Smart Christianity / Dumb Christianity

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Smart Christianity / Dumb Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Lacewing wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:12 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:03 pm
Lacewing wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:02 pm They VOTE the way their church tells them to vote -- even when it's contrary to what they claim to believe in.
Your evidence for this is...?
I know Christians who have done this.

Do you seriously not even imagine it can be true?
I don't know who you know. I don't apparently even know people of the same sort you claim to know. And I don't even recognize what I know of Christians in your descriptions of what you claim that you know.

So I would indeed have to "imagine" what you claim.
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Lacewing
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Re: Smart Christianity / Dumb Christianity

Post by Lacewing »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:05 am So I would indeed have to "imagine" what you claim.
So I guess you're completely unaware of the massive Christian voting block that is guided by religion and churches. Interesting... your selective awareness and denial. There are always those who think for themselves, but there is no truthful denial of the major effect of religion controlling a vast majority of people and policies throughout the centuries with superstitious ignorance and destructive agendas.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Smart Christianity / Dumb Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Lacewing wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:26 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:05 am So I would indeed have to "imagine" what you claim.
So I guess you're completely unaware of the massive Christian voting block that is guided by religion and churches.
Where? There's no such thing where I live.

In all my experience, the Christians I know are apolitical. They vote all parties, and they're never asked what they vote. It's a private matter.

What is "religion and churches"? That manages to be both vague and redundant at the same time. What an odd phrase.
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Lacewing
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Re: Smart Christianity / Dumb Christianity

Post by Lacewing »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:47 am
Lacewing wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:26 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:05 am So I would indeed have to "imagine" what you claim.
So I guess you're completely unaware of the massive Christian voting block that is guided by religion and churches.
Where? There's no such thing where I live.
Ah, so you're unaware of anything beyond "where you live", despite general awareness that is shared throughout humankind. :lol: With this logic, you surely don't have any opinions then about anything that has ever happened beyond where you live or at any other time in history. After all, you didn't experience any such things personally, so they must not exist beyond imagining, regardless of what others say they know or have experienced, recorded, or widely discussed. Your little Universe must be very cozy with admiration for your supreme knowing of all the knowable space.
Dubious
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Re: Smart Christianity / Dumb Christianity

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Belinda wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:03 pm Dubious wrote:
The idea of god has always been relative to the individual man and collectively so within the culture he inhabits.
It feels good to be agreed with, Dubious, but I have to disagree with the above. Ideas of God have only recently since Einstein been relative to individuals' perspectives. For most of history people believed God was the central point of being that influenced all lesser beings.
Well, I'm somewhat at a loss! You wrote...
Now even some Xians can view God as relative to the state of consciousness of the individual man , and the culture within which the individual man has his being.
...to which I agreed. It doesn't sound any different from what I wrote or so it seems to me. Obviously I must have misconstrued your meaning. Regardless what I expressed is what I believe. Also, I have no idea what Einstein has to do with it or how that would apply. I know Nick quotes him often as if he were some super insightful guru of wisdom. I don't hold that view. If it weren't for the science he would hardly be known today.

Having said that, whatever people believe concerns only them regardless of its credibility content in spite of arguments and counter arguments in these kind of debates and will leave it at that.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Smart Christianity / Dumb Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Lacewing wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:13 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:47 am
Lacewing wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:26 am
So I guess you're completely unaware of the massive Christian voting block that is guided by religion and churches.
Where? There's no such thing where I live.
Ah, so you're unaware of anything beyond "where you live",
I'm aware of what is inherent to Christianity and normative for Christians. Politics and it don't mix, and there are good theological reasons for that. If, perchance, somebody does differently, then the fault is theirs, and is not inherent to Christianity.

I'm not calling you a liar. Maybe you know somebody who calls himself/herself a "Christian" and behaves as you describe. But I think you're making the mistake you're attributing to me, if that's the case: the mistake of thinking that "where you live" is representative. Evidently, it's not.
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Lacewing
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Re: Smart Christianity / Dumb Christianity

Post by Lacewing »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:27 am I'm aware of what is inherent to Christianity and normative for Christians.
Surely you are aware that there is more than that perspective/claim.

