Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:05 pm
seeds wrote: ↑Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:18 pm
As I have stated many times in this forum, it is time for a new “material/spiritual paradigm” to replace the nonsense of the old paradigm.
I agree. I am not sure, however, that most religions and their followers can be free enough from their stories and the payoffs of those stories -- to be clear and present enough to create/understand a new/different paradigm -- unless there is some kind of great undoing (and resulting awakening) to help them let go of what they're locked onto.
If you do happen to find an actual way to get people to 'let go' and thus become OPEN, ENOUGH, in order for them to be able to SEE and learn
what IS actually True, Right, and Correct in Life, then please be sure to let me know.
If you ever happen to actually 'let go' of your own beliefs, which you are HOLDING ONTO dearly, then also please let me know what 'it' was, which actually triggered you into this 'letting go'.
Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:05 pm
seeds wrote: ↑Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:18 pm
I am sure that you already know this, but other than in some random cases, I don’t think it’s so much that the adherents of any particular religion “choose” what they believe.
No, for it seems obvious that most humans are the victims of the result of that which is foisted upon them due to the incessant indoctrination (brainwashing) they receive from the moment of birth – all of which is dependent upon when and where they awakened into life on the surface of this flying orb.
I can imagine it seems less escapable for those who live in situations of limited options and exposure. But many of us can and do think for ourselves much more freely (and we evolve in many ways over the course of our lifetimes). I admit that I've been shocked by the senseless zombie-like responses given by some people interviewed at Trump rallies -- because it is as if they have gleefully handed themselves over to a certain mindset without critically questioning/assessing anything for themselves. I guess this is how, in human history, armies of people have been able to follow crazed leadership/platforms down inexplicable paths. I thought we were beyond such things. Apparently not! Good to know. Group mentality seems very intoxicating.
Human beings are that far down the, seemingly, "inexplicable" path of 'chasing after money' as though money was some sort of 'need' in Life. The actual explanation of WHY ALL adult human beings chase after money instead of doing what is actually Right in Life is easy and simple to explain and understand. But, sadly, most adult human beings do NOT even recognize that they are on the WRONG path and do NOT accept that they are being LED down the WRONG path in Life. Most adult human beings do NOT accept that they are NOT actually thinking for themselves at all, and that they are just thinking the way that they do based solely upon their own, out of their own control, past experiences.
People are the sum of, or the result of, their own past experiences. They are NOT a Truly FREE thinking individual.
Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:05 pm
seeds wrote: ↑Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:18 pmFurthermore, even though you and I are being highly critical and scornful of the absurdity of what I tried to point out in the OP, we must also try to be more understanding of how difficult it is for the average person to break-free and rise above their initial “brainwashing.”
I think I understand to a certain degree: I remember the turmoil I went through myself when realizing that everything I had been so sure of, was wrong or untrue.
Well this explains A LOT.
Why were you previously SO SURE OF things? Were you being lied to, or for some other reason?
Did you lose trust in that thing that was making you SO SURE OF things?
Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:05 pm
I remember the utter terror! I remember the existential threat to my ego and identity. But I simply could not "unsee" or go back... as much as I wanted to... when I realized there was a much larger "universe" of thought/potential than what I'd believed there was. I realized that my ego and my belief had been barriers to greater truth, so I needed to tell them to take a back seat -- and I became hungry for more and new information to learn about a broader landscape. I discovered a BOUNTY of information all around -- I only needed to be open to notice it. People on this forum have an opportunity to question things for themselves too. Some egos appear willing to be insane to insist on having the "highest" answers, which they suggest/claim that only they have.
And, even 'you', yourself, are making you have the 'highest' answers, which you appear to be suggesting/claiming that you have.
The hypocritical nature of what you, yourself, want to express and teach here is strikingly obvious.
Your own current BELIEFS is what is STOPPING you, yourself, to being more OPEN so that you, yourself, can broaden your own learning.
Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:05 pm
seeds wrote: ↑Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:18 pm
And lastly, Lacewing, if we simply approach this as if we were some kind of demolition crew armed with wrecking balls and sawzalls to destroy all of the old religious edifices that billions of humans desperately rely on for hope and comfort; a destruction carried out without any plans or blueprints in hand for the erection of something new and more logical to replace those edifices...
...then we are no better than the angry and snarling hardcore atheists who only offer pure and empty nihilism in the wake of their attacks on religion.
Well, I totally appreciate what you're saying. I think it's important to note that I would not use a wrecking ball in person (unless it was really applicable)! But, here, we're on a forum (a stage) where the hardest of the hardcore come to preach their particular manic notions with full blinding and fanatic headgear on.
And, you are EXACTLY one of them.
