Abdulrahman Adel wrote: ↑Sat May 23, 2020 12:06 pm
If most humans live and die with the religion that they are born with from their family or society that they didn't choose, how come God rewards/punishes us for something that we didn't even choose?
You can extend the argument further and say that since the circumstances that we come to in the world are not under our control, much that follows is not under our control either. If you are the first-born son of a Mafia boss, how much choice do you really have to not become a mobster?
Perhaps God punishes / rewards us based on what we do control - which is different for everyone. What is a perfectly ordinary act for one person (e.g. being helpful to someone in a small way with no expectation of benefit), may be an act of extraordinary kindness for someone who grew up with nothing but violence and cruelty and selfishness around them. (Didn't C.S. Lewis write about that?)
So yes, the idea that God just looks at someone and says "Oh, that person belongs to the wrong religion, off to hell with them!" is bonkers.
Bonkers??
Note this supposed fact;
The fact that all non-Muslims (kuffar; sing. kafir) will remain in Hell (Jahannam) eternally is not our own personal opinion, but the categorical command of Allah, Most High. It is firmly established by the Qur’an and Sunnah. There are more than a hundred Qur’anic verses that inform us of this fact:
(Certainly, all disbelievers, be they from among the Ahl-i Kitab [Jews and Christians] or from among polytheists, will be in the fire of Hell. They will abide therein eternally. They are the worst of creatures.) [Al-Bayyinah 6]
(Beware of the Fire prepared for disbelievers.) [Al-i 'Imran 131]
(Whoever rebels against Allah and His Messenger and oversteps His bounds [rules of religion], Allah will make him enter a Fire, where he will abide forever.) [An-Nisa' 14]
(Whoever opposes the Messenger and follows a path other than that of the Believers, We will leave him in that path and make him enter Hell. What a bad place it is!) [An-Nisa' 115]
(Allah never forgives rejecters and the unjust. He guides them to the path of Hell, where they will abide forever. And this is easy for Allah.) [An-Nisa' 168, 169]
Like I said, bonkers. Unless you are a Calvinist or an Islamic fundamentalist. In which case it is still bonkers, but it will not seem bonkers.
The Catholic view - is that God will not punish anyone for things that are beyond their control. At least, that is what I was taught in religion classes in Catholic high school. But I have a friend whose parents are in Society of Pius X (or at least have lots of their material in the house), and even they agree that this is true, they just think that my classes vastly overstate the case. (Society of Piux X is a group for Catholics who are more Catholic than the Pope.)
Abdulrahman Adel wrote: ↑Sat May 23, 2020 12:06 pm
If most humans live and die with the religion that they are born with from their family or society that they didn't choose, how come God rewards/punishes us for something that we didn't even choose?
Of course we can choose our "religion." If we couldn't, nobody could change his/her mind, or convert from one belief (religious or ideological, of any kind) to the other. Culture would be absolute. It's clearly not, because there's far too many cases we see where people cross those lines.
Abdulrahman Adel wrote: ↑Sat May 23, 2020 12:06 pm
If most humans live and die with the religion that they are born with from their family or society that they didn't choose, how come God rewards/punishes us for something that we didn't even choose?
I have a feeling that Abdulrahman Adel is probably a drive-by (one time) poster.
Nevertheless, his question is a valid one.
And my stock (and no doubt way over-used) answer is that all religions in general are nothing more than “pacifying teats” for us worldlings to suckle-on until the truth of our ultimate destiny is revealed at the moment of death.
And, furthermore, I suggest that whatever that destiny may be,...
(whether it is eternal life in a new form in a higher context of reality – or – eternal oblivion via a complete loss of consciousness)
...it will be the exact same destiny for all of us and will not be contingent upon any of our actions or beliefs while on earth.
_______
Abdulrahman Adel wrote: ↑Sat May 23, 2020 12:06 pm
If most humans live and die with the religion that they are born with from their family or society that they didn't choose, how come God rewards/punishes us for something that we didn't even choose?
It's not god and never was who's doing the rewarding or punishing but the culture itself which imposes it. Societies which manifest their own gods make themselves equal to that which they create and therefore any subversion of its version of god is equivalent to the most extreme form of blasphemy. The greater the fusion between society and religion the greater the outrage; rejecting one is the same as rejecting the other, not only that but renouncing its history as well...especially true of Islam.
Abdulrahman Adel wrote: ↑Sat May 23, 2020 12:06 pm
If most humans live and die with the religion that they are born with from their family or society that they didn't choose, how come God rewards/punishes us for something that we didn't even choose?
Of course we can choose our "religion." If we couldn't, nobody could change his/her mind, or convert from one belief (religious or ideological, of any kind) to the other. Culture would be absolute. It's clearly not, because there's far too many cases we see where people cross those lines.
I believe his intention in this case is dealing with the specific situation where theists inherit their theism* from birth which is the case for the majority of theists.
I don't believe he is that ignorant there are no people who deliberately choose to be theists.
* religion is not accurate because not all religions punish their believers for sins.
Subject to evidence, I believe the number of people choosing to be theist from being non-theists is relatively insignificant to the majority of born theists.
It's not people who choose god. it's gods who choose their people.
But weren't gods created by man? Yes, they were.
So in fact... it's people who choose people.
And whom people choose is always the self, or the tribe or nation they live in.
In fact, it would be ludicruous to say, "Hey, I believe in God X, and you believe in Gods Y1, Y2, Y3... etc, but I think I am wrong and you are right. My God, in whom I believe, is a false God and yours are true Gods." Have you ever considered that?
Abdulrahman Adel wrote: ↑Sat May 23, 2020 12:06 pm
If most humans live and die with the religion that they are born with from their family or society that they didn't choose, how come God rewards/punishes us for something that we didn't even choose?
The simple answer is that god neither rewards or punishes. By and large the punishments are meted out by the faithful upon the faithless.
For thousands of years people have been persecuted for believing in the "wrong" thing, or acting "wrongly" according to a set of arbitrary rules codified by a priestly class. This was a minority activity until the Messianic religions took over the world, and it became standard practice to control and punish.
I think you should be asking what kind of god allows such diverse punishments and restrictions to be inflicted upon the people the world.
I think you will conclude that it is no god that anyone could ever believe in.
Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 5:46 am
I don't believe he is that ignorant there are no people who deliberately choose to be theists.
I think he knows that, too. But I think he wants to pretend it's otherwise. The question he framed doesn't really allow for a possibility other than cultural programming. But nobody could possibly be totally ignorant of the fact that people do cross those lines all the time.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 2:48 pm
The question he framed doesn't really allow for a possibility other than cultural programming. But nobody could possibly be totally ignorant of the fact that people do cross those lines all the time.
The question in his post is simply this: "If most humans live and die with the religion that they are born with from their family or society that they didn't choose, how come God rewards/punishes us for something that we didn't even choose?"
It's a good question. Can you address it from a theist perspective?
Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 3:39 pm
...how come God rewards/punishes us for something that we didn't even choose?"
It's a good question. Can you address it from a theist perspective?
Sure.
He doesn't. You can choose your beliefs. And you're responsible for your choice. The assumption "we didn't even choose" is obviously and verifiably wrong, since if it were true then nobody could ever change or choose his or her beliefs at all.
Lacewing wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 3:39 pm
...how come God rewards/punishes us for something that we didn't even choose?"
It's a good question. Can you address it from a theist perspective?
Sure.
He doesn't. You can choose your beliefs. And you're responsible for your choice. The assumption "we didn't even choose" is obviously and verifiably wrong, since if it were true then nobody could ever change or choose his or her beliefs at all.
Are some theist beliefs acceptable and some are not?
