Here’s a question for anyone who believes in the existence of HELL:

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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gaffo
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Re: Here’s a question for anyone who believes in the existence of HELL:

Post by gaffo » Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:36 am

seeds wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:51 am
seeds wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:27 pm
...be willing to relinquish your eternal life of bliss in heaven if - by reason of some kind of divine law - it would extricate a loved one from an eternity of torture in hell?

In other words,...

(at least in terms of this hypothetical situation)

...if you understood that your sacrifice would forever erase you and your loved one from the “Book Of Life,” would you be willing to do that if it would end the eternal suffering of someone dear to you?
Dubious wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:33 am
Not at all and not in the least. Assuming god to be a just judge, anyone who by ITS criteria have committed the kind of crimes which deserve hell is not anything one would love in the first place whether it be family, friend or stranger. Screw 'em, let them burn!

That would be my conclusion IF I believed in hell.
Sorry, Dubious, but reason and rationality have no place in this scenario.

Because we are talking about a situation where according to Christian dogma, the one and only crime that one can commit that will guarantee a ticket to Hell is the failure before you physically die...

(be it through intentional rejection, or purely circumstantial - as in dying as an infant, for example)

...to be run-through the ritualistic process where Jesus can wipe-clean your inherited stain of “original sin.” Otherwise, you’re a goner.
not quite, if you are born before Jesus died and went to Hell, he saved you - for we are told he decended to Hell the 3 days he was dead, and preached to those in Hell, and those that beleived in Him were granted Heaven.

Peter 2.

----------

now if you died on the 4th day of Christ's Chrucifiction, up to right now - and are a sinner and reject Christ - you are fucked.

for Christ only saved those that repented in Hell that resided there prior to his assumption into Heaven.

----------

it sucks, its a "get out of Hell free" card, but you have to have died before Christ's 3-day of death - in order to hear him and him save you from Hell.

----------

I welcome a Peter 3 addendum that allows the rest of us reprobates in Hell to hear Christ and accept and be saved, but until there is a Peter 3 grafted into the Cannon, I'm fucked.

born 2000 yrs too late for salvation from Hell. and so must burn forever.

gaffo
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Re: Here’s a question for anyone who believes in the existence of HELL:

Post by gaffo » Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:44 am

seeds wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:51 am

Because the real issue comes in the form of how ridiculous it is to think that the occupants of Heaven,...

(allegedly a place of supreme love and beauty)

...would function in such a dark and demented state of mind as to accept, not only the existence of the never-ending torture and suffering of sentient beings, but a torturing of their very own earthly friends, relatives, and loved ones.

and that is why Peter 2 was written, the congregation was thinking about their moms/dads/grandparents. thinking "They died and went to Hell before our Christ showed himself to us".

so the author addressed it by giving them a "get out of Hell" card, "our Christ went down into Hell to tell them about himself, so they can except him from there and be saved".

of course the rest of us - folks born after Peter 2 was written (120 AD) - ar fucked, for there is not Peter 3 nor other work that says Christ when down to Hell a second time to save those born after him!

- so i burn forever, having been born too late for Salvation from Hell ;-/

oh well.


---------------

if you think about this, what this means is that all folks that lived from say a million yrs ago up to 2000 yrs ago - heard the Gospel from Hell and were offered Savation if they Beleived in Him. and so go to Heaven. After the 3rd day, Hell was "walled off forever" and non that died after Christ's 3-day dead shall ever hear the Gospel from Hell nor be granted salvation. and so Christ became in effect an agent of eternal damnation for all those that had the missfortune have died after Christ's ressurection.

-----------

it is also important to note Catholic Doctrine - (I do not know Protestent - welcome education on) - per Catholic, all persons that never heard the Word (this includes babies) go to "Limbo" - limbo eventually leads to salvation by default.

Catacizm states that those that never heard the word are not damned to hell.

and so via logic, that means the very existance of Christ damns more folks to Hell than if he never showed himself on Earth to be Chrusified.

so Christ is litterally an agent of death and damnation for more folks than if he never showed himself in the first place.

just sayin.

gaffo
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Re: Here’s a question for anyone who believes in the existence of HELL:

Post by gaffo » Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:05 am

Lacewing wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:23 pm
If there were a great devil, he would surely be the creator of religion: a perfect means for distorting and derailing people from seeing and honoring the divine nature accessible and reflected throughout all.
yep, and to this day i know of only one Christian that takes his time to pray for the salvation of the most lost and depraved.

Satan himself.

all other Christians assume their God's love to too limited to save Belial and so like their view of thier limited God's "love" do not bother to pray for the Devil!

pure hypocrisy.

gaffo
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Re: Here’s a question for anyone who believes in the existence of HELL:

Post by gaffo » Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:14 am

seeds wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:18 pm

...then we are no better than the angry and snarling hardcore atheists who only offer pure and empty nihilism in the wake of their attacks on religion.
_______
I loathe those types of Athiests (most of them are lapse Thiests - mad at daddy for being raised fundie - and go back to their Christianity eventually.

those types of "atheists" are thugs, and a minority (just so damn load make it seem like they are the majority).

most Athiests are like me - silent majority, never born in a faith of any kind - our parents were Secular Humanists and most of us have no religious knowledge or interest.

i only have both interest and knowledge do to whatever reasons i'm not sure of - but fully after of grew up and moved out on my own decades ago.

