There Are No Miracles

[RCSaunders]

There are no miracles. Any religion or ideology that claims there are miracles is automatically out of court.

A miracle is an imaginary event or phenomena that is impossible. If an event occurs that is possible it is not a miracle, it is simply a natural event. If an event is imagined that is impossible, it cannot and does not occur. The concept, "miracle," is self-contradictory.

[Flora]

There are no miracles. Any religion or ideology that claims there are miracles is automatically out of court.

A miracle is an imaginary event or phenomena that is impossible. If an event occurs that is possible it is not a miracle, it is simply a natural event. If an event is imagined that is impossible, it cannot and does not occur. The concept, "miracle," is self-contradictory.

It seems like I agree with each and every sentence of yours, but there also seem to be some problems with words. So I would like to know something regarding few of your words.

Your second sentence - "Any religion or ideology that claims there are miracles is automatically out of court.". In this sentence whether "claims" is on the basis of belief or understanding? If it is based on belief then it maybe right or it maybe wrong because even belief could be right sometimes. If it is based on understanding then atleast a part of it is right. Maybe it is not completely understood which is why they call it a miracle, which is actually natural. As you know we don't understand many things. For example- Mind. We don't understand mind.

So we call natural thing or phenomena miracle if we don't understand it, and miracle becomes natural once we start to fully understand it.. So our level of understanding must be taken into consideration while claiming something to be miracle or natural. Can you include our level of understanding with regards to claiming something to be miracle or natural?

A miracle is an imaginary event or phenomena that is impossible. If an event occurs that is possible it is not a miracle, it is simply a natural event.

In the quoted two lines there are two things. One is "imaginary event" and the other is "event occurs". These two lines seem to be saying "imaginary event is only in mind and not physically real" while "event occuring is real one and not just in mind". You use imaginary and occurring in two different ways with regards to events. I would like to know whether it's true, because as I see miracles are also physically real and not just something connecting to mind.

Thirdly I have problem with the word "impossible". When we don't understand many things, how can we say something impossible?

As you can understand this thread is little scientific and not purely philosophical, so we need some scientific logic also along with philosophical logic. So here is a link as an example for kind of miracle that seems impossible but occurs in real world.
Link to reincarnation cases with change in religion, race or nationality - https://www.reincarnationresearch.com/c ... ality-race

[Dontaskme]

There are no miracles. Any religion or ideology that claims there are miracles is automatically out of court.

The only 'miracle' that exists in reality, is within the actual meaning of the word ( ''Miracle'') within the context of which the concept is understood by association...No one understands this. No one claims or knows this to be actual fact, except in this fictional conception.

.

[RCSaunders]

As you know we don't understand many things. For example- Mind. We don't understand mind.

No knowledge can be based on what one does not know. Knowledge must be based on what one can know, not on what one's limited abilities preclude them from understanding.

If you do not understand what the mind and its nature are, then you don't, but it is a mistake to assume no one else does. The mind is human consciousness, which differs from all other animal consciousness because it is volitional, intellectual, and rational. [See my articles: The Nature of Consciousness and Mind]

A miracle is an imaginary event or phenomena that is impossible. If an event occurs that is possible it is not a miracle, it is simply a natural event.

In the quoted two lines there are two things. One is "imaginary event" and the other is "event occurs". These two lines seem to be saying "imaginary event is only in mind and not physically real" while "event occuring is real one and not just in mind". You use imaginary and occurring in two different ways with regards to events. I would like to know whether it's true, because as I see miracles are also physically real and not just something connecting to mind.

Thirdly I have problem with the word "impossible". When we don't understand many things, how can we say something is impossible?

Again, it is only what we can and do know that matters. Nothing can be said about what we do not know. What we do know is that nothing can both be and not be. If something exists, it is impossible for it to not exist (in the same way at the same time). We know that a thing cannot be one thing (a tree for example) and also another thing (an egg for example). In logic it is called the law of non-contradiction. In other words, it is impossible for two contradictory things to both be true. In logic that is called the law of excluded middle. A thing is either true or it isn't.

So you know it is impossible for anything that is true to also be untrue. You know that it is impossible for anything that is one thing to be something else. You now that it is impossible for something that must behave in a certain way to behave in some other way.