You are also so full 'head on' in this regard you will OPPOSE absolutely ANY thing which you regard opposes your own views or is even slightly in contrast with your own views and beliefs. You are so narrow and so closed on your own view of 'broadening one's views' that you instantly dismiss absolutely ANY thing, which you interpret as being a one-sided view. You are so CLOSED that what you SEE when people just express their points of views as them saying this is the ONLY WAY. You do NOT remain OPEN to LOOK AT and SEE what is actually being Truly said, and MEANT.
You do EXACTLY what you accuse "others" of.
Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:05 pm
Anything I say to them is what I would say to myself if I were doing and saying what they are doing and saying.
LOL Well this OBVIOUSLY CLEARLY NOT what you do at all.
Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:05 pm
Whatever hope and comfort they might actually need can be supported in so many places -- this forum is not one of them. So if people are HERE, I'm guessing they yearn for more challenge and truth, even if they put on a terrific show of resisting it. That offers a fantastic opportunity for others to express without restraint our own creative approach or onslaught -- and mine varies according to the person and the content/context. Aside from the entertainment value, it is truly my hope for people to consider/realize a freer and broader scope/universe for themselves (if they'd like that), even if they don't want to admit to it here.
Do you also 'hope' for 'you', yourself, to consider/realize a freer and broader scope/universe? Or, is that only for the "others"?
From my perspective, you do appear to be one of the MOST CLOSED and LESS FREER one's here, but contradictory you do NOT see NOR BELIEVE this at all.
Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:05 pm
Personally, I would be wary of plans or blueprints for a new paradigm, because those would likely have more unevolved agendas built on unevolved beliefs (if we're really not beyond doing that yet, in general).
And, your own unevolved BELIEFS are NOT allowing you to SEE any other than an unevolved agenda BEFORE you even begin to LOOK AT a new idea/plan.
You have been so "brainwashed" to BELIEVE things "WILL HAPPEN" or "ARE OCCURRING" and so are one of the "victims" as mentioned earlier in this thread, that you have become SO CLOSED and thus will NOT OPEN up to 'new' things. Because of your own past traumatic experiences you have lost trust, and thus are the way that you ARE now.
Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:05 pm
Clarity comes, rather (I think), from getting the noise/stories out of the way.
This implies and infers that 'you' are able to KNOW and distinguish between the ONE and ONLY Truth, from everything else.
So called "getting the noise/stories out of the way" means that you actually BELIEVE you can tell the difference.
All you are doing is just doing what ALL other adult human beings do, which is; To BELIEVE their own story/view is the True and Right one and all the other ones are just "noise" or "false or wrong stories".
Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:05 pm
In other words, it's probably not about what we can add on or switch to, but about what we can lift off of ourselves. Stories are like blankets piled on top of us. My beliefs are (more often, these days) sitting in the back seat with my ego (because I prefer being present, open, and flexible), although they both (beliefs and ego) take turns trying to jump into the front seat to drive.
And from the way you frequently write here, beliefs and ego are at the helm and steering quite A LOT.
Although 'you' would LOVE to BELIEVE the exact opposite is true, from my perspective, it is actually NOT true.
To me, the one who 'you' are Truly fooling and deceiving in regards to being present, open, and flexible is your own 'self'.
When 'you' discover and/or learn who and what is the 'you' and who and what is the 'self' in the phrase "your own self", then 'you' will SEE far MORE CLEARLY just how 'you' have been and were actually being fooled and deceived.
Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:05 pm
But it doesn't take long to see how that drives me into a ditch.
Being freer of stuff piled onto me lightens everything up.
Do NOT assume NOR believe absolutely ANY thing, then 'you' have absolutely NOTHING on top of 'you'. Without assumptions and beliefs 'you' are literally weightlessness and as OPEN and FREE as you can possibly be. Without assumptions nor beliefs then you literally NOT limited by absolutely ANY thing.
Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:05 pm
Everyone is free to think what makes sense to them, based on their surrounding influences/circumstances or not. Some may be afraid of having/acknowledging such freedom, and that's okay. But then they may have to work hard to maintain their limitations, and be less fulfilled by doing so. Maybe freedom from certain restrictions/distortions of belief and ego is not only a powerful tool/capability for humankind's and our own evolvement, but maybe it allows for more conscious creation and play while we're here? And how glorious might that be? If we can be loving and brave enough to embrace/accept such freedom and potential.
Just IMAGINE how FREE you would actually BE if you did not have to look for and find things to suit in with and fit in your already held assumptions and beliefs that you are holding and desperately 'trying to' maintain? If you were to 'let go' FULLY of ALL of those assumptions AND beliefs completely and wholeheartedly forever more, then IMAGINE how much MORE FREE you would be able to Truly BROADEN that limited horizon of yours, which you have now?
If you were to just 'let go' completely, then just IMAGINE how you might actually be able to SEE and MAKE SENSE OF the True PURPOSE of ALL religion/s and of the True messages, which they are FREELY expressing out.
Lacewing wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:05 pm
Thanks for the thoughtful discussion. I would like to hear more of your thoughts.