BTW if find value in some of the OT the NT and the Koran - and little value in many parts of all those works - since i see not need to make all of it one whole good, i'm fine with pissing on Levitcus, while valuing Amos/etc.

Dubious
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Re: Here’s a question for anyone who believes in the existence of HELL:

Post by Dubious » Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:24 am

gaffo wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:24 am

There is the bigger picture per Religionists (they affirm eternal life yes?) that means no-one dies (their soul never dies).

and so lets look at this logically - assuming we all are immoral (our souls are) - per Religionist view.

so in fact if we are place here on this planet for a VERY short time - 80 yrs or 8 yrs (compared to eternity as an immortal soul after corporial death via the short span).

then all actions here on earth are 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000001 percent of the timeline of the immortal soul.
No need to worry about soul. It exists only in music! That's soul enough for me.

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Lacewing
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Re: Here’s a question for anyone who believes in the existence of HELL:

Post by Lacewing » Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:46 pm

seeds wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:00 am
Doesn’t it seem as though we may be in the midst (or at least at the beginning stages) of a “great undoing” at this very moment?
Yes, it does... at least on a physical/material level. For some, that will probably bring about spiritual or mental shifts. For others, there could be great resistance and deeper entrenchment.
seeds wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:00 am
However, instead of an “undoing,” I like to think of it as being a transitioning from one paradigm bubble to another. And until we completely pass-through the “blurry film,” so to speak, of the new bubble, confusion and chaos will reign.
Sounds good. I hope it is a quick birthing! :)
seeds wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:18 pm
The atheists knock religion, but the problem is that most humans have a conscience that oftentimes needs a means by which genuine (and painful) feelings of guilt (for whatever reason) can be softened or eliminated. In which case, religions (even though flawed and founded upon dubious origins) clearly provide that vital service to humans. Not to mention the comfort and solace that religious ideas provide for the mourners at funerals, and for the sick.
True. I think that sources of comfort and reassurance could have been established, however, without all the controlling story-telling that is meant to intoxicate people in religion -- stories that are dark, twisted, and divisive, as well as absurd. Those are not good elements for people to fill their heads with, and perpetuate across humankind. So I think religion needs a major reckoning, because it is a major force of darkness in our world, despite any good intentions.
seeds wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:18 pm
...the near impossibility of reasoning with groups of humans who walk through life in an even deeper state of somnambulism than the rest of us.

I mean, if these people aren’t even awake enough to recognize a glaringly obvious wolf in sheep’s clothing,...

(a wolf that doesn’t even bother to wear the head part of his sheep costume :D )

...then any attempt to awaken them into higher levels of metaphysical understanding is a fool’s errand.
Many of his supporters are Christians -- who may be used to swallowing absurdity and worshipping idols, as part of their particular "spiritual" practice. Yes, he doesn't even conceal what he really is, and they choose an illusion that glorifies him. It's astounding, really. And horrifying to witness such potential in humans.
seeds wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:18 pm
(Though we must keep trying in the hope that a “seed” of information may one day sprout and blossom.)
I think there's a lot going on energetically too. We can outwardly nurture the seeds of greater growth... while the energy of our authentic intentions rolls across the landscape like a tide. With enough momentum throughout the human network, perhaps it can initiate an automatic "upgrade" of our collective programming.

Encouraging clarity of intoxicated minds is next to impossible. A full system reboot is likely needed to wipe out the mental viruses/malware and spam. What that looks like, I don't know. Except it doesn't seem realistic to retain or cling to any major sources of toxicity that could quickly re-infect the new system.
seeds wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:18 pm
...felt like a window had opened between the material world and the spiritual world – a window that (in time) allowed me to peer into what (I think) awaits us on the other side of the proverbial “veil.”

(Btw, I’m not so lost in my beliefs that I am beyond realizing that I could be wrong.)
Nice. :) I can imagine -- that in such a vast Universe of potential -- there could be many spiritual vistas and awakenings to glimpse and experience, perhaps on and on and on. Our physical reality/experience may be like a leaf blowing in the wind. It seems that we humans often identify two states/places: here and beyond. As if "beyond here" is a solid/definite place too, that we could know/experience as vividly as our current experience feels. I am not sure that makes sense for a vast Universe/network of life and energy. If nothing is truly solid (as science shows), why do we continue to apply solid ideas to everything?

By the way, my stream of thoughts are not intended as a challenge to what you said, rather they are just a stream of inspired/thoughtful contemplation, which you inspire in me through the things you say -- and I appreciate and enjoy that very much, thank you!
seeds wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:18 pm
(i.e., new spiritual concepts that, hopefully, are much more logical than the ones being replaced)

...are still going to be something that humans continue to rely on.

And even though they (the new concepts) may still fall short of the ultimate truth, as long as they can replace the old paradigm nonsense of Hells, and demons, and realms of eternal torture that the occupants of Heaven are perfectly fine with, then it will be a step in the right direction.
Agreed. As Einstein said: "Problems cannot be solved with the same mind set that created them."

