The Evolution of Religion

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Belinda
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Re: The Evolution of Religion

Post by Belinda »

Nick_A wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:07 pm
Belinda wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:54 pm Nick, you misquoted me in your last post .I did not say what you wrote I said.

You did not answer my question:

Do you believe a) there are some people who have lived perfectly good lives, or do you believe b)perfect goodness is aspirational?
Please answer in ordinary language either a) or b).
Tough nite. :D I'll try again

Good is a relative term. I've learned that people who are good in society are often the most hated since they are considered boring. They don't have agendas They are called good householders. They take care of their families and responsibilities and considerate of others. They live good lives.

However what of the Simone types who have felt living a good life requires being a seeker of truth or the need to feel, to experience, the inner direction of the good as distinct from reacting to society. They both live good lives but "good" has relative connotations. The good householder refers to societal good and the Simone types refers to the relativity of human being which requires the conscious need or aspiration not wanted by society.

Since "good" is a relative term the answer must be both a and b depending upon which perspective you are referring to. But the bottom line is that as the "wretched man," the "good" is just an ideal.
But I did not say relatively good/ relative goodness I said perfectly good/perfect goodness.
Nick_A
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Re: The Evolution of Religion

Post by Nick_A »

Belinda wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:00 pm
Nick_A wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:07 pm
Belinda wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:54 pm Nick, you misquoted me in your last post .I did not say what you wrote I said.

You did not answer my question:

Do you believe a) there are some people who have lived perfectly good lives, or do you believe b)perfect goodness is aspirational?
Please answer in ordinary language either a) or b).
Tough nite. :D I'll try again

Good is a relative term. I've learned that people who are good in society are often the most hated since they are considered boring. They don't have agendas They are called good householders. They take care of their families and responsibilities and considerate of others. They live good lives.

However what of the Simone types who have felt living a good life requires being a seeker of truth or the need to feel, to experience, the inner direction of the good as distinct from reacting to society. They both live good lives but "good" has relative connotations. The good householder refers to societal good and the Simone types refers to the relativity of human being which requires the conscious need or aspiration not wanted by society.

Since "good" is a relative term the answer must be both a and b depending upon which perspective you are referring to. But the bottom line is that as the "wretched man," the "good" is just an ideal.
But I did not say relatively good/ relative goodness I said perfectly good/perfect goodness.
Belinda you wrote
You may like to bear in mind Jesus said "there is none good but God."
If Jesus asked "why call me good" isn't it better to just throw in the towel and admit objective good does not refer to us but is just an ideal humanity can evolve towards, a quality of the ONE.
Nick_A
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Re: The Evolution of Religion

Post by Nick_A »

According to Einstein the next step in the evolution of religion is becoming open to universal conscience for those capable of transcending subjective secular morality.

But then opening to conscience invites a higher level of consciousness than our normal dual reactions to the world we function in. Where secularism is a dualistic response to the impressions of the world, universalism sees the universe as triune reality, the union of three forces adding the third force of depth to animalistic duality. Such a person could evolve from sub-human being to becoming truly human. But how can we do it?
Simone Weil and Thomas Merton were born in France 6 years apart - 1909 and 1915 respectively. Weil died shortly after Merton entered the Abbey of Gethsemani. It is unclear whether Weil knew of Merton, but Merton records being asked to review a biography of Weil (Simone Weil: A Fellowship in Love, Jacques Chabaud, 1964) and was challenged and inspired by her writing. “Her non-conformism and mysticism are essential elements in our time and without her contribution we remain not human.”
The world needs more people able to reason from a universal triune perspective rather than blindly conforming and reacting to worldly dualistic impressions. When such a person is open to the experience of objective conscience introducing objective value as opposed to relying on indoctrinated morality, that would be a real human being rather than sub-human with the potential to consciously develop and become human. They can reason and feel like a real human being

As I've learned it, the evolution of religion requires three steps. The first is the reason, the need to be. The second is to become able to be, and the third is the ability to do.

There are many with the need to feel the reality of life beyond what the world offers. They want to do but cannot. They lack the second step. They do not know how so often fall victim to fantasy and turn in circles. Maybe that is why the church was initially an esoteric school aimed primarily at the inner man rather than a secularized institution aimed at the outer man.
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Sculptor
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Re: The Evolution of Religion

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Nick_A wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:33 pm According to Einstein the next step in the evolution of religion is becoming open to universal conscience for those capable of transcending subjective secular morality.
Do you have a reference for that?
Nick_A
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Re: The Evolution of Religion

Post by Nick_A »

Sculptor wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:46 pm
Nick_A wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:33 pm According to Einstein the next step in the evolution of religion is becoming open to universal conscience for those capable of transcending subjective secular morality.
Do you have a reference for that?
Read What Einstein wrote in the OP. Religion began on the surface primarily as a religion of fear which gradually evolved into a religion of blind morality. Einstein uses the term "cosmic religious feeling" which is feeling objective universal conscience. Read the OP; it is all there.
Belinda
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Re: The Evolution of Religion

Post by Belinda »

Nick wrote:
If Jesus asked "why call me good" isn't it better to just throw in the towel and admit objective good does not refer to us but is just an ideal humanity can evolve towards, a quality of the ONE.
It is indeed.