It seems that you continually want to paint Christianity as some certain model of truth and rightness, while ignoring and denying any of its variations or faults. And that is dishonest.
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:27 amIf, perchance, somebody does differently, then the fault is theirs, and is not inherent to Christianity.
Whose perspective is accurate about what is inherent to Christianity when interpretations/beliefs vary across locations and centuries?
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:27 amI think you're making the mistake you're attributing to me, if that's the case: the mistake of thinking that "where you live" is representative. Evidently, it's not.
Where we live is not representative of variation on a broader scale. That's why broader awareness is necessary. Many people hand themselves over mindlessly to supposed authority -- and flock together without doing their own research or soul-searching. You yourself said that people are followers -- which completely fits with what I'm saying -- but you agree when it supports your limited argument, and deny it when it doesn't.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Smart Christianity / Dumb Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Lacewing wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:06 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:27 am I'm aware of what is inherent to Christianity and normative for Christians.
Surely you are aware that there is more than that perspective/claim.
No, there is no more than that. That's what it is.

What some people may do with it is quite a different issue, of course.
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:27 amIf, perchance, somebody does differently, then the fault is theirs, and is not inherent to Christianity.
Whose perspective is accurate about what is inherent to Christianity when interpretations/beliefs vary across locations and centuries?
The fact that you're talking about "interpretations" and "perspective" answers your own question. A "perspective" is a viewpoint ON something. What is that "something" if not Christianity? And "interpretation" is somebody's reading of what a text says. That means there's a text. And for a start, any "interpretation" that doesn't fit the text is out.

One such interpretation would be the suggestion that Christianity is political. It's not. The text flatly refutes that. Anybody who does otherwise is not following the text, so their behaviour is not the fault of Christianity, but the opposite fault, the fault of NOT obeying Christianity.
Belinda
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Re: Smart Christianity / Dumb Christianity

Post by Belinda »

Dubious wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:16 am
Belinda wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:03 pm Dubious wrote:
The idea of god has always been relative to the individual man and collectively so within the culture he inhabits.
It feels good to be agreed with, Dubious, but I have to disagree with the above. Ideas of God have only recently since Einstein been relative to individuals' perspectives. For most of history people believed God was the central point of being that influenced all lesser beings.
Well, I'm somewhat at a loss! You wrote...
Now even some Xians can view God as relative to the state of consciousness of the individual man , and the culture within which the individual man has his being.
...to which I agreed. It doesn't sound any different from what I wrote or so it seems to me. Obviously I must have misconstrued your meaning. Regardless what I expressed is what I believe. Also, I have no idea what Einstein has to do with it or how that would apply. I know Nick quotes him often as if he were some super insightful guru of wisdom. I don't hold that view. If it weren't for the science he would hardly be known today.

Having said that, whatever people believe concerns only them regardless of its credibility content in spite of arguments and counter arguments in these kind of debates and will leave it at that.
I don't worship Einstein as if he were a guru. Einstein's theories of relativity have caused a paradigm shift in physics, thence in science, thence in how we can know anything at all. We can know only from our own perspectives , and it so happens men are individuals each with their unique brain development and life experience. This is one main reason we can discuss philosophies, because each of us has a different perspective.

We are in agreement except that relativity of space and time and acceleration are new ideas , and relativity of interpretations is also a new idea. Theists believe in one Truth out there to be, God willing, discovered. Theists are disappearing from the world stage and are being replaced by relativists. You can just about put a date to the paradigm shift which dates from the work of Einstein and no earlier.

