The Evolution of Religion

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Nick_A
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Re: The Evolution of Religion

Post by Nick_A »

Sculptor
Was this great mind really wasted? Simone was a much admired member of the Marxist party in France. Her dediction to experience truth forced her to surpass political agendas and die a Christian mystic and intellectual influence on Pope Paul V1

This is the tragic confusion of a woman endowed with great reason clinging forlornly to the hope of god.
It is so sad that such a great mind was wasted on such trivial persuits.

Well - there you go. My point exactly.
Achieved nothing.

I did not say her mind was weak. You might want to read more carefully.
From G.I. Gurdjieff:

Hope, when bold, is strength. Hope, with doubt, is cowardice. Hope, with fear, is weakness.

Simone's hope wasn't Based on fear or with doubt. Her hope was bold. Only certain people are capable of it when times get rough. Simone didn't cling to the hope of God out of fear or doubt. She had the strength to live her life by hope
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Re: The Evolution of Religion

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Nick_A wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:28 pm Sculptor
Was this great mind really wasted? Simone was a much admired member of the Marxist party in France. Her dediction to experience truth forced her to surpass political agendas and die a Christian mystic and intellectual influence on Pope Paul V1

This is the tragic confusion of a woman endowed with great reason clinging forlornly to the hope of god.
It is so sad that such a great mind was wasted on such trivial persuits.

Well - there you go. My point exactly.
Achieved nothing.

I did not say her mind was weak. You might want to read more carefully.
From G.I. Gurdjieff:

Hope, when bold, is strength. Hope, with doubt, is cowardice. Hope, with fear, is weakness.

Simone's hope wasn't Based on fear or with doubt. Her hope was bold. Only certain people are capable of it when times get rough. Simone didn't cling to the hope of God out of fear or doubt. She had the strength to live her life by hope
You really should get in the habit of reading.
It's far more interelsting than copy&paste.
Nick_A
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Re: The Evolution of Religion

Post by Nick_A »

Sculptor wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:33 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:28 pm Sculptor
Was this great mind really wasted? Simone was a much admired member of the Marxist party in France. Her dediction to experience truth forced her to surpass political agendas and die a Christian mystic and intellectual influence on Pope Paul V1

This is the tragic confusion of a woman endowed with great reason clinging forlornly to the hope of god.
It is so sad that such a great mind was wasted on such trivial persuits.

Well - there you go. My point exactly.
Achieved nothing.

I did not say her mind was weak. You might want to read more carefully.
From G.I. Gurdjieff:

Hope, when bold, is strength. Hope, with doubt, is cowardice. Hope, with fear, is weakness.

Simone's hope wasn't Based on fear or with doubt. Her hope was bold. Only certain people are capable of it when times get rough. Simone didn't cling to the hope of God out of fear or doubt. She had the strength to live her life by hope
You really should get in the habit of reading.
It's far more interelsting than copy&paste.
This is the tragic confusion of a woman endowed with great reason clinging forlornly to the hope of god.
I don't see how anyone can read hope as you've described it as anything but an expression of weakness
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Sculptor
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Re: The Evolution of Religion

Post by Sculptor »

Nick_A wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:45 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:33 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:28 pm Sculptor



From G.I. Gurdjieff:

Hope, when bold, is strength. Hope, with doubt, is cowardice. Hope, with fear, is weakness.

Simone's hope wasn't Based on fear or with doubt. Her hope was bold. Only certain people are capable of it when times get rough. Simone didn't cling to the hope of God out of fear or doubt. She had the strength to live her life by hope
You really should get in the habit of reading.
It's far more interelsting than copy&paste.
This is the tragic confusion of a woman endowed with great reason clinging forlornly to the hope of god.
I don't see how anyone can read hope as you've described it as anything but an expression of weakness
So is that you in contradiction or are you claiming I am?
A person can be strong, clever even resourceful but have aspects of her thinking that are weak. People are complex.
She threw her talents away backing the wrong horse, leading to empty thoughts.
Nick_A
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Re: The Evolution of Religion

Post by Nick_A »

Sculptor wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:23 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:45 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:33 pm