Our thinking must truly shift such that the toxic and distorted systems and methods we've used are no longer applicable for what we want to accomplish. I do not think we can just change a few things and gradually migrate in a clearer direction. Alcoholics can't drink just a little. We have to operate from a distinctly new place... and clearer mental space. It seems that nature's elements may help us make such a giant transformation, if we survive the process.
seeds wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:18 pm
Lacewing wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:05 pm
Thanks for the thoughtful discussion. I would like to hear more of your thoughts.
Right back at ya! And be careful what you ask for! :D
:lol: Yep, I've had that terrifying lesson before! I'm not scared now, though, so feel free to impart to me whatever you feel inspired to.

Age
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Re: Here’s a question for anyone who believes in the existence of HELL:

Post by Age » Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:22 am

seeds wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:25 pm
_______

In response to gaffo, Age, and DAM...

According to Wiki:
Wiki wrote: In religion and folklore, Hell is an afterlife location in which evil souls are subjected to punitive suffering, often torture as eternal punishment after death. Religions with a linear divine history often depict hells as eternal destinations, the biggest examples of which are Christianity and Islam...
(Note that according to religious dogma, a hell-bound “evil soul” is anyone who rejects Jesus as their personal savior, or rejects the teachings of Islam.)

The OP question was directed at the Christians and Muslims (or anyone else) who ACTUALLY BELIEVE in the existence of Heaven and Hell as they are often depicted in the ancillary lore of their corresponding religions.
But WHERE does this supposedly happen? This is the question.

If there is only One place/Life/Existence/Universe, then heaven or hell MUST exist HERE.
seeds wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:25 pm
The OP sets-up a very simple premise that asks what one who was lucky enough (pious enough) to make it into Heaven would do if they were given the option of sacrificing their eternal life in Heaven in order to save a loved one who is suffering in Hell.
If you do NOT change, then ALL of your loved ones WILL suffer HERE in hell, for eternity. If you love your children, then ALL of them are the ones who live HERE.

The only, so called, "sacrifice" you 'need' to do in order so that your children can and WILL live in heaven is just be OPEN and Honest about ALL of the WRONG you do, and just be Truly serious about changing, for the better. If you call that a "sacrifice", then so be it. But that is ALL you really 'need' to do so that your loved ones/your children can and WILL live forever more in Heaven.
seeds wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:25 pm
Unfortunately, all of the contributors to the thread thus far appear to be neither Christians nor Muslims nor anyone who believes in the existence of Hell, and are therefore sidetracking the purpose of the OP with their comments.
I explained WHERE hell, and Heaven, actually IS, from my perspective. I think explaining WHERE the existence of hell actually IS, goes beyond just believing in the existence of hell.
seeds wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:25 pm
Now if someone wants to create a thread where we can all debate the absurdity of Hell, then I will be at the top of the list of those who will offer arguments as to just how ridiculous the idea of Hell actually is, as is depicted in one of my personal illustrations below...

Image

And just in case the dialogue in the caption bubbles is too small or blurry to read, then here is a rundown of what is being said:

Little girl: “Please help me daddy, they’re hurting me! Please daddy, help me!”

Dad: “Sorry punkin, but daddy’s in heaven now and heaven wouldn’t be ‘perfect’ if I had to worry about you....Besides, we told you what would happen if you didn’t believe in ‘our’ concept of God....By the way, how’s your grandma doing?...Oh never mind, why should I care?...I’m in heaven.”

God: “After she has suffered a billion years of unspeakable burning agony, she’ll be sorry she ignored me....I will then continue her torture throughout all eternity....Does anyone doubt the fairness of my judgment?”

1st angel: “Your fairness and mercy are without equal.”

2nd angel: “In the name of love she’s getting exactly what she deserves.”

And, of course, beneath the daughter and the demons is not Satan, but God; the creator and sustainer of all realities - including Hell.

And yes, all of that is utterly ridiculous, yet it is precisely what all of the hellfire and brimstone preachers of Christianity and Islam must accept as being possible if Heaven and Hell are real destinations of the human soul.

Clearly, I am still waiting for a Hell-believing Christian or Muslim to demonstrate the courage of their convictions and chime-in on this subject.
_______
I will do MORE than just "chime in". I will give the actual EVIDENCE and PROOF of HOW ALL of 'that' what "christians" AND "muslims" have misinterpreted but what is ACTUALLY MEANT.

As you already KNOW I neither believe nor disbelieve ANY thing, so I do NOT believe in hell. But I can explain WHY what you wrote is OBVIOUSLY 'utterly ridiculous' AND explain what IS 'actually True, Real, and Correct'. But, if you continue to HOLD that OBVIOUSLY 'utterly absurd and ridiculous' view and idea of hell and those two religions, then you will NEVER understand what I have to say and can explain.

If, however, you Truly WANT to DISCOVER and LEARN what the True idea of 'hell' IS and how this idea fits with ALL religions in a Truly logical, reasonable, and sensible way, then let us proceed.

Your interpretation of God, heaven, and hell is just as absurd and is as just as 'utterly ridiculous' as the interpretation that "christians" and "muslims" have. When 'you' and 'them' discover and LEARN what 'God', 'heaven', and 'hell' Truly IS, then ALL OF THIS makes PERFECT SENSE.

