God and COVID-19

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Averroes
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Re: God and COVID-19

Post by Averroes »

Allah, the Almighty says in the Quran:
  • We are most knowing of what they say, and you are not over them a tyrant. But remind by the Qur'an whoever fears My threat. [Quran, interpretation of meaning, 50:45]
So for those here who are not arrogant and who fears the warning of the Creator, the Almighty; I humbly suggest to you to repent to Him sincerely and invite your surroundings and your loved ones to do the same. Let us all gather and join our forces to supplicate to our Creator, the Almighty alone to save us from this calamity that has befallen on us due to our wrong doing.

And also read and listen to the recitation of Holy Quran in a clean place as often as possible. The Holy Quran is a book for the whole mankind and not just the Muslims as Allah the Almighty Himself says:
  • O mankind, there has to come to you instruction from your Lord and healing for what is in the breasts and guidance and mercy for the believers.[Quran, interpretation of meaning,10:57]
Here is a recent YouTube video of a Jewish shopkeeper seeking the protection of God, the Almighty from the Corona virus by listening to the Holy Quran : https://youtu.be/miUfm0yANsI

If you were wondering who was the reciter in the video, then it is Mishary Al-Afasy. I like to listen to his recitation of the Holy Quran as well. Here is a couple of samples of his recitation: https://youtu.be/ZYaZ6Odbx_Y
and also https://youtu.be/jgkw0jAgb08

I was just informed that the finance minister of Germany has committed suicide out of despair that the economic impact of the Corona virus will have on the economy.
Suicide is not a solution. But turning to Allah, the Almighty and repenting to Him is the best solution for us. Allah, the Almighty hears and sees, and He has power over everything.
So, to forum members who are seeking for the best solution against covid-19 and its impact, share this information to the greatest numbers starting with your loved ones.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: God and COVID-19

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:09 am After reading about some of the horror stories going on in New York and other places in the world from COVID-19 right now--people drowning in their own blood-filled lungs, medical personnel getting sick while trying to help others--it really makes me wonder what kind of "god" presides over such horror? Is there really a God at all? And if there were, would it not be a God of evil? I was once an atheist because I thought the world was too messed up to be run by a God. Later I was willing to switch to agnosticism because I thought maybe the world is not such an evil place after all. But now I see so much suffering and horror that It really makes me want to go back to being an atheist or else it makes me think God must be evil. I can't believe in a God who allows so much suffering.
Can I ask a question, Gary?

What do you suppose God "should have" done, that He has not? In other words, if you were God (and say you were a good God too) how would you be likely to arrange things so that they would be different from the present situation?

Or to put it another way, IF God has somehow failed to be compassionate in this situation, what would proper compassion look like?
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Lacewing
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Re: God and COVID-19

Post by Lacewing »

Averroes wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:18 pm So for those here who are not arrogant and who fears the warning of the Creator, the Almighty; I humbly suggest to you to repent to Him...
It is actually arrogance and NOT humility that leads you to suggest that you know an ultimate god that others do not. And you project your own arrogance onto people who make no such claims. Who are you to tell other people to REPENT according to some idea you hold?
Gary Childress
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Re: God and COVID-19

Post by Gary Childress »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:21 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:09 am After reading about some of the horror stories going on in New York and other places in the world from COVID-19 right now--people drowning in their own blood-filled lungs, medical personnel getting sick while trying to help others--it really makes me wonder what kind of "god" presides over such horror? Is there really a God at all? And if there were, would it not be a God of evil? I was once an atheist because I thought the world was too messed up to be run by a God. Later I was willing to switch to agnosticism because I thought maybe the world is not such an evil place after all. But now I see so much suffering and horror that It really makes me want to go back to being an atheist or else it makes me think God must be evil. I can't believe in a God who allows so much suffering.
Can I ask a question, Gary?

What do you suppose God "should have" done, that He has not? In other words, if you were God (and say you were a good God too) how would you be likely to arrange things so that they would be different from the present situation?

Or to put it another way, IF God has somehow failed to be compassionate in this situation, what would proper compassion look like?
If I were God I wouldn't create viruses, and if people are to die, they should die by less horrible means than suffocating in their own blood. If I were God I would make the universe more hospitable to humans if there is to be overpopulation and therefore more space is needed. If I were God I would make the Sun last forever instead of supernova at some point. The list goes on and is a VERY long one.
philosopher
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Re: God and COVID-19

Post by philosopher »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:46 pm If I were God I wouldn't create viruses, and if people are to die, they should die by less horrible means than suffocating in their own blood. If I were God I would make the universe more hospitable to humans if there is to be overpopulation and therefore more space is needed. If I were God I would make the Sun last forever instead of supernova at some point. The list goes on and is a VERY long one.
God - if God exists - is also bound by the rules of logic. If you want advanced consciousness (like that of humans) to last forever, you are left with very few options of how to govern the universe.