You really should get in the habit of reading.
It's far more interelsting than copy&paste.
This is the tragic confusion of a woman endowed with great reason clinging forlornly to the hope of god.
I don't see how anyone can read hope as you've described it as anything but an expression of weakness
So is that you in contradiction or are you claiming I am?
A person can be strong, clever even resourceful but have aspects of her thinking that are weak. People are complex.
She threw her talents away backing the wrong horse, leading to empty thoughts.
You write of the results of thinking but that is not hope. How do you define hope?
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Sculptor
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Re: The Evolution of Religion

Post by Sculptor »

Nick_A wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:56 am
Sculptor wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:23 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:45 pm



I don't see how anyone can read hope as you've described it as anything but an expression of weakness
So is that you in contradiction or are you claiming I am?
A person can be strong, clever even resourceful but have aspects of her thinking that are weak. People are complex.
She threw her talents away backing the wrong horse, leading to empty thoughts.
You write of the results of thinking but that is not hope. How do you define hope?
Thinking something might be true or might happen when you really know it ain't.
Belinda
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Re: The Evolution of Religion

Post by Belinda »

Nick_A wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 5:20 pm
Belinda wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:58 am Nick_A quoted Simone Weil.

I believe that one identical thought is to be found—expressed very precisely and with only slight differences of modality—in. . .Pythagoras, Plato, and the Greek Stoics. . .in the Upanishads, and the Bhagavad Gita; in the Chinese Taoist writings and. . .Buddhism. . .in the dogmas of the Christian faith and in the writings of the greatest Christian mystics. . .I believe that this thought is the truth, and that it today requires a modern and Western form of expression. That is to say, it should be expressed through the only approximately good thing we can call our own, namely science. This is all the less difficult because it is itself the origin of science. Simone Weil….Simone Pétrement, Simone Weil: A Life, Random House, 1976, p. 488

"To restore to science as a whole, for mathematics as well as psychology and sociology, the sense of its origin and veritable destiny as a bridge leading toward God---not by diminishing, but by increasing precision in demonstration, verification and supposition---that would indeed be a task worth accomplishing." Simone Weil


But men built and continue to build that "bridge leading toward God". It's impossible for men to know whether or not that man-made bridge is supported on more than faith which leads men to try to make our lives meaningful. The "identical thought" just as Simone describes it, is a thought that comes from men and the evolution of cultures, and is the backbone of what most people today call morality.
It is a step too far to claim "this thought is the truth". Moreover it's not the business of science to be "bridge leading toward God". No scientist ever believes they have or can find ultimate truth. It's politically dangerous to place the burden of finding and discovering meaning upon any person or institution whether that be a religion or science.

Each of us makes meanings as we live our lives and then each of us dies and our meanings are thereby finalised.
We know how the aim of science which is discovering the nature of truth has become corrupted by pragmatism or its use to serve the goals of Man. We know how the aim of the essence of religion to experience the nature of truth has been also corrupted by pragmatism and its desire to use religion. With that in mind, consider the Tower of Babel in Genesis 11:
11 Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. 2 As people moved eastward,[a] they found a plain in Shinar and settled there.

3 They said to each other, “Come, let’s make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. 4 Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.”

5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”

8 So the Lord scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. 9 That is why it was called Babel[c]—because there the Lord confused the language of the whole world. From there the Lord scattered them over the face of the whole earth.
All parables and myths in the Bible have both a literal and a psychological meaning. What does it mean psychologically to move eastward? The people used their own ideas rather than the Lord's plan (bricks instead of stone) to build the tower so God stopped building the city. Can you see why and how building on Man's ideas could have resulted in a demonic city.

We are building a bridge leading to God. Suppose it foundation causes it to fall through ignorance of universal purpose as did the Tower of Babel? If we are so eager to corrupt science and religion through pragmatism, what else is possible?
Nick, your conceive of corruption as what deviates from your particular religious faith. I conceive of corruption as what deviates from honest and well meaning.
Nick_A
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Re: The Evolution of Religion

Post by Nick_A »

Sculptor wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:01 am
Nick_A wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:56 am
Sculptor wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:23 pm

So is that you in contradiction or are you claiming I am?
A person can be strong, clever even resourceful but have aspects of her thinking that are weak. People are complex.
She threw her talents away backing the wrong horse, leading to empty thoughts.
You write of the results of thinking but that is not hope. How do you define hope?
Thinking something might be true or might happen when you really know it ain't.
From G.I. Gurdjieff:

Hope, when bold, is strength. Hope, with doubt, is cowardice. Hope, with fear, is weakness.
You seem to be describing hope as an external expression of fear and cowardice. Hope as an inner quality of strength is something different. In the future the evolution of religion could help clarify these questions
Nick_A
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Re: The Evolution of Religion

Post by Nick_A »

Belinda
All parables and myths in the Bible have both a literal and a psychological meaning. What does it mean psychologically to move eastward? The people used their own ideas rather than the Lord's plan (bricks instead of stone) to build the tower so God stopped building the city. Can you see why and how building on Man's ideas could have resulted in a demonic city.