Age
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Re: Here’s a question for anyone who believes in the existence of HELL:

Post by Age » Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:32 am

henry quirk wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:26 pm
Just out of curiosity, though, name a few “sins” that you think warrant a stint in Hell.

There's only one, as I reckon it: deprivin' a person of his life, liberty, or property without just cause.
When you use the word 'property', what are you referring to actually?

Will you list some of the 'property' that you are referencing here?

Also, is, for example, it a "sin" to deprive a person of the land, which they say they own?


henry quirk wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:26 pm
And while you’re at it, how about describing what you imagine the ontological conditions of Hell might be?

Well, my religion has no hell, but, if I were to drum one up, it would probably be the metaphysical version of the stockade.

Age
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Re: Here’s a question for anyone who believes in the existence of HELL:

Post by Age » Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:40 am

seeds wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:51 am
seeds wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:27 pm
...be willing to relinquish your eternal life of bliss in heaven if - by reason of some kind of divine law - it would extricate a loved one from an eternity of torture in hell?

In other words,...

(at least in terms of this hypothetical situation)

...if you understood that your sacrifice would forever erase you and your loved one from the “Book Of Life,” would you be willing to do that if it would end the eternal suffering of someone dear to you?
Dubious wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:33 am
Not at all and not in the least. Assuming god to be a just judge, anyone who by ITS criteria have committed the kind of crimes which deserve hell is not anything one would love in the first place whether it be family, friend or stranger. Screw 'em, let them burn!

That would be my conclusion IF I believed in hell.
Sorry, Dubious, but reason and rationality have no place in this scenario.

Because we are talking about a situation where according to Christian dogma, the one and only crime that one can commit that will guarantee a ticket to Hell is the failure before you physically die...

(be it through intentional rejection, or purely circumstantial - as in dying as an infant, for example)

...to be run-through the ritualistic process where Jesus can wipe-clean your inherited stain of “original sin.” Otherwise, you’re a goner.

Besides, I can think of lots of Hell-worthy crimes* carried out on our behalf by humans (military personnel) that you and I not only support via our tax dollars, but also share in the bounty of what they plunder.

*(For example, the explosive dismembering of the bodies of children by drone missiles and “smart” bombs.)

And the point is, don’t be so quick to absolve yourself of complicity in offenses that are worthy of Hell.

However, all of that is beside the point of this thread.

Because the real issue comes in the form of how ridiculous it is to think that the occupants of Heaven,...

(allegedly a place of supreme love and beauty)

...would function in such a dark and demented state of mind as to accept, not only the existence of the never-ending torture and suffering of sentient beings, but a torturing of their very own earthly friends, relatives, and loved ones.

Who, exactly, are the real demons in this bizarre theological concoction?

( :D Please forgive the rant, because I know we are just discussing mythological fantasy here, but it is fantasy that some humans actually believe to be true.)
_______
And you are one of those who is MISSING THE WHOLE POINT here. Do you even KNOW what the word 'sin' ACTUALLY REFERS to, which makes SENSE with EVERY thing else.

You will NEVER understand what 'hell' actually IS while you BELIEVE that this is just a "mythological fantasy".

Age
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Re: Here’s a question for anyone who believes in the existence of HELL:

Post by Age » Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:51 am

seeds wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:51 am
Because the real issue comes in the form of how ridiculous it is to think that the occupants of Heaven,...

(allegedly a place of supreme love and beauty)

...would function in such a dark and demented state of mind as to accept, not only the existence of the never-ending torture and suffering of sentient beings, but a torturing of their very own earthly friends, relatives, and loved ones.

Who, exactly, are the real demons in this bizarre theological concoction?

( :D Please forgive the rant, because I know we are just discussing mythological fantasy here, but it is fantasy that some humans actually believe to be true.)
_______
Who, exactly, are the real demons in this bizarre REAL Life, is those adult human beings who BLIND themselves and thus ALLOW human beings to live in 'hell-like conditions. Who those adult human beings actually ARE is ALL of 'you' adults, in the days of when this is written.

ALL of 'you' CAUSE the 'hell-like' conditions that children are living and suffering in 'now'.

How ALL of 'you' can sit there on your screens reading this in your extremely greedy and smug ways, thinking you KNOW things, while causing CHILDREN to SUFFER and ALLOWING them to die just because you do NOT want to share your absurd monetary wealth.

You are the ones living in relatively 'heaven-like' conditions while CHILDREN starve to DEATH around you, from 'needing' just a little bit of food, which in Honestly would be amount far less than what the majority of you would throw away as RUBBISH.

In fact, the more you are saying here and I am SEEING the more ALL of these "religious" stories make far MORE, literal, SENSE.

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Lacewing
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Re: Here’s a question for anyone who believes in the existence of HELL:

Post by Lacewing » Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:14 am

Age wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:51 am
How ALL of 'you' can sit there on your screens reading this in your extremely greedy and smug ways, thinking you KNOW things, while causing CHILDREN to SUFFER and ALLOWING them to die just because you do NOT want to share your absurd monetary wealth.
You sound like a very hateful person, Age. You are making claims about people you don't even know, while projecting what appears to be your own smugness onto others. Why are you focused on a website like this if you think there is much work to be done elsewhere, and that people here are doing nothing? Perhaps you should get over yourself. Your claims are not believable... in the time that this is written, nor any time previously.