Likewise, if you want to ensure that nobody are left to die a horrible death, I'm sure there are other side-effects of that assurance as well.

Nothing is free and everything - including omnipotence - even infinity itself has its own limits.

I suggest you go take a look at what is known as the 'butterfly effect'.
Gary Childress
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Re: God and COVID-19

Post by Gary Childress »

philosopher wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:06 pm

Likewise, if you want to ensure that nobody are left to die a horrible death, I'm sure there are other side-effects of that assurance as well.
So what would be a negative side effect of people dying peacefully? Logic has almost not bearing on whether or not the Sun supernovas or whether the universe can support human life, etc. It is perfectly in line with logic that natural phenomena could be different. Logic says very little of how physical reality should be. If anything it should be simple logic to determine that suffering is a bad thing. It's not rocket science.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: God and COVID-19

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:46 pmIf I were God I wouldn't create viruses, and if people are to die, they should die by less horrible means than suffocating in their own blood. If I were God I would make the universe more hospitable to humans if there is to be overpopulation and therefore more space is needed. If I were God I would make the Sun last forever instead of supernova at some point. The list goes on and is a VERY long one.
Okay, fair enough. Let's start with the COVID-19 issue, in specific, and if you want to, we'll work to others.

This is a human-created virus. We know that much, whether we claim it appeared in a lab or in the wet markets of Wuhan.

So what should a good God do about the people who create these things?
philosopher
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Re: God and COVID-19

Post by philosopher »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:09 pm
philosopher wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:06 pm

Likewise, if you want to ensure that nobody are left to die a horrible death, I'm sure there are other side-effects of that assurance as well.
So what would be a negative side effect of people dying peacefully? Logic has almost not bearing on whether or not the Sun supernovas or whether the universe can support human life, etc. It is perfectly in line with logic that natural phenomena could be different. Logic says very little of how physical reality should be.
It's not the peaceful dying-process that is the problem here. It has to do with the way to achieve this for everybody in every situation.
If you want the end-result to state: "Everybody dies peacefully with no pain" your starting position must be vastly different, meaning the in-betweens are vastly different from todays world. It may mean our life and achievements for the past 1 billion years as a living specie may have turned out very differently, perhaps we wouldn't even evolve as human beings in the first place.

That's what I mean by the 'butterfly effect', just that you extend this effect for billions of billions of years.
Gary Childress
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Re: God and COVID-19

Post by Gary Childress »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:13 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:46 pmIf I were God I wouldn't create viruses, and if people are to die, they should die by less horrible means than suffocating in their own blood. If I were God I would make the universe more hospitable to humans if there is to be overpopulation and therefore more space is needed. If I were God I would make the Sun last forever instead of supernova at some point. The list goes on and is a VERY long one.
Okay, fair enough. Let's start with the COVID-19 issue, in specific, and if you want to, we'll work to others.

This is a human-created virus. We know that much, whether we claim it appeared in a lab or in the wet markets of Wuhan.

So what should a good God do about the people who create these things?
I seriously doubt humans created this virus and besides viruses have been around for as long as people have, long before biological warfare and gene manipulation. You have to do some pretty fancy dancing to apologize for God in this case.
philosopher
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Re: God and COVID-19

Post by philosopher »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:13 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:46 pmIf I were God I wouldn't create viruses, and if people are to die, they should die by less horrible means than suffocating in their own blood. If I were God I would make the universe more hospitable to humans if there is to be overpopulation and therefore more space is needed. If I were God I would make the Sun last forever instead of supernova at some point. The list goes on and is a VERY long one.
Okay, fair enough. Let's start with the COVID-19 issue, in specific, and if you want to, we'll work to others.

This is a human-created virus. We know that much, whether we claim it appeared in a lab or in the wet markets of Wuhan.

So what should a good God do about the people who create these things?
I don't know if this virus was created by humans or not.