We are building a bridge leading to God. Suppose it foundation causes it to fall through ignorance of universal purpose as did the Tower of Babel? If we are so eager to corrupt science and religion through pragmatism, what else is possible?


Nick, your conceive of corruption as what deviates from your particular religious faith. I conceive of corruption as what deviates from honest and well meaning.
It is emotional faith on your part that believes humanity as a whole is capable of honesty and well meaning. I believe in the potential for a complimentary relationship between science and the essence of religion. Everything depends on the potential for Man to transcend emotional faith and become capable of the experience of conscious faith or "conscience." But how many know the difference even theoretically, between emotional and conscious faith? So regardless of all the good intentions, Man's hypocrisy governs the world.
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Re: The Evolution of Religion

Post by Sculptor »

Nick_A wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 3:28 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:01 am
Nick_A wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:56 am

You write of the results of thinking but that is not hope. How do you define hope?
Thinking something might be true or might happen when you really know it ain't.
From G.I. Gurdjieff:

Hope, when bold, is strength. Hope, with doubt, is cowardice. Hope, with fear, is weakness.
You seem to be describing hope as an external expression of fear and cowardice. Hope as an inner quality of strength is something different. In the future the evolution of religion could help clarify these questions
You are going round in circles.
Belinda
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Re: The Evolution of Religion

Post by Belinda »

Nick_A wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 3:49 pm Belinda
All parables and myths in the Bible have both a literal and a psychological meaning. What does it mean psychologically to move eastward? The people used their own ideas rather than the Lord's plan (bricks instead of stone) to build the tower so God stopped building the city. Can you see why and how building on Man's ideas could have resulted in a demonic city.

We are building a bridge leading to God. Suppose it foundation causes it to fall through ignorance of universal purpose as did the Tower of Babel? If we are so eager to corrupt science and religion through pragmatism, what else is possible?


Nick, your conceive of corruption as what deviates from your particular religious faith. I conceive of corruption as what deviates from honest and well meaning.
It is emotional faith on your part that believes humanity as a whole is capable of honesty and well meaning. I believe in the potential for a complimentary relationship between science and the essence of religion. Everything depends on the potential for Man to transcend emotional faith and become capable of the experience of conscious faith or "conscience." But how many know the difference even theoretically, between emotional and conscious faith? So regardless of all the good intentions, Man's hypocrisy governs the world.
Yes, I do believe honesty and well meaning are basic qualities of men. There is plenty of evidence. No society , including societies with the most oppressive and cruel regimes , can be a society unless honesty and well meaning are basic to how men deal with each other every day. And yet there are societies of people.
Nick_A
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Re: The Evolution of Religion

Post by Nick_A »

Sculptor wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 4:25 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 3:28 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:01 am
Thinking something might be true or might happen when you really know it ain't.
From G.I. Gurdjieff:

Hope, when bold, is strength. Hope, with doubt, is cowardice. Hope, with fear, is weakness.
You seem to be describing hope as an external expression of fear and cowardice. Hope as an inner quality of strength is something different. In the future the evolution of religion could help clarify these questions
You are going round in circles.
Does this make any sense to you:
"Hope is a state of mind, not of the world. Hope, in this deep and powerful sense, is not the same as joy that things are going well, or willingness to invest in enterprises that are obviously heading for success, but rather an ability to work for something because it is good." Vaclav Havel
Hope like faith and love have three expressions which correspond to the three types of human intellect: faith, hope, and love. Most are unaware of how different they are in objective quality. A real church as an esoteric school could enable a person to experience the difference between these three types of human expression. How much harm is caused by confusing emotional faith, manipulating people, with conscious faith which opens the mind. We do have a long way to go before the complimentary relationship between science and religion is appreciated and how to work towards it. However, it can be hoped for.
Nick_A
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Re: The Evolution of Religion

Post by Nick_A »

Belinda wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:22 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 3:49 pm Belinda
All parables and myths in the Bible have both a literal and a psychological meaning. What does it mean psychologically to move eastward? The people used their own ideas rather than the Lord's plan (bricks instead of stone) to build the tower so God stopped building the city. Can you see why and how building on Man's ideas could have resulted in a demonic city.