Age
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Re: Here’s a question for anyone who believes in the existence of HELL:

Post by Age » Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:25 am

Lacewing wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:23 pm
seeds wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:51 am
Because the real issue comes in the form of how ridiculous it is to think that the occupants of Heaven,...

(allegedly a place of supreme love and beauty)

...would function in such a dark and demented state of mind as to accept, not only the existence of the never-ending torture and suffering of sentient beings, but a torturing of their very own earthly friends, relatives, and loved ones.

Who, exactly, are the real demons in this bizarre theological concoction?
Yes, exactly!

Religion CREATES EVIL which is projected onto others.
And WHO created 'religion/s"?

'You', adult human beings, that is WHO.

How do you define the word 'EVIL' here?

Also, are you 'projecting' here yourself?

The TRUE PURPOSE of 'religion' makes PERFECT SENSE. That is; If ANY one wants to LOOK INTO, and delve deep enough, into ALL OF THIS.
Lacewing wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:23 pm
This serves to falsely glorify the religious as being above that which is made-up.
This is just YOUR 'interpretation', based solely upon YOUR OWN 'past experiences'.
Lacewing wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:23 pm
It's so incredibly absurd and transparent, I don't know how anyone can still be believing/repeating such things.
This is because you are NOT YET OPEN ENOUGH to discover and learn HOW and WHY ALL human beings become the way they are and say the things they say and believe.
Lacewing wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:23 pm
To threaten others with made-up horror is not just foolish, it's hateful.
If you were taught it that way and only see it that way, then OF COURSE it would be "hateful". And, when you are taught AND learn the RIGHT WAY, then you will SEE things differently. But this will NEVER HAPPEN also. This is because you BELIEVE WHOLEHEARTEDLY that there is NO 'right way'.
Lacewing wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:23 pm
Ignorance and hate go hand-in-hand it seems.
YOUR VERY OWN ignorance and hatred of what 'religion' Truly MEANS and REFERENCES is a PRIME EXAMPLE of just HOW 'ignorance and hate' do go hand-in-hand.
Lacewing wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:23 pm
You've effectively pointed out, Seeds, how twisted it is for anyone to relish going to a Heaven when their loved ones are burning forever in Hell.
1. 'You' the readers of this, in the days of when this is being written, are in relative 'heaven' compared to "others" who are SUFFERING in 'hell'. Yet 'you' ALL relish in your 'heaven-like' conditions when "others" are burning in 'hell-like' conditions. But you are able to "justify" this because 'you' CHOOSE who the loved ones are, and dismiss ALL the "others" as just that "just others". 'You' are so SELFISH that you do NOT care about children who are NOT 'yours'.

2. The story of heaven and hell is in regards to how you leave this 'life', in which your children/loved ones will live in, 'after' "you have passed on", as they say.

3. Heaven and hell is NOT, and I repeat NOT, about what happens to 'YOU', individually. The VERY REASON WHY this 'life' does NOT really improve is because 'you', adults are so 'self-centered' and so selfish that 'you' can NOT even SEE past YOUR OWN 'self' in relation to what the True stories are in relation to in 'religions'.

4. The stories about heaven and hell are in relation to 'you', human beings, as a whole. Heaven and hell is about humanity, itself, and NOT about 'you' individually after 'you', individually, die. Humanity has the ability to live or exist eternally. So, how each generation behaves, or misbehaves, then effects what WILL happen eternally, for the younger ones, children, or next generation, which are the Truly 'loved ones'.

Lacewing wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:23 pm
It makes no sense of any compassionate, loving being!
Then I suggest; If it makes no sense, then it is thee WRONG interpretation.
Lacewing wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:23 pm
That's what I see about religion in general: it makes no sense!
Again, this is because you are LOOKING AT and SEEING a WRONG 'interpretation'?

