction against an inner experience the human condition has denied us.
The Trinity of Father , Son, and Holy Spirit is not from the same template as purity, activity, and destruction.

Purity is cognate with God the Father, activity is cognate with God the Son, but destruction is not God the Holy Spirit.

I am what you would may call secular, and I am not "restricted to dualism". I understand and sort of believe the non-duality DAM preaches. I also understand the symbolism of the first two Persons of the Trinity. I have no idea what the Holy Spirit signifies.
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Dontaskme
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Re: The Artificial Creation of Religious Ideas.

Post by Dontaskme »

Belinda wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:01 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:39 pm
Nick_A wrote: Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:03 pm


Decreation according to Simone is the conscious process by which the essence of a phenomenon initiating with Plato's forms returns to its origin. Destruction is the process by which a man made idea becomes what Dostoyevsky described as "pouring from the empty into the void." and becomes nothing and the source of its arising.
Any thing born of man made ideas is destructive. Luckily though, man made ideas are a myth.
But surely existence itself *contains not only things with length, breadth and width, but also ideas?

I don't believe in Nick's three levels of existence either, but the fact is Nick's thoughts are as much part of existence itself as any thought or physical thing.

*I forget your name for existence itself. Is it Brahman?
Brahman is just a label for this immediate nothing and everything impersonal presence, aka no thing, consciousness, awareness.

All known concepts are appearances of THIS

Conceptual stories are made out of the same substance in which they are known, which is this emptiness appearing full.


Thoughts are of course part of existence itself, that's not the myth. The myth is that these 'thought' appearances belong to a 'someone' which doesn't exist except as the 'thought' which is just an appearance known in the form of conceptual dualism. In other words, no thing exists and every thing exists, as oneness aka non-duality.

So even the idea of an 'I' 'me' naming this non-dual reality ''Brahman'' is also just an idea appearing to no thing.

Oneness has no name, because all names are the same oneness appearing as the many. So the named thing is a fictional thing, it has no reality in and of itself.



.
Belinda
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Re: The Artificial Creation of Religious Ideas.

Post by Belinda »

Dontaskme wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:45 am
Belinda wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:01 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:39 pm

Any thing born of man made ideas is destructive. Luckily though, man made ideas are a myth.
But surely existence itself *contains not only things with length, breadth and width, but also ideas?

I don't believe in Nick's three levels of existence either, but the fact is Nick's thoughts are as much part of existence itself as any thought or physical thing.

*I forget your name for existence itself. Is it Brahman?
Brahman is just a label for this immediate nothing and everything impersonal presence, aka no thing, consciousness, awareness.

All known concepts are appearances of THIS

Conceptual stories are made out of the same substance in which they are known, which is this emptiness appearing full.


Thoughts are of course part of existence itself, that's not the myth. The myth is that these 'thought' appearances belong to a 'someone' which doesn't exist except as the 'thought' which is just an appearance known in the form of conceptual dualism. In other words, no thing exists and every thing exists, as oneness aka non-duality.

So even the idea of an 'I' 'me' naming this non-dual reality ''Brahman'' is also just an idea appearing to no thing.

Oneness has no name, because all names are the same oneness appearing as the many. So the named thing is a fictional thing, it has no reality in and of itself.



.
Thanks I understand
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Dontaskme
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Re: The Artificial Creation of Religious Ideas.

Post by Dontaskme »

Belinda wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:21 pm
Thanks I understand
Yes, it's a very simple idea to understand, and yet can appear to be very complicated, because for the sense of self sees itself as a separate individual which is real enough, yet is an illusion. So it's like how can what is real enough, also be an illusion.

Understanding there is no purpose at all in life, and that the only purpose is for the 'me' the illusory sense of individual self that invents everything that we "know" but the reality is that nothing exist without the so called person and their story.

I mean can you even imagine this planet without the humans? No god no heaven no hell no good no bad, perfect, everything is what it is ( apparently) because there is here only energy coming from nowhere and going back to nowhere.

.
Belinda
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Re: The Artificial Creation of Religious Ideas.

Post by Belinda »

Dontaskme wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:28 pm
Belinda wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:21 pm
Thanks I understand
Yes, it's a very simple idea to understand, and yet can appear to be very complicated, because for the sense of self sees itself as a separate individual which is real enough, yet is an illusion. So it's like how can what is real enough, also be an illusion.

Understanding there is no purpose at all in life, and that the only purpose is for the 'me' the illusory sense of individual self that invents everything that we "know" but the reality is that nothing exist without the so called person and their story.

I mean can you even imagine this planet without the humans? No god no heaven no hell no good no bad, perfect, everything is what it is ( apparently) because there is here only energy coming from nowhere and going back to nowhere.

.
Except for your last paragraph,

David Hume himself would agree. Hume said search as much as you can you will never find the self. Because the self does not exist. The individual is a bundle of attributes among which no self can be found.
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Dontaskme
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Re: The Artificial Creation of Religious Ideas.

Post by Dontaskme »

Belinda wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:34 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:28 pm
Belinda wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:21 pm
Thanks I understand
Yes, it's a very simple idea to understand, and yet can appear to be very complicated, because for the sense of self sees itself as a separate individual which is real enough, yet is an illusion. So it's like how can what is real enough, also be an illusion.

Understanding there is no purpose at all in life, and that the only purpose is for the 'me' the illusory sense of individual self that invents everything that we "know" but the reality is that nothing exist without the so called person and their story.

I mean can you even imagine this planet without the humans? No god no heaven no hell no good no bad, perfect, everything is what it is ( apparently) because there is here only energy coming from nowhere and going back to nowhere.

.
Except for your last paragraph,

David Hume himself would agree. Hume said search as much as you can you will never find the self. Because the self does not exist. The individual is a bundle of attributes among which no self can be found.
Well the human is also part of the story, so we are talking of what cannot be spoken about, or expressed in words, even though every word is it's expression.
In seeking self the 'apparent seeking self' finds nothing and so comes to an end and is seen quite clearly the seeker is no more and never was.

All Knowledge is an expression of THIS..but don't ask me of what is this an expression of...

.
Nick_A
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Re: The Artificial Creation of Religious Ideas.

Post by Nick_A »

DAM wrote
Understanding there is no purpose at all in life, and that the only purpose is for the 'me' the illusory sense of individual self that invents everything that we "know" but the reality is that nothing exist without the so called person and their story.
The ancient question. According to DAM life has no objective meaning while Plato defines Man as - "a being in search of meaning""

Is there a way a person can reconcile these opposing conclusions? Great men of the past were crucified or drank the hemlock for opening minds to the ability to reconcile this question of meaning: objective meaning or pragmatic meaning? Ordinary people were ridiculed, condemned since the answer appears obvious to whichever side of the question a person is on.

Humanity as a whole is not yet ready to resolve this ancient question Yet a minority of individuals are ready to reason in a new way. Hopefully they find each other.
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