We are building a bridge leading to God. Suppose it foundation causes it to fall through ignorance of universal purpose as did the Tower of Babel? If we are so eager to corrupt science and religion through pragmatism, what else is possible?


Nick, your conceive of corruption as what deviates from your particular religious faith. I conceive of corruption as what deviates from honest and well meaning.
It is emotional faith on your part that believes humanity as a whole is capable of honesty and well meaning. I believe in the potential for a complimentary relationship between science and the essence of religion. Everything depends on the potential for Man to transcend emotional faith and become capable of the experience of conscious faith or "conscience." But how many know the difference even theoretically, between emotional and conscious faith? So regardless of all the good intentions, Man's hypocrisy governs the world.
Yes, I do believe honesty and well meaning are basic qualities of men. There is plenty of evidence. No society , including societies with the most oppressive and cruel regimes , can be a society unless honesty and well meaning are basic to how men deal with each other every day. And yet there are societies of people.
If you haven't verified this, why isn't it blind emotional faith?

Consider the Holocaust and the Armenian genocide for examples. It is honest to say that killing people offers a lot of prestige to verify believed supremacy. Man is unique in that killing for self importance and respect for life are both qualities of men. How they can be reconciled, impossible for politics, yet possible for the evolution of religion. But for now we will continue to kill as we pontificate about morality and justify our hypocrisy. What is wrong with this picture?
Belinda
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Re: The Evolution of Religion

Post by Belinda »

Nick_A wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:55 pm
Belinda wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:22 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 3:49 pm Belinda



It is emotional faith on your part that believes humanity as a whole is capable of honesty and well meaning. I believe in the potential for a complimentary relationship between science and the essence of religion. Everything depends on the potential for Man to transcend emotional faith and become capable of the experience of conscious faith or "conscience." But how many know the difference even theoretically, between emotional and conscious faith? So regardless of all the good intentions, Man's hypocrisy governs the world.
Yes, I do believe honesty and well meaning are basic qualities of men. There is plenty of evidence. No society , including societies with the most oppressive and cruel regimes , can be a society unless honesty and well meaning are basic to how men deal with each other every day. And yet there are societies of people.
If you haven't verified this, why isn't it blind emotional faith?

Consider the Holocaust and the Armenian genocide for examples. It is honest to say that killing people offers a lot of prestige to verify believed supremacy. Man is unique in that killing for self importance and respect for life are both qualities of men. How they can be reconciled, impossible for politics, yet possible for the evolution of religion. But for now we will continue to kill as we pontificate about morality and justify our hypocrisy. What is wrong with this picture?
Nazi Germany's regime depended upon basic honesty and well meaning among its own Nazi citizens. The evil that pertained to Nazi Germany was that honesty and well meaning affected only ethnic Germans, and excluded other 'races' who were viewed as lesser human beings.

There are antisocial individuals among all societies, individuals who are dishonest and not well meaning. But unless the antisocial elements are dominant the society survives.
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Re: The Evolution of Religion

Post by Sculptor »

Nick_A wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:37 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 4:25 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 3:28 pm



You seem to be describing hope as an external expression of fear and cowardice. Hope as an inner quality of strength is something different. In the future the evolution of religion could help clarify these questions
You are going round in circles.
Does this make any sense to you:
"Hope is a state of mind, not of the world. Hope, in this deep and powerful sense, is not the same as joy that things are going well, or willingness to invest in enterprises that are obviously heading for success, but rather an ability to work for something because it is good." Vaclav Havel
Hope like faith and love have three expressions which correspond to the three types of human intellect: faith, hope, and love. Most are unaware of how different they are in objective quality. A real church as an esoteric school could enable a person to experience the difference between these three types of human expression. How much harm is caused by confusing emotional faith, manipulating people, with conscious faith which opens the mind. We do have a long way to go before the complimentary relationship between science and religion is appreciated and how to work towards it. However, it can be hoped for.
Makes perfect sense.
But I have already told you what hope is.
What you repeat to paste is simply wrong, and reinforces exactly what I said about Weil at the top of this discussion. A wasted life.
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