Would you care to share YOUR definition and interpretation of what 'religion' means, to you?
Lacewing wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:23 pm
It's a convoluted assemblage of stories and brain-washing, by various groups of people using varying methodologies, who seek to control and judge and reassure themselves and others with fantasy. I think it's unnecessary... as well as delusional and toxic.
You have OBVIOUSLY been taught a completely WRONG, TWISTED, and DISTORTED version. But this is NOT to be unexpected at all because there is NO person, which I KNOW of, that KNOWS HOW to explain the True, Right, and Correct version YET, in the days of when this is being written.
Lacewing wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:23 pm
The religious choose a static story rather than being open to an ever-broadening of awareness. They choose death over life -- limits over expansiveness -- locking themselves down, rather than spreading their wings. What kind of angels are those? :lol:
It appears that you have very ONE-sided view and perspective of this. A bit like how you project the so called "religious" to be, correct?
Lacewing wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:23 pm
Stunted, fearful, contrived. If there were a great devil, he would surely be the creator of religion: a perfect means for distorting and derailing people from seeing and honoring the divine nature accessible and reflected throughout all.
This is absolutely CORRECT, in the sense that the devil convolutes and confuses 'that', which is essentially extremely simple and easy, and deceives and fools each person to BELIEVE that what they view is the true, right, and correct view and "other's" opposing views are the false, wrong, and incorrect views. Just exactly like what you are doing here now.
Lacewing wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:23 pm
A great deceiver pulling off the perfect deception/cover -- pretending to be exactly that which it is not! What could be more effective for assembling and mobilizing deceived and devoted armies?
You are absolutely correct here as well. Although it is 'you' 'trying to' form an army AGAINST those with 'religious' views, which you appear to absolutely detest and HATE.
Lacewing wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:23 pm
Despite any "good works" (which are actually from the beauty of the individuals themselves), religion is/creates/perpetuates the evil that it continually warns against, pretends to be above, and hides behind.
If I recall correctly, you 'try to' create/perpetuate a view of opening up and seeing a bigger view of things, but you also actually are continually doing against this, and being what you 'pretend' to be, and hide behind.
Lacewing wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:23 pm
That is why concepts of Heaven and Hell are so hatefully twisted: they are a smokescreen for fear and hatefulness. They are not really about goodness and love. And, strangely, very good people get sucked into perpetuating such fear and hatefulness.
OR, maybe heaven and hell are stories about what to do in order to create True goodness and LOVE, but you are just SEEING them in a TOTALLY ignorant and hateful way, yourself?

Age
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Re: Here’s a question for anyone who believes in the existence of HELL:

Post by Age » Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:17 am

seeds wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:18 pm
seeds wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:51 am
Because the real issue comes in the form of how ridiculous it is to think that the occupants of Heaven,...

(allegedly a place of supreme love and beauty)

...would function in such a dark and demented state of mind as to accept, not only the existence of the never-ending torture and suffering of sentient beings, but a torturing of their very own earthly friends, relatives, and loved ones.

Who, exactly, are the real demons in this bizarre theological concoction?
Lacewing wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:23 pm
Yes, exactly!

Religion CREATES EVIL which is projected onto others. This serves to falsely glorify the religious as being above that which is made-up. It's so incredibly absurd and transparent, I don't know how anyone can still be believing/repeating such things.
As always, Lacewing, you make some excellent points.

However, just so that there is no misunderstanding here, I unashamedly admit that I am a hardcore theist (more specifically, a panentheistic idealist) who firmly believes that there is a singular (self-aware) living intelligence that is responsible for the creation of our universe. I’m talking about an intelligence that I suggest is as far above humans in scope and consciousness as humans are above amoebas (metaphorically speaking, of course).
But understanding what this Intelligence actually IS is extremely simple and easy for human beings to understand and KNOW in scope, and in Consciousness.
seeds wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:18 pm
And the point is that this thread is not meant to throw the “baby” out with the nasty bathwater.

As I have stated many times in this forum, it is time for a new “material/spiritual paradigm” to replace the nonsense of the old paradigm.
Or, maybe, it is just the time for thee perceived "new" correct and right 'interpretation' to just replace the nonsense of the old 'interpretation', which is, unfortunately, still being HELD onto.
seeds wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:18 pm
Lacewing wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:23 pm
The religious choose a static story rather than being open to an ever-broadening of awareness. They choose death over life -- limits over expansiveness -- locking themselves down, rather than spreading their wings.
I am sure that you already know this, but other than in some random cases, I don’t think it’s so much that the adherents of any particular religion “choose” what they believe.

No, for it seems obvious that most humans are the victims of the result of that which is foisted upon them due to the incessant indoctrination (brainwashing) they receive from the moment of birth – all of which is dependent upon when and where they awakened into life on the surface of this flying orb.
Why only "most" humans?

How do you separate and distinguish between those who are, so called, "victims" from those who are supposedly not?

You are not 'trying to' suggest that only "others" have fallen victim to being indoctrinated (brainwashed) but you were able to not be and thus see things absolutely CLEARLY?
seeds wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:18 pm
Furthermore, even though you and I are being highly critical and scornful of the absurdity of what I tried to point out in the OP, we must also try to be more understanding of how difficult it is for the average person to break-free and rise above their initial “brainwashing.”
LOL And what about the, so called, "brainwashing" that you two are going through, and ARE IN, right now? Or, do you seriously BELIEVE that 'you' have NOT been "brainwashed" at all?
seeds wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:18 pm
And lastly, Lacewing, if we simply approach this as if we were some kind of demolition crew armed with wrecking balls and sawzalls to destroy all of the old religious edifices that billions of humans desperately rely on for hope and comfort; a destruction carried out without any plans or blueprints in hand for the erection of something new and more logical to replace those edifices...

...then we are no better than the angry and snarling hardcore atheists who only offer pure and empty nihilism in the wake of their attacks on religion.
_______
Yes, 'you' are NO better than ANY "other" human being, who was just brought up in completely different circumstances.

By the way EVERY 'child' can be a victim of their circumstances, but NO 'adult' can be because it is 'you', adults, who are creating the circumstances, which you find yourselves IN.