As you can understand this thread is little scientific and not purely philosophical, so we need some scientific logic also along with philosophical logic. So here is a link as an example for kind of miracle that seems impossible but occurs in real world.
Link to reincarnation cases with change in religion, race or nationality - https://www.reincarnationresearch.com/c ... ality-race

I have a very good friend who is Shinto and thoroughly believes in reincarnation. She believes everyone has had a former life. I once asked her how she explained the increase in world population since there were more and more people. Where did the new one's come from if everyone lived before. The question bothered her so I never pressed it.

So I'll ask you if you believe everyone is reincarnated. If so, where do new people come from and where did the first people come from? If everyone is not reincarnated, why should anyone be and how does one know if they are reincarnated or a whole new individual?

I'm sorry Flora, but reincarnation is a long way from science. It is, in fact, self-contradictory superstitious nonsense.

[Skepdick]

A miracle is an imaginary event or phenomena that is impossible. If an event occurs that is possible it is not a miracle, it is simply a natural event.

The word "phenomenon" implies something observed or experienced. What's an "impossible phenomenon"?

If an event is imagined that is impossible, it cannot and does not occur. The concept, "miracle," is self-contradictory.

So what conclusion do you draw if an event which is imagined as impossible does, in fact occur?

What happens when you witness something contrary to what you thought was impossible?

[Belinda]

By 'miracle' do we mean deliberate intervention by a deity in nature?

[Belinda]

If you believe minds are separate from bodies and can survive the death of bodies it's possible the mind of an individual could migrate into another body which lacks a mind. A formerly empty body could contain more than one mind.

This makes more sense than the Christian and Islam idea minds go to another place when their body dies.

There are still some people living now who believe minds are separate from bodies

[RCSaunders]

So what conclusion do you draw if an event which is imagined as impossible does, in fact occur?

I have no idea what, "an event which is imagined as impossible," would be.

What happens when you witness something contrary to what you thought was impossible?

There is nothing I think is not possible before its occurrence. The things I know are impossible will never occur.

[Skepdick]

I have no idea what, "an event which is imagined as impossible," would be.

The things I know are impossible will never occur.

So that's called a contradiction. Philosophers (the supposed guardians of logic) insist it's a bad thing.

There is nothing I think is not possible before its occurrence.

So after impossibility occurs then you think impossibility is possible?

[RCSaunders]

I have no idea what, "an event which is imagined as impossible," would be.

The things I know are impossible will never occur.

So that's called a contradiction.

Where's the contradiction?

There is nothing I think is not possible before its occurrence.

So after impossibility occurs then you think impossibility is possible?

The impossible does not occur. e.g. it is impossible that you were never born.

[Skepdick]

Where's the contradiction?

You know things are impossible, but then I asked you to give me an example of a thing you know is impossible and you can't.

So do you or don't you have an example of something that's supposedly impossible.

The impossible does not occur. e.g. it is impossible that you were never born.

You are making assertions about the past. Obviously the impossible hasn't occurred yet.

Otherwise it wouldn't be impossible.

[surreptitious57]

What is empirically impossible cannot happen for whatever reason but what human beings think is empirically impossible is not the same
For this is because the former is independent of any subjective human interpretation and so by default can only be true and nothing else
Whereas the latter is entirely dependent upon subjective human interpretation and so has the potential to be false so sometimes will be

[surreptitious57]

So what conclusion do you draw if an event which is imagined as impossible does in fact occur ?

What happens when you witness something contrary to what you thought was impossible ?

You accept immediately and without question that you were wrong and go with whatever the evidence says instead
And also remember for future reference that any interpretation based upon induction has the potential to be false

[Skepdick]

The things I know are impossible will never occur.

it is impossible that you were never born.

So I will never have been born?

Can you even stick to a tense?

[RCSaunders]

The things I know are impossible will never occur.

it is impossible that you were never born.

So I will never have been born?

Can you even stick to a tense?

If you have fun playing with semantics and want to believe in miracles, fine.

If I thought you were honest I would point you to what I've already written.

If something exists, it is impossible for it to not exist (in the same way at the same time). We know that a thing cannot be one thing (a tree for example) and also another thing (an egg for example). It is impossible for something that behaves in one way (oxygen supporting fire) to also behave in an opposite way (oxygen extinguishing fire).

It is not possible to identify an impossible thing in an ostensive sense. One cannot point at an example of an impossible thing, just because the impossible does not exist. The impossible is anything suggested that would require a contradiction, so, anything that is suggested that contradicts what is, would be impossible. If one is holding an orange in their hand, it is impossible that it is a plum, or a hammer, or book, or an insect, or any other of an infinite number of things that are not oranges. For everything that is true, there can be an infinite number of things suggested which are not true.