I feel loyal toward Xianity as most of the good people in my formative years have been Xians. Anyway I think Xianity is not dead especially since its basic moral tenet is mainstream among free peoples.But Xianity has to keep up with the times.
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Lacewing
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Re: Smart Christianity / Dumb Christianity

Post by Lacewing »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:51 am
Lacewing wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:06 am Whose perspective is accurate about what is inherent to Christianity when interpretations/beliefs vary across locations and centuries?
The fact that you're talking about "interpretations" and "perspective" answers your own question. A "perspective" is a viewpoint ON something. What is that "something" if not Christianity? And "interpretation" is somebody's reading of what a text says. That means there's a text. And for a start, any "interpretation" that doesn't fit the text is out.
Texts vary. Interpretations vary. Perspectives vary. I cannot imagine living in such an absolute "known" world as you claim to. To me, it would feel contrived. Although you may never admit that your claims are contrived, the fact that you deploy dishonesty as often as you do reveals what you refuse (or are unable) to acknowledge, as well as revealing the lengths you'll go to in protecting it. Which, of course, is a tactic often used for theism.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Smart Christianity / Dumb Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Lacewing wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:41 pm Texts vary.
Not this one, really. It gets retranslated, but if there ever was a studied, cautiously translated, preserved text, especially one of this length and antiquity, then there's no rival candidate.

But interpretations vary. And that's the fault of human beings, not of God. There are right and wrong interpretations, of course.
Dubious
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Re: Smart Christianity / Dumb Christianity

Post by Dubious »

Belinda wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:22 am This is one main reason we can discuss philosophies, because each of us has a different perspective.

We are in agreement except that relativity of space and time and acceleration are new ideas , and relativity of interpretations is also a new idea. Theists believe in one Truth out there to be, God willing, discovered. Theists are disappearing from the world stage and are being replaced by relativists. You can just about put a date to the paradigm shift which dates from the work of Einstein and no earlier.
You're certainly right about each of us having a different perspective which simply amounts to one's personal view of the world. As self-aware conscious beings this would be an automatic response to the world at large.

As for a paradigm shift that dates from the work of Einstein and no earlier is a view I thoroughly disagree with, the shift already having started in the 2nd half of the 19th century which Einstein and others were the inheritor of but that's a separate subject not compatible with the OP.
Dubious
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Re: Smart Christianity / Dumb Christianity

Post by Dubious »

Total dishonesty and a complete subterfuge of logic is all that's left to defend theism. There are no credible means left to deploy in its defense except one, that belief per se, does not necessitate fact.
Belinda
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Re: Smart Christianity / Dumb Christianity

Post by Belinda »

Dubious wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:49 pm
Belinda wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:22 am This is one main reason we can discuss philosophies, because each of us has a different perspective.

We are in agreement except that relativity of space and time and acceleration are new ideas , and relativity of interpretations is also a new idea. Theists believe in one Truth out there to be, God willing, discovered. Theists are disappearing from the world stage and are being replaced by relativists. You can just about put a date to the paradigm shift which dates from the work of Einstein and no earlier.
You're certainly right about each of us having a different perspective which simply amounts to one's personal view of the world. As self-aware conscious beings this would be an automatic response to the world at large.

As for a paradigm shift that dates from the work of Einstein and no earlier is a view I thoroughly disagree with, the shift already having started in the 2nd half of the 19th century which Einstein and others were the inheritor of but that's a separate subject not compatible with the OP.
I can't disagree with you. Would you agree relativity in science influenced relativity in theology; and generally, the belief is relative to the culture of time and place, and even to the perspective of the individual?
Dubious
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Re: Smart Christianity / Dumb Christianity

Post by Dubious »

Belinda wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:51 amI can't disagree with you. Would you agree relativity in science influenced relativity in theology;
No! Frankly I can't see what the connection is or what the theory of relativity has to do with theology. Even now most people have very little or no knowledge of Relativity so why would it have any relevance to one's religious beliefs? But even if that weren't the case how would that influence their theology? Also, I don't know what you mean by "relativity in theology" which is invariably fixed in its own dogma. The slow dismemberment of theism already began in the beginning of the 19th century and certainly suffered a major blow with Darwin much more so than anything Einstein came up with.
Belinda wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:51 am...and generally, the belief is relative to the culture of time and place, and even to the perspective of the individual?
I would say yes to both as long the perspective of the individual didn't deviate too much from the rooted culture of the period which usually forced compliance to its official creeds.
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