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Lacewing
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Re: Here’s a question for anyone who believes in the existence of HELL:

Post by Lacewing » Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:38 am

Age to Lacewing wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:25 am
blah, blah, blah
Age, you are still writing in a way that is of no interest or value to me. Take all of your claims and opinions and viewpoints and chew on them until you can't stand the taste of them anymore -- and THEN maybe you'll have something new and interesting to offer.

You have no idea what you're talking about in regard to me. You do not know me. It is very arrogant and stupid for you to act like you know what I am (or am not) and what I think. You are talking about the projections of your noisy mind.

Age
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Re: Here’s a question for anyone who believes in the existence of HELL:

Post by Age » Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:26 am

Lacewing wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:05 pm
seeds wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:18 pm
As I have stated many times in this forum, it is time for a new “material/spiritual paradigm” to replace the nonsense of the old paradigm.
I agree. I am not sure, however, that most religions and their followers can be free enough from their stories and the payoffs of those stories -- to be clear and present enough to create/understand a new/different paradigm -- unless there is some kind of great undoing (and resulting awakening) to help them let go of what they're locked onto.
If you do happen to find an actual way to get people to 'let go' and thus become OPEN, ENOUGH, in order for them to be able to SEE and learn what IS actually True, Right, and Correct in Life, then please be sure to let me know.

If you ever happen to actually 'let go' of your own beliefs, which you are HOLDING ONTO dearly, then also please let me know what 'it' was, which actually triggered you into this 'letting go'.
Lacewing wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:05 pm
seeds wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:18 pm
I am sure that you already know this, but other than in some random cases, I don’t think it’s so much that the adherents of any particular religion “choose” what they believe.

No, for it seems obvious that most humans are the victims of the result of that which is foisted upon them due to the incessant indoctrination (brainwashing) they receive from the moment of birth – all of which is dependent upon when and where they awakened into life on the surface of this flying orb.
I can imagine it seems less escapable for those who live in situations of limited options and exposure. But many of us can and do think for ourselves much more freely (and we evolve in many ways over the course of our lifetimes). I admit that I've been shocked by the senseless zombie-like responses given by some people interviewed at Trump rallies -- because it is as if they have gleefully handed themselves over to a certain mindset without critically questioning/assessing anything for themselves. I guess this is how, in human history, armies of people have been able to follow crazed leadership/platforms down inexplicable paths. I thought we were beyond such things. Apparently not! Good to know. Group mentality seems very intoxicating.
Human beings are that far down the, seemingly, "inexplicable" path of 'chasing after money' as though money was some sort of 'need' in Life. The actual explanation of WHY ALL adult human beings chase after money instead of doing what is actually Right in Life is easy and simple to explain and understand. But, sadly, most adult human beings do NOT even recognize that they are on the WRONG path and do NOT accept that they are being LED down the WRONG path in Life. Most adult human beings do NOT accept that they are NOT actually thinking for themselves at all, and that they are just thinking the way that they do based solely upon their own, out of their own control, past experiences.

People are the sum of, or the result of, their own past experiences. They are NOT a Truly FREE thinking individual.
Lacewing wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:05 pm
seeds wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:18 pm
Furthermore, even though you and I are being highly critical and scornful of the absurdity of what I tried to point out in the OP, we must also try to be more understanding of how difficult it is for the average person to break-free and rise above their initial “brainwashing.”
I think I understand to a certain degree: I remember the turmoil I went through myself when realizing that everything I had been so sure of, was wrong or untrue.
Well this explains A LOT.

Why were you previously SO SURE OF things? Were you being lied to, or for some other reason?

Did you lose trust in that thing that was making you SO SURE OF things?
Lacewing wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:05 pm
I remember the utter terror! I remember the existential threat to my ego and identity. But I simply could not "unsee" or go back... as much as I wanted to... when I realized there was a much larger "universe" of thought/potential than what I'd believed there was. I realized that my ego and my belief had been barriers to greater truth, so I needed to tell them to take a back seat -- and I became hungry for more and new information to learn about a broader landscape. I discovered a BOUNTY of information all around -- I only needed to be open to notice it. People on this forum have an opportunity to question things for themselves too. Some egos appear willing to be insane to insist on having the "highest" answers, which they suggest/claim that only they have.
And, even 'you', yourself, are making you have the 'highest' answers, which you appear to be suggesting/claiming that you have.

The hypocritical nature of what you, yourself, want to express and teach here is strikingly obvious.

Your own current BELIEFS is what is STOPPING you, yourself, to being more OPEN so that you, yourself, can broaden your own learning.
Lacewing wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:05 pm
seeds wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:18 pm
And lastly, Lacewing, if we simply approach this as if we were some kind of demolition crew armed with wrecking balls and sawzalls to destroy all of the old religious edifices that billions of humans desperately rely on for hope and comfort; a destruction carried out without any plans or blueprints in hand for the erection of something new and more logical to replace those edifices...

...then we are no better than the angry and snarling hardcore atheists who only offer pure and empty nihilism in the wake of their attacks on religion.
:lol: Well, I totally appreciate what you're saying. I think it's important to note that I would not use a wrecking ball in person (unless it was really applicable)! But, here, we're on a forum (a stage) where the hardest of the hardcore come to preach their particular manic notions with full blinding and fanatic headgear on.
And, you are EXACTLY one of them.