But in any case:

Leave it to humans to figure out. Sounds cynical, yes. But if you want God to figure out what to do with human free will (or even just the illusion of a will that is free), as a deity you'll have to confine every human being and let the entire humanity know it is imprisoned. You can't have the free will, nor the illusion of free will, if you don't allow evil to exist.
Last edited by philosopher on Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Gary Childress
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Re: God and COVID-19

Post by Gary Childress »

philosopher wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:14 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:09 pm
philosopher wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:06 pm

Likewise, if you want to ensure that nobody are left to die a horrible death, I'm sure there are other side-effects of that assurance as well.
So what would be a negative side effect of people dying peacefully? Logic has almost not bearing on whether or not the Sun supernovas or whether the universe can support human life, etc. It is perfectly in line with logic that natural phenomena could be different. Logic says very little of how physical reality should be.
It's not the peaceful dying-process that is the problem here. It has to do with the way to achieve this for everybody in every situation.
If you want the end-result to state: "Everybody dies peacefully with no pain" your starting position must be vastly different, meaning the in-betweens are vastly different from todays world. It may mean our life and achievements for the past 1 billion years as a living specie may have turned out very differently, perhaps we wouldn't even evolve as human beings in the first place.

That's what I mean by the 'butterfly effect', just that you extend this effect for billions of billions of years.
If you are talking evolution and humans evolving then you've pretty much departed from most religious cosmologies to start with. Sure, I imagine humans have evolved. We evolved to survive in an indifferent universe, not one of a caring God.
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Lacewing
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Re: God and COVID-19

Post by Lacewing »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:13 pm This is a human-created virus. We know that much, whether we claim it appeared in a lab or in the wet markets of Wuhan.

So what should a good God do about the people who create these things?
:lol:

What is God doing about anything?
philosopher
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Re: God and COVID-19

Post by philosopher »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:19 pm If you are talking evolution and humans evolving then you've pretty much departed from most religious cosmologies to start with. Sure, I imagine humans have evolved. We evolved to survive in an indifferent universe, not one of a caring God.
I kind of believe in God (but I want to emphasize I do not know if God exists), but a vital part of my faith is this core-statement:

Thy shalt not confuse science with the faith of humans.

In other words, belief in God (the acts of God) must be explained logically. Every act of God, must be justified using logical reasoning.
Every evidence of God (which is an entirely different thing altogether from belief) must be scientifically validated using The Scientific Method.
As far as I know, the latter has never been proven.

It also follows, that anything that cannot be directly related to God, must not be directly linked to God's will.
From this follows that God hardly intervenes in our world, but I don't know anything about this. I find that "not knowing" is better than believing in a false statement.
Last edited by philosopher on Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Gary Childress
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Re: God and COVID-19

Post by Gary Childress »

philosopher wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:26 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:19 pm If you are talking evolution and humans evolving then you've pretty much departed from most religious cosmologies to start with. Sure, I imagine humans have evolved. We evolved to survive in an indifferent universe, not one of a caring God.
I kind of believe in God, but a vital part of my faith is this core-statement:

Thy shalt not confuse science with the faith of humans.

In other words, belief in God (the acts of God) must be explained logically. Every act of God, must be justified using logical reasoning.
Every evidence of God (which is an entirely different thing altogether from belief) must be scientifically validated using The Scientific Method.
As far as I know, the latter has never succeeded.

It also follows, that anything that cannot be directly related to God, must not be directly linked to God's will.
From this follows that God hardly intervenes in our world, but I don't know anything about this. I find that "not knowing" is better than believing in a false statement.
So you believe in a God that doesn't intervene? Why not just dispense with the God belief altogether? Of what use is it to posit the existence of an entity that doesn't do anything, let alone worship it if it's to no end. May as well worship a head of cabbage for all the difference it would make.
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henry quirk
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Re: God and COVID-19

Post by henry quirk »

Gary Childress wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:09 am After reading about some of the horror stories going on in New York and other places in the world from COVID-19 right now--people drowning in their own blood-filled lungs, medical personnel getting sick while trying to help others--it really makes me wonder what kind of "god" presides over such horror? Is there really a God at all? And if there were, would it not be a God of evil? I was once an atheist because I thought the world was too messed up to be run by a God. Later I was willing to switch to agnosticism because I thought maybe the world is not such an evil place after all. But now I see so much suffering and horror that It really makes me want to go back to being an atheist or else it makes me think God must be evil. I can't believe in a God who allows so much suffering.
Some conceptions of god have him bein' vengeful, more than willin' to rain down hell on the wicked (collateral damage notwithstanding).

Some conceptions of god have him lettin' things play out, lettin' folks do, so that he may levy judgement on each for his vileness and his virtue in this life, in the afterlife.

My god is not vengeful, or judgemental: he's just gone, like an artist finished with one work and now busy with another.

We're on our own, which isn't so bad, if you think about it.
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