I am not sure what you mean by "the ONE . I'd say I want to evolve towards being more human less amorphous.
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Dontaskme
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Re: The Evolution of Religion

Post by Dontaskme »

Although within the story of [His-story] there have been atrocities in the name of religion, the greatest horrors have not come from religion, but from power/politics, greed/economics and science devoid of the non-conceptual knowing heart.
(The silent watcher / listener is the non-conceptual knowing heart )
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Sculptor
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Re: The Evolution of Religion

Post by Sculptor »

Nick_A wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:16 pm
Sculptor wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:46 pm
Nick_A wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:33 pm According to Einstein the next step in the evolution of religion is becoming open to universal conscience for those capable of transcending subjective secular morality.
Do you have a reference for that?
Read What Einstein wrote in the OP. Religion began on the surface primarily as a religion of fear which gradually evolved into a religion of blind morality. Einstein uses the term "cosmic religious feeling" which is feeling objective universal conscience. Read the OP; it is all there.
He does not say that.
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Sculptor
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Re: The Evolution of Religion

Post by Sculptor »

Dontaskme wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:40 am Although within the story of [His-story] there have been atrocities in the name of religion, the greatest horrors have not come from religion, but from power/politics, greed/economics and science devoid of the non-conceptual knowing heart.
(The silent watcher / listener is the non-conceptual knowing heart )
How wrong you are.
All the horrors come from the myth that life is a rehearsal. And that myth is religion.
Belinda
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Re: The Evolution of Religion

Post by Belinda »

Sculptor wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:35 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:40 am Although within the story of [His-story] there have been atrocities in the name of religion, the greatest horrors have not come from religion, but from power/politics, greed/economics and science devoid of the non-conceptual knowing heart.
(The silent watcher / listener is the non-conceptual knowing heart )
How wrong you are.
All the horrors come from the myth that life is a rehearsal. And that myth is religion.
DAM has it right. Political power either invents a religion to serve its own ends, or political power hi-jacks an existing religion for the same purpose.
Nick_A
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Re: The Evolution of Religion

Post by Nick_A »

Belinda wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:25 am Nick wrote:
If Jesus asked "why call me good" isn't it better to just throw in the towel and admit objective good does not refer to us but is just an ideal humanity can evolve towards, a quality of the ONE.
It is indeed.


I am not sure what you mean by "the ONE . I'd say I want to evolve towards being more human less amorphous.
The ONE as I understand it is the quality in which the forms described by Plato exist as the source of our universe. Consciousness is a quality of receiving the wholeness of the universe as a part. Evolving towards a greater quality of consciousness requires being free of psychological obstacles which prevent it. Does Jacob Needleman make sense to you in this excerpt from "A Sense of the Cosmos"?
"We now see why a conscious universe makes no sense to modern science. In the ancient teachings, higher mind or consciousness is never identified with thought associations, no matter how ingenious they may be. If these teachings speak of levels of reality higher than human thought, they are referring, among other things, to an order of intelligence that is inclusive of thought.
Consciousness is another word for this power of active relationship or inclusion. Can the power to include ever be understood through a process of internal division and exclusion
? Fascinated by the activity of thinking, and drawn to it to the extent of psychological lopsidedness, is it any wonder that we modern scientific men almost never directly experience in ourselves that quality of force which used to be called the Active Intellect, and which in the medieval cosmic scheme was symbolized by a great circle that included the entire created universe?"
We are sub-human since our powers of inclusion are not developed.
"Do you wish to know God? Learn first to know yourself." - Abba Evagrius the Monk.
The first step in becoming human is accepting that we are not. We are like a piano student who first learns what it means to be able to play a piano. We are a sub-piano player. If we want to grow consciously in the direction of our source we need to make the sincere impartial efforts to know thyself, to know the machine which lives our life for us and how it works. Without this foundation all that results is pop psychology.
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Sculptor
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Re: The Evolution of Religion

Post by Sculptor »

Belinda wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:16 pm
Sculptor wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:35 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:40 am Although within the story of [His-story] there have been atrocities in the name of religion, the greatest horrors have not come from religion, but from power/politics, greed/economics and science devoid of the non-conceptual knowing heart.
(The silent watcher / listener is the non-conceptual knowing heart )
How wrong you are.
All the horrors come from the myth that life is a rehearsal. And that myth is religion.
DAM has it right. Political power either invents a religion to serve its own ends, or political power hi-jacks an existing religion for the same purpose.
Religion is a system of political power. What planet do you come from? You have the cart before the horse.
Nick_A
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Re: The Evolution of Religion

Post by Nick_A »

Religion is a relative term. Like love and art for example, the same word has several emotional connotations. The same word used to express the teachings of Christ is used to express the Spanish Inquisition.

Our species cannot consciously evolve through the facts of science or sensory experiences. It can only evolve through the direct experience of conscience replacing indoctrinated morality. It is obvious that the potential value of religion in opening a person to experience objective conscience is denied in secularism by negative associations with religion. It cannot be helped. Fortunately there are those from our past and hopefully in our future who are unafraid to make the efforts to "Know Thyself" and experience what it means to be human. We need their influence. Without it we do remain not human.
Skepdick
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Re: The Evolution of Religion

Post by Skepdick »

Sculptor wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:45 pm Religion is a system of political power. What planet do you come from? You have the cart before the horse.
Any system can be exploited for power. Academia. Philosophy. Science. Take your pick.

Knowledge is power. Knowing how to game systems - even more so!
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Sculptor
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Re: The Evolution of Religion

Post by Sculptor »

Skepdick wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:57 pm
Sculptor wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:45 pm Religion is a system of political power. What planet do you come from? You have the cart before the horse.
Any system can be exploited for power. Academia. Philosophy. Science. Take your pick.

Knowledge is power. Knowing how to game systems - even more so!
And it all stems from religion.
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