You are also so full 'head on' in this regard you will OPPOSE absolutely ANY thing which you regard opposes your own views or is even slightly in contrast with your own views and beliefs. You are so narrow and so closed on your own view of 'broadening one's views' that you instantly dismiss absolutely ANY thing, which you interpret as being a one-sided view. You are so CLOSED that what you SEE when people just express their points of views as them saying this is the ONLY WAY. You do NOT remain OPEN to LOOK AT and SEE what is actually being Truly said, and MEANT.

You do EXACTLY what you accuse "others" of.
Lacewing wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:05 pm
Anything I say to them is what I would say to myself if I were doing and saying what they are doing and saying.

LOL Well this OBVIOUSLY CLEARLY NOT what you do at all.
Lacewing wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:05 pm
Whatever hope and comfort they might actually need can be supported in so many places -- this forum is not one of them. So if people are HERE, I'm guessing they yearn for more challenge and truth, even if they put on a terrific show of resisting it. That offers a fantastic opportunity for others to express without restraint our own creative approach or onslaught -- and mine varies according to the person and the content/context. Aside from the entertainment value, it is truly my hope for people to consider/realize a freer and broader scope/universe for themselves (if they'd like that), even if they don't want to admit to it here.
Do you also 'hope' for 'you', yourself, to consider/realize a freer and broader scope/universe? Or, is that only for the "others"?

From my perspective, you do appear to be one of the MOST CLOSED and LESS FREER one's here, but contradictory you do NOT see NOR BELIEVE this at all.
Lacewing wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:05 pm
Personally, I would be wary of plans or blueprints for a new paradigm, because those would likely have more unevolved agendas built on unevolved beliefs (if we're really not beyond doing that yet, in general).
And, your own unevolved BELIEFS are NOT allowing you to SEE any other than an unevolved agenda BEFORE you even begin to LOOK AT a new idea/plan.

You have been so "brainwashed" to BELIEVE things "WILL HAPPEN" or "ARE OCCURRING" and so are one of the "victims" as mentioned earlier in this thread, that you have become SO CLOSED and thus will NOT OPEN up to 'new' things. Because of your own past traumatic experiences you have lost trust, and thus are the way that you ARE now.
Lacewing wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:05 pm
Clarity comes, rather (I think), from getting the noise/stories out of the way.
This implies and infers that 'you' are able to KNOW and distinguish between the ONE and ONLY Truth, from everything else.

So called "getting the noise/stories out of the way" means that you actually BELIEVE you can tell the difference.

All you are doing is just doing what ALL other adult human beings do, which is; To BELIEVE their own story/view is the True and Right one and all the other ones are just "noise" or "false or wrong stories".
Lacewing wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:05 pm
In other words, it's probably not about what we can add on or switch to, but about what we can lift off of ourselves. Stories are like blankets piled on top of us. My beliefs are (more often, these days) sitting in the back seat with my ego (because I prefer being present, open, and flexible), although they both (beliefs and ego) take turns trying to jump into the front seat to drive.
And from the way you frequently write here, beliefs and ego are at the helm and steering quite A LOT.

Although 'you' would LOVE to BELIEVE the exact opposite is true, from my perspective, it is actually NOT true.

To me, the one who 'you' are Truly fooling and deceiving in regards to being present, open, and flexible is your own 'self'.

When 'you' discover and/or learn who and what is the 'you' and who and what is the 'self' in the phrase "your own self", then 'you' will SEE far MORE CLEARLY just how 'you' have been and were actually being fooled and deceived.
Lacewing wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:05 pm
But it doesn't take long to see how that drives me into a ditch. :lol: Being freer of stuff piled onto me lightens everything up.
Do NOT assume NOR believe absolutely ANY thing, then 'you' have absolutely NOTHING on top of 'you'. Without assumptions and beliefs 'you' are literally weightlessness and as OPEN and FREE as you can possibly be. Without assumptions nor beliefs then you literally NOT limited by absolutely ANY thing.
Lacewing wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:05 pm
Everyone is free to think what makes sense to them, based on their surrounding influences/circumstances or not. Some may be afraid of having/acknowledging such freedom, and that's okay. But then they may have to work hard to maintain their limitations, and be less fulfilled by doing so. Maybe freedom from certain restrictions/distortions of belief and ego is not only a powerful tool/capability for humankind's and our own evolvement, but maybe it allows for more conscious creation and play while we're here? And how glorious might that be? If we can be loving and brave enough to embrace/accept such freedom and potential.
Just IMAGINE how FREE you would actually BE if you did not have to look for and find things to suit in with and fit in your already held assumptions and beliefs that you are holding and desperately 'trying to' maintain? If you were to 'let go' FULLY of ALL of those assumptions AND beliefs completely and wholeheartedly forever more, then IMAGINE how much MORE FREE you would be able to Truly BROADEN that limited horizon of yours, which you have now?

If you were to just 'let go' completely, then just IMAGINE how you might actually be able to SEE and MAKE SENSE OF the True PURPOSE of ALL religion/s and of the True messages, which they are FREELY expressing out.
Lacewing wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:05 pm
Thanks for the thoughtful discussion. I would like to hear more of your